Trump

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Re: Trump

Post by Santi » Sun, 19. Jan 20, 20:03

@Grim Lock

In that case in will have more to do with the transfer of technology than with free trade, as China is a country that continuously disregard patents and copyright rights and the Trump administration is actively seeking to make it difficult for China to acquire the "know how" on how to produce them.


@Illegal immigration

There are many reasons why people oppose it and many others reasons specific to each country. People has been shock by images of immigrants packed up like sardines in holding cells and in overcrowded centers in the USA, but the same images has been happening in Italy, Spain or Greece, specially while the NGO ships were operating in the Mediterranean. It is not out of malice but out of an immigration system that has been overloaded.

The USA case is clear, Trump enabled a 0 tolerance policy against illegal immigrants, and the system collapsed. Not enough centers to accomodate people, not enough staff to process them, and more so as illegal immigration patterns change to adapt to government measures. Right now we have seen a massive increase in illegal immigrants that are under age, because most governments have to take them under custody and care for them, that is costing a lot of money and will in the future.

Previously illegal immigrants on the long run were profitable for the USA, right now it cannot be said the same. Add the loss of manufacturing jobs and industries that were the next step up from working in catering, construction and domestic jobs, and you have a huge population of illegal immigrants locked in low paid jobs for the foreseeable future, and getting paid less as more of them come into the country, with the consequences that it will have in their children chances for higher education and their dependency in State or Federal help.

And the higher the number of illegal immigrants you have, the harder it is to integrated them into your society, thus creating a multicultural society of "have" and "have not", of different cultural views like the role of women, or changing dramatically the cultural landscape of places. Long term this can cause a lot of social problems.

All these, are factors that people may think when voting for Trump for the simple reason that he was the one with a clear policy regarding illegal immigration, Hillary did not address this issue in a satisfactory manner because it is an unpopular subject with her voters, kind of tabu when you talk about border control and deportation in fact. And right now, nobody has come up with a better solution, the USA, Europe, Australia, Canada etc. all have the same policy, low rates for approval of resident permits, border control and deportation. Sad as it is.
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Re: Trump

Post by Observe » Sun, 19. Jan 20, 21:57

@Santi: Well put ^.

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Re: Trump

Post by Grim Lock » Sun, 19. Jan 20, 22:09

Santi wrote:
Sun, 19. Jan 20, 20:03
@Grim Lock

In that case in will have more to do with the transfer of technology than with free trade, as China is a country that continuously disregard patents and copyright rights and the Trump administration is actively seeking to make it difficult for China to acquire the "know how" on how to produce them.
And they will gain that know-how in this case by paying a company and thus getting it legitimately instead of through spying or disregarding patents. But that;s not my my problem, my problem is that it's none of Trumps business to who we do and don't legally sell OUR products to, if my government decides for whatever reason to not grant the export license that's our right (unless ofcourse it goes against existing global trade rules obviously), if however they wanted to give the license but don't due to the interference of the US, then i've got a massive problem with that, especially given the shit-storm of playground insults by Trump whenever a foreign leaders dares say something the orange baby can't handle. It's about the massive hypocrisy of it all. So yeah, Trump and the meddling in our internal politics can kindly F off.
Last edited by Grim Lock on Mon, 20. Jan 20, 00:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trump

Post by Mightysword » Sun, 19. Jan 20, 22:32

In the US it's an example of something that could have been solved but purposely left unsolved due to ulterior motives. Economy, job, security ...etc... are what matter to the voters, and thus given out as the "reasons" on the surface. But I don't believe any of those matter to politicians. Immigration has always been about one thing: the voting calculus. Republican see a fast expanding immigrant population as a threat to their voting majority, while Democrat want to use it as fuel to expand and catch up with other voting based (I had posted the statistic before: despite the volume in mainstream channel, in term of political affiliation and ideology alignment, Democrat/Left trail behind both Republican/Right and Noparty/Neutral among the populate).

In the US, illegal immigrant issue has two facets: border control and a path to legal residency. And I believe if our politician truly want to solve it, they can, as long as they genuinely approach both facets equally. The problem is they don't. Republican want to make legal residency difficult so the voting bloc that's not favor them don't grow too fast. At first glance Democrat may look like the good guy for advocating a pathway, and their argument is sounded on that front (i.e how immigrant add to the economy). For me another reason is illegal immigrant had become too ingrates and too big to solve, providing a pathway for those who willing to contribute is a sensible choice to make the best of out a bad situation. So naturally, I would "almost" agree with Democrat ... until I saw the flip side or rather - true purpose - behind their intention. Democrat doesn't want border control, and always beat around the bush on that issue. Like I said, I don't believe other issues matters to them, or rather the most important thing to them is they see it as a potential feeding ground. I'm guessing Democrat envision that with pathway created while the border control is kept in a weaken state and porous, that will lend them a direct life line to grow to one day become the undisputed dominance party in the US.

I remember when I arrived in the US almost 2 decades ago people already talked about this, and back then the "motto" for this issue was: secure the border, then we'll have legal pathway. It was - in my opinion - a very reasonable compromise that would only require genuine efforts from both side to solve. And fast forward 20 years later what once a moderate wound that could have been treated now fester. Frankly I doubt we can solve it now, the toxicity and hypercharge partisan had pretty much suck up all the good will and compromise that's necessary to solve this issue for good. What we gonna see now and in the future is simply a ping pong game depending on who in power: Trump is building a wall now, and if the next president is a Democrat I expect some push on the pathway front, I doubt we will see both issue are compromise and work in tandem any time soon. :shock:

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Re: Trump

Post by RegisterMe » Sun, 19. Jan 20, 23:32

@Massterbagger, if you're right that the US spent $50b on the education of illegal immigrant children and / or the children of illegal immigrants, then given that the US Federal budget in 2019 was ~$4.45 trillion, that means that the US spent about 1.1% of its Federal budget (so not including state budgets) on....

....teaching children....

... maths, English, history, geography, chemistry, physics, (given that it's the US possibly not biology), citizenship, sports, art, Spanish, coding, law, business studies, cooking and so on and so fourth....

If you want to kick them all out, then sure, that's not money well spent. If you want to turn them into Americans, I doubt there's more bang for the buck available.
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Re: Trump

Post by Santi » Mon, 20. Jan 20, 03:25

@Grim Lock

ASML has already been the victim of technological theft, and while the evidence is circumstantial it does point to the Chinese. It also is true that the USA or other any country can, on a political level, try to discourage the selling of certain items, it is just politics and by what I read, so far the USA is making pressure and sharing some intel reports, it is not making any threats. On the other hand the Chinese counterpart already has said that bilateral relations between the Dutch and China may suffer if the sale is not going ahead. You are right that if the sale goes ahead, Trump may take some issue with it and then bilateral relations with USA will suffer.


@Illegal immigration

Regarding education, while it is the correct thing to do, it means also a shift that illegal immigrants are now a long time investment, the USA will not see the benefits of it till ten or fifteen years in the future. And that is not guarantee because the majority will not be able to afford higher education without government help, and here is where money gets very tricky to get. Because many Americans cannot afford higher education either, and get no help.

It is not a racial issue but one of means available to help illegal immigrants balanced against the means to help USA citizens. And this has become an issue where it was none before because, the number of illegal immigrants has kept growing, more of them are under age and the number of jobs available for them is on the down due to automation.
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Re: Trump

Post by Observe » Mon, 20. Jan 20, 04:12

If we are a country based on the rule of law, we cannot allow illegal immigrants. We have set our quotas and procedures for legal immigration as have most countries.

In the case of asylum, the person should petition the first country they enter outside the one they are fleeing. They should not walk thousands of miles, crossing multiple countries and then expect the United States to be their haven.

Refugees are another matter. Ideally, they would be given temporary shelter by various nations, with the intention to return to their homeland once things stabilize there. They should not be looking at permanent homes unless return is not possible in the foreseeable future.

Children born here are citizens by birth, even if their parents are of illegal status. It doesn't make sense to deport the parents in such situations. Every system has loopholes that some/many will try to navigate. Not much we can do about it once they get here.
Santi wrote:It is not a racial issue but one of means available to help illegal immigrants balanced against the means to help USA citizens. And this has become an issue where it was none before because, the number of illegal immigrants has kept growing, more of them are under age and the number of jobs available for them is on the down due to automation.
Definitely, we cannot have a come-one-come-all open border.

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Re: Trump

Post by Grim Lock » Mon, 20. Jan 20, 13:04

Santi wrote:
Mon, 20. Jan 20, 03:25
@Grim Lock

ASML has already been the victim of technological theft, and while the evidence is circumstantial it does point to the Chinese. It also is true that the USA or other any country can, on a political level, try to discourage the selling of certain items, it is just politics and by what I read, so far the USA is making pressure and sharing some intel reports, it is not making any threats. On the other hand the Chinese counterpart already has said that bilateral relations between the Dutch and China may suffer if the sale is not going ahead. You are right that if the sale goes ahead, Trump may take some issue with it and then bilateral relations with USA will suffer.
Your interpretation of the pressure the US is putting on us is the mildest one possible, but again it's about the hypocrisy as i already pointed out, you KNOW how Trump and his followers react to even the slightest suggestion from their what are supposed to be their allies, so STILL the US can F off.

Also any political pressure from a country of 300million on a country of 17million is gonna be pretty severe anyway.

And at this point i'm not so sure who is a worse world-power the US or China, with all the market manipulation the US does and has been doing, deals the US have broken, actions the US has taken purely to strengthen their hold on the globe in their personal favor. Commercially the chinese are more predictable and reliable currently.
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Re: Trump

Post by Santi » Mon, 20. Jan 20, 20:11

I may be misinformed as to the amount of pressure by the USA, as most of what I read regarding the issue was from international sources that will not have the depth that the Dutch own press will have. Still, it is a fairly common occurrence for technology does have double use (civilian and military). And political and economic pressure is not in technology only but is present in many other cases, as an example, Vladimir Tsemakh, who is a suspect in the case of the MH17 aircraft crash and became part of a prisoner exchange under pressure from Moscow, while Ukraine was putting pressure in the Dutch government so it was not included in the exchange.

It is part of international politics, lets not forget that at heart, countries are competing against each other and negotiating to gain an advantage for their own country, and allies is not a term that I will apply to relations between Europe and the USA for many decades now or between any country at that.

Trump and part of America citizens have the perception that the USA, has been giving ground to the rest of the world, this was reinforced by part of the press and was a common accusation against Obama by his detractors. In this matter Trump from the start set the agenda to "make America great again", that all decisions taken will put American interests first. Trump is just sticking to what was an electoral promise, of course in a hazy, chaotic, crude, inconsistent way, but we know he is not a portent when it comes to diplomacy.
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Re: Trump

Post by RegisterMe » Mon, 20. Jan 20, 21:10

@Devin Nunes - Hah hah hah hah hah hah you useless lying cretin.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Trump

Post by RegisterMe » Wed, 22. Jan 20, 00:59

Just watching Schiff's statement to the Senate, and I think he made a misstep. A few times he referred to ".... the President's misconduct". I'm no lawyer, or judge, but if this is a trial wouldn't he have been better off not prejudging the outcome? I mean I agree with him, but the optics would have been better if he'd said ".... the President's conduct (subtext - it's up to you, Senate, to determine whether it's misconduct - history is on you)".
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Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Thu, 23. Jan 20, 10:29

RegisterMe wrote:
Wed, 22. Jan 20, 00:59
Just watching Schiff's statement to the Senate, and I think he made a misstep. A few times he referred to ".... the President's misconduct". I'm no lawyer, or judge, but if this is a trial wouldn't he have been better off not prejudging the outcome? I mean I agree with him, but the optics would have been better if he'd said ".... the President's conduct (subtext - it's up to you, Senate, to determine whether it's misconduct - history is on you)".
Well, Schiff isn't a juror and the rapist's lawyer has and will argue that Trump didn't do anything wrong. Besides, labeling something as "misconduct" can mean anything from lobbing an insult to mass murder. I don't see a problem with using that term as it carries no significance towards a verdict as it's so nondescript. The specifics have been laid out for the charges against Trump which say far more.
"If we had confidence the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so. We did not, however, make a determination as to whether the president did commit a crime." - Robert Muller, May 29, 2019

"Complete and total exoneration" - Donald Trump, March 24, 2019

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Re: Trump

Post by RegisterMe » Thu, 23. Jan 20, 21:46

Sylvia Garcia is not somebody you might describe as eloquent.
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Re: Trump

Post by felter » Thu, 23. Jan 20, 21:51

Does anyone else find it funny that the American Government is running scared from a 17 year old tiny school girl. They have no idea how to deal with her that they are literally turning to name calling. Meanwhile she is getting more attention from the worlds leaders, while the US Government is getting ignored and demonised.

:lol:

What is Trump up to now, as he has decided that Americans do not deserve clean drinkable water, he has decided to roll back water protection allowing the pollution of US water without fear of reprisals.
BBC wrote:Under the new regulations, landowners and property developers will be able to pour pesticides, fertilizers and other pollutants directly into millions of miles of the nation's waterways for the first time in decades.
Happy water drinking America.
I'm not saying he is a Russian asset, I'm saying he sat on his asset when he was supposed to be confronting Putin.
He will not be re-elected. Without a wall, he will only be remembered as a small cartoon figure who briefly inflamed and amused the rabble.

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Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Thu, 23. Jan 20, 22:37

felter wrote:
Thu, 23. Jan 20, 21:51
Does anyone else find it funny that the American Government is running scared from a 17 year old tiny school girl. They have no idea how to deal with her that they are literally turning to name calling. Meanwhile she is getting more attention from the worlds leaders, while the US Government is getting ignored and demonised.

:lol:

What is Trump up to now, as he has decided that Americans do not deserve clean drinkable water, he has decided to roll back water protection allowing the pollution of US water without fear of reprisals.
BBC wrote:Under the new regulations, landowners and property developers will be able to pour pesticides, fertilizers and other pollutants directly into millions of miles of the nation's waterways for the first time in decades.
Happy water drinking America.
Profits > People, it's the republican way. But it just goes to show that Trump doesn't give a rats ass about anyone.

I really wish I could understand this obsession the right has about treating businesses as if they're people and wants to give them more rights and protections than people.
"If we had confidence the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so. We did not, however, make a determination as to whether the president did commit a crime." - Robert Muller, May 29, 2019

"Complete and total exoneration" - Donald Trump, March 24, 2019

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