Trump

Anything not relating to the X-Universe games (general tech talk, other games...) belongs here. Please read the rules before posting.

Moderator: Moderators for English X Forum

Vertigo 7
Posts: 1593
Joined: Fri, 14. Jan 11, 18:30
x4

Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Tue, 10. Dec 19, 00:03

Observe wrote:
Mon, 9. Dec 19, 22:57
Far too much fake outrage on both sides. Part of the problem, is that there is no clear definition for what is an impeachable offense. Some see Trump's actions as impeachable, others see them as politics as usual and unworthy of a second thought; let alone impeachment. Each side is sticking to their respective fictional narrative. Putting aside partisan agendas, the case should be obvious, but how many politicians and spectators are able to put politics aside? Some go by the creed that all things are fair in love and war. Others beat the drum of ethics, but the sound of that drum, often depends on which narrative one is prone to.

We are all stuck in a story not of our own making. :)
I think, though, knowing the kind of person Trump is, it's fair to question his motives when there's no clear justification or legal standing for his actions. Throw in what Rudy Colludy is doing and what others have testified to, it becomes pretty clear that Trump was just being Trump and trying to game the system for his own purposes. And that's really the thing. Trump trying to extort a foreign country for his own ends is completely within his character. Trump showing concern for corruption is laughable at best.
In my work with the defendants (at the Nuremberg Trials 1945-1949) I was searching for the nature of evil and I now think I have come close to defining it. A lack of empathy. It’s the one characteristic that connects all the defendants, a genuine incapacity to feel with their fellow men.

Evil, I think, is the absence of empathy.
Captain Gustave M. Gilbert

User avatar
Observe
Posts: 2922
Joined: Fri, 30. Dec 05, 18:47
xr

Re: Trump

Post by Observe » Tue, 10. Dec 19, 02:11

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Tue, 10. Dec 19, 00:03
I think, though, knowing the kind of person Trump is, it's fair to question his motives when there's no clear justification or legal standing for his actions. Throw in what Rudy Colludy is doing and what others have testified to, it becomes pretty clear that Trump was just being Trump and trying to game the system for his own purposes. And that's really the thing. Trump trying to extort a foreign country for his own ends is completely within his character. Trump showing concern for corruption is laughable at best.
Right, but is any of that impeachable? Seeking dirt on an opponent is as old as the hills. Seeking such information from a foreign government is different than a foreign government deliberately trying to influence an election of their own accord for their own reasons. Some say what Trump did, is worse than Watergate. Others say it is just water under the bridge of no particular concern. Who is right?

Certainly, those who hate Trump, will latch onto this as their stairway to heaven. Those who love Trump, will explain it all away as a pathetic attempt by Democrats to overturn a duly elected President. Much of the rhetoric is dogs barking at the moon.

We will see. Personally, I doubt Trump will be impeached by the Senate, but this will harm his chances in the next election. Eventually, the Democrats will occupy the White House and I expect their vengeance will be without mercy. Hopefully, we will get a President who understands the challenges our society will have as we confront the future where more and more people become less and less relevant.

Vertigo 7
Posts: 1593
Joined: Fri, 14. Jan 11, 18:30
x4

Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Tue, 10. Dec 19, 02:21

Observe wrote:
Tue, 10. Dec 19, 02:11
Vertigo 7 wrote:
Tue, 10. Dec 19, 00:03
I think, though, knowing the kind of person Trump is, it's fair to question his motives when there's no clear justification or legal standing for his actions. Throw in what Rudy Colludy is doing and what others have testified to, it becomes pretty clear that Trump was just being Trump and trying to game the system for his own purposes. And that's really the thing. Trump trying to extort a foreign country for his own ends is completely within his character. Trump showing concern for corruption is laughable at best.
Right, but is any of that impeachable? Seeking dirt on an opponent is as old as the hills. Seeking such information from a foreign government is different than a foreign government deliberately trying to influence an election of their own accord for their own reasons. Some say what Trump did, is worse than Watergate. Others say it is just water under the bridge of no particular concern. Who is right?

Certainly, those who hate Trump, will latch onto this as their stairway to heaven. Those who love Trump, will explain it all away as a pathetic attempt by Democrats to overturn a duly elected President. Much of the rhetoric is dogs barking at the moon.

We will see. Personally, I doubt Trump will be impeached by the Senate, but this will harm his chances in the next election. Eventually, the Democrats will occupy the White House and I expect their vengeance will be without mercy. Hopefully, we will get a President who understands the challenges our society will have as we confront the future where more and more people become less and less relevant.
The thing is, to me, at least, it doesn't matter who the president is. Trump, Obama, Bush, any of them... if they make themselves a pawn of Russia, if they corrupt and/or invite corruption into our elections, burn em all at the steak whoever it may be. Whether or not Trump was a detestable bastard before any of this is irrelevant other than to show his character. As if that in of itself wasn't enough, obstructing congress, violating impoundment and control, and the subsequent cover up, why should he get a pass?
In my work with the defendants (at the Nuremberg Trials 1945-1949) I was searching for the nature of evil and I now think I have come close to defining it. A lack of empathy. It’s the one characteristic that connects all the defendants, a genuine incapacity to feel with their fellow men.

Evil, I think, is the absence of empathy.
Captain Gustave M. Gilbert

User avatar
Observe
Posts: 2922
Joined: Fri, 30. Dec 05, 18:47
xr

Re: Trump

Post by Observe » Tue, 10. Dec 19, 02:49

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Tue, 10. Dec 19, 02:21
The thing is, to me, at least, it doesn't matter who the president is. Trump, Obama, Bush, any of them... if they make themselves a pawn of Russia, if they corrupt and/or invite corruption into our elections, burn em all at the steak whoever it may be. Whether or not Trump was a detestable bastard before any of this is irrelevant other than to show his character. As if that in of itself wasn't enough, obstructing congress, violating impoundment and control, and the subsequent cover up, why should he get a pass?
Putin sees the world as a chessboard, while many others see it as a game of tic-tac-toe. We can't make ourselves a pawn of Russia, because we don't know how to play chess. As for the obstruction charge, Trump did many things to influence investigations into him and his aides, but legal scholars are in disagreement over whether what he did falls under the definition of obstruction.

It seems that Trump has spent much of his life dancing around the legal jungle. It might be said that he has a natural skill for flipping the middle finger at a system that is full of holes waiting to be exploited when convenient.

For sure he is on slippery ground, but whether or not he crossed that wide grey area of legal, impeachable lines is uncertain. The answers are not unanimous and I doubt they will become so. This will fizzle out.

Vertigo 7
Posts: 1593
Joined: Fri, 14. Jan 11, 18:30
x4

Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Tue, 10. Dec 19, 04:07

Observe wrote:
Tue, 10. Dec 19, 02:49
Vertigo 7 wrote:
Tue, 10. Dec 19, 02:21
The thing is, to me, at least, it doesn't matter who the president is. Trump, Obama, Bush, any of them... if they make themselves a pawn of Russia, if they corrupt and/or invite corruption into our elections, burn em all at the steak whoever it may be. Whether or not Trump was a detestable bastard before any of this is irrelevant other than to show his character. As if that in of itself wasn't enough, obstructing congress, violating impoundment and control, and the subsequent cover up, why should he get a pass?
Putin sees the world as a chessboard, while many others see it as a game of tic-tac-toe. We can't make ourselves a pawn of Russia, because we don't know how to play chess. As for the obstruction charge, Trump did many things to influence investigations into him and his aides, but legal scholars are in disagreement over whether what he did falls under the definition of obstruction.

It seems that Trump has spent much of his life dancing around the legal jungle. It might be said that he has a natural skill for flipping the middle finger at a system that is full of holes waiting to be exploited when convenient.

For sure he is on slippery ground, but whether or not he crossed that wide grey area of legal, impeachable lines is uncertain. The answers are not unanimous and I doubt they will become so. This will fizzle out.
It's not just the influencing of investigations that amounts to obstruction, the blatant refusal to comply with subpoenas is grounds enough.

That also doesn't address his violation of impoundment and control, which is directly tied to Article 1, section 9, clause 7 of the constitution. The whole purpose of impoundment and control was to prevent a president from doing shady things with appropriated funds and hiding it from congress.

I doubt this will fizzle out anytime soon. If we're lucky, it'll be after the next election. I've said before, dems have shot themselves in the foot on a few things, and even today with the revelation of the tying of phone numbers back to reporters and members of congress that were published, I'll side with the republicans on that. But the charges against Trump have merit, either way.
In my work with the defendants (at the Nuremberg Trials 1945-1949) I was searching for the nature of evil and I now think I have come close to defining it. A lack of empathy. It’s the one characteristic that connects all the defendants, a genuine incapacity to feel with their fellow men.

Evil, I think, is the absence of empathy.
Captain Gustave M. Gilbert

Mightysword
Posts: 2769
Joined: Wed, 10. Mar 04, 06:11
x3tc

Re: Trump

Post by Mightysword » Tue, 10. Dec 19, 04:54

Observe wrote:
Sat, 7. Dec 19, 18:37
It should be pretty obvious that different people have different ideas and views. It should also be obvious, that most of us do not choose our thoughts or feelings. Therefore, not much point lambasting each other over personal differences that we have no control over. Better to embrace those things that we have in common and find ways to have respectful discussions where we differ. The old way is to rage about how my fictional story is better than yours. This only leads to further division.
I gotta say I'm a bit impressed by the last few post you made, starting with this one. They are a bit more mellowout and I dare even say ... objectively neutral comparing to the stuffs you used to post. I'm curious if there was a reason for this shift? :)

Of course I agree with most of the things you just said. Similarly, in the past couple month a certain someone had said a few thing that I wish he had said when he was the president. Obama gave the field of Democrat candidate a warning that the average voters would want realistic improvement to their life, not the whole sale "burn down the house and change it overnight" like some of the leading candidate are advocating. In a separate interview (I think with the BBC) he also cautioned about the "cancel" culture that had been pretty much dominated activism and politic in the last decade or so. Whenever people (especially online) raveling at a canceled figure, I often ask myself: do you think you just help ridding of the world a racist/sexist/bigot/whatever, or you actually just helped creating a more bitter/entrenched copy underground? Some people might say there is nothing to understand there, zero tolerance and all that. To them I say we live in a society that even a mass murderer or serial rapist are still entitled to a fair trial, and the society is still obligated to listen to their defense before passing judgement. It's ... kinda hard to get that across when often if someone stand up for the right of a murderer to a fair trial, they will often labeled as supporting murdering. A conduct that's not uncommon in a thread like this. There is someone in this thread that whatever I brought this up, always seem to assume "trying to understand something is the same thing as agreeing with it". ;)

And frankly that's the core of the issue - the refusal to acknowledge. If politic were as civil as it was 20-30 years ago, we wouldn't even have to worry about Trump, you don't have to remove him if he's not the president to begin with, right? I had always said I care less about what Trump does as the president - that is a short term issue, and more concern about the fact that he became a President in the first place - to me that's the long term and if we're not careful of the path we tread, it can become a chronic issue. You can remove Trump, but you can't remove the culture that elect him, and both the left and the right had a hand in creating that culture. Trump may be in his own unique league right now, and I bet a lot people hope he's a one off thing. But I'm afraid that unless our political culture changes, and as long as individuals believe their laundry list of virtues give them the right to ignore while passing judgement on everyone disagree with them, then at a point not too far in the future a president like Trump will become the norm rather than an exception. If one thing history teach us: traditional and norm once broken -no matter what the justification for the occasion is - often never go back to what it was before.

And that prospect scares me more than stuffs like Trump has access to the country nuclear launch code. :shock:

I remember as most people on the left was celebrating the white house leak a few months back in how it made a fool out of Trump, Obama was one of the few leaders, if not the only leader from the left that came out denouncing it. You know, I didn't have much respect for Obama when he was the president, but if he is allowed to run again I might vote for him. That's why you recent string of post kinda remind me of the same shift, ever since leaving the WH Obama has been saying the right thing, he's a bit more mellow out and speaking more objectively. In another word, I feel now he talks more as a the leader of American rather than as the leader of the left.

Vertigo 7
Posts: 1593
Joined: Fri, 14. Jan 11, 18:30
x4

Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Tue, 10. Dec 19, 19:14

2 articles of impeachment have been written, Abuse of Power and Obstruction of Congress. There may be a full vote by the house on Thursday.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/10/us/p ... icles.html
In my work with the defendants (at the Nuremberg Trials 1945-1949) I was searching for the nature of evil and I now think I have come close to defining it. A lack of empathy. It’s the one characteristic that connects all the defendants, a genuine incapacity to feel with their fellow men.

Evil, I think, is the absence of empathy.
Captain Gustave M. Gilbert

Bishop149
Posts: 1852
Joined: Fri, 9. Apr 04, 21:19
x3

Re: Trump

Post by Bishop149 » Wed, 11. Dec 19, 12:19

**** me, this is TERRIFYING.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/10/us/p ... order.html

This is something with a long dark history, in every other case where a State has classified Judaism as a "nationality" it was a prelude to an attempt at ethnic cleansing.
Nationality is a MUCH easier route to "these people don't belong here" than faith.
Jewish people are rightfully horrified by this.
Last edited by Bishop149 on Wed, 11. Dec 19, 18:14, edited 1 time in total.
"Shoot for the Moon. If you miss, you'll end up co-orbiting the Sun alongside Earth, living out your days alone in the void within sight of the lush, welcoming home you left behind." - XKCD

User avatar
Olterin
Posts: 677
Joined: Fri, 27. Feb 09, 21:34
xr

Re: Trump

Post by Olterin » Wed, 11. Dec 19, 14:34

It doesn't help things that the State of Israel was founded on the premise of being a state for Jewish people (also see: the Israel flag) - it further reinforces the argument that Judaism is as much a nationality as it is a religion. I really don't want to get into that particular debate since I don't know enough history on this particular matter, but I do want to point out that there is in fact a legitimate way of arguing that way. I'm not going to say it's great, given the 20th century history, though.

... With that said, I also believe each case deserves being examined individually - and from at least that particular article it would seem there is discrimination going on already. Not addressing the matter is certainly unhelpful, so then the question becomes "is this the right way to address the matter?" (with a side question of "is President Trump doing this for his own political gain and will backtrack the moment it is convenient or is he actually doing it to 'speed up' the seemingly stalling political process (or another reason entirely)"). It being an executive order gives it less of a long-lasting effect that enshrining the same thing in legislation, I would think.
"Do or do not, there is no try"
"My Other Overwhelming Mixed Assault Fleet is a Brigantine" -Seleucius, commenting on my ship naming scheme

Vertigo 7
Posts: 1593
Joined: Fri, 14. Jan 11, 18:30
x4

Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Wed, 11. Dec 19, 17:02

Trump has made it pretty obvious that he doesn't understand or care about Jewish people. His "dual-loyalty" and "brutal killers" statements are proof enough of that. Any symbolic move he made towards Israel was nothing more than an attempt at securing support/money from Jewish citizens in the US as well as further cement his relationship with Evangelicals.

Evangelicals have been sending money to Israel for decades with the belief that recognition of Israel as a Jewish state hails the 2nd coming of Jesus, which of course, signals the beginning of the Apocalypse.
In my work with the defendants (at the Nuremberg Trials 1945-1949) I was searching for the nature of evil and I now think I have come close to defining it. A lack of empathy. It’s the one characteristic that connects all the defendants, a genuine incapacity to feel with their fellow men.

Evil, I think, is the absence of empathy.
Captain Gustave M. Gilbert

User avatar
felter
Posts: 761
Joined: Sat, 9. Nov 02, 19:13
xr

Re: Trump

Post by felter » Wed, 11. Dec 19, 20:36

That is really bad and really badly thought out, whoever thought it up was a complete idiot, due to that I would probably say that it was trumps own idea. It stinks of hypocrisy and bigotry, not to mention that it is totally anti-American in the sense that it sides with Israel before America. I can see it being challenged in the courts and losing that battle big time. By the way any American Christians out there, this is an attack on your religion as it says a Christian cannot say anything against Judaism or Israel, while someone of the Jewish faith can say what they want about Christianity, Americans or America with impunity.

Both Republicans and Democrats are up in arms against it.

Meanwhile Trumps own re-election group, made Trump out to be Thanos from the avengers. Whoever thought of that one is as much an idiot as the person who thought of the above idea. In case you didn't know Thanos is the ultimate bad guy who kills half of all living things in the Universe, and that is how they think of Trump, they even use the scene where he does it. The people behind the film they have stolen it from, are not too happy about it either.
Stay at home, stay inside but most importantly stay safe.

Vertigo 7
Posts: 1593
Joined: Fri, 14. Jan 11, 18:30
x4

Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Wed, 11. Dec 19, 22:04

felter wrote:
Wed, 11. Dec 19, 20:36
Meanwhile Trumps own re-election group, made Trump out to be Thanos from the avengers. Whoever thought of that one is as much an idiot as the person who thought of the above idea. In case you didn't know Thanos is the ultimate bad guy who kills half of all living things in the Universe, and that is how they think of Trump, they even use the scene where he does it. The people behind the film they have stolen it from, are not too happy about it either.
I can't criticize that toooooo much since I even said a while back that if Trump and his minions were Thanos'd off the planet, I'm not sure if I wouldn't care or would celebrate. But this is also another attempt from Trump to appeal to younger voters with a pop culture reference. He did something similar with Game of Thrones a while back. It also feeds into the followers' desires to see blood drawn in Trump's name.
In my work with the defendants (at the Nuremberg Trials 1945-1949) I was searching for the nature of evil and I now think I have come close to defining it. A lack of empathy. It’s the one characteristic that connects all the defendants, a genuine incapacity to feel with their fellow men.

Evil, I think, is the absence of empathy.
Captain Gustave M. Gilbert

User avatar
felter
Posts: 761
Joined: Sat, 9. Nov 02, 19:13
xr

Re: Trump

Post by felter » Wed, 11. Dec 19, 22:40

It's not so much what they have done, it's more the character that they picked, seeing as Thanos is probably the most evil character that they could have chosen, they picked him anyway which is them saying, Trump is Thanos, the most evil person on the planet. It's not exactly a good way to portray someone.
Stay at home, stay inside but most importantly stay safe.

Vertigo 7
Posts: 1593
Joined: Fri, 14. Jan 11, 18:30
x4

Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Wed, 11. Dec 19, 23:17

felter wrote:
Wed, 11. Dec 19, 22:40
It's not so much what they have done, it's more the character that they picked, seeing as Thanos is probably the most evil character that they could have chosen, they picked him anyway which is them saying, Trump is Thanos, the most evil person on the planet. It's not exactly a good way to portray someone.
lol Well... Thanos being "evil" is somewhat debatable, but this isn't the thread for MCU theory spinning. But, totally, the intent of suggesting that Trump is going to wipe democrats off the planet is pretty twisted and more evidence of the fascism he and his cult members embody.
In my work with the defendants (at the Nuremberg Trials 1945-1949) I was searching for the nature of evil and I now think I have come close to defining it. A lack of empathy. It’s the one characteristic that connects all the defendants, a genuine incapacity to feel with their fellow men.

Evil, I think, is the absence of empathy.
Captain Gustave M. Gilbert

Vertigo 7
Posts: 1593
Joined: Fri, 14. Jan 11, 18:30
x4

Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Thu, 12. Dec 19, 03:51

I swear, I can't get a read on Lindsey Graham.
It was the Russians, ladies and gentleman, who stole the Democratic National Committee emails, Podesta’s emails, and screwed around with Hillary Clinton. It wasn’t the Ukrainians. it was the Russians. And they’re coming after us again.
This is Trump's and the house republicans' favorite bedtime story, and Graham takes a dump all over it. Anybody able to make heads or tails of him?
In my work with the defendants (at the Nuremberg Trials 1945-1949) I was searching for the nature of evil and I now think I have come close to defining it. A lack of empathy. It’s the one characteristic that connects all the defendants, a genuine incapacity to feel with their fellow men.

Evil, I think, is the absence of empathy.
Captain Gustave M. Gilbert

Post Reply

Return to “Off Topic English”