Trump

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Alan Phipps
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Re: Trump

Post by Alan Phipps » Thu, 19. Nov 20, 17:10

It is not too late (nor too early) to lock this thread if the exchanges of personal insults and comments continue.
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Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Thu, 19. Nov 20, 17:11

eladan wrote:
Thu, 19. Nov 20, 16:17
RegisterMe wrote:
Wed, 18. Nov 20, 21:25
* Trump pulling out of trade deals eg NAFTA / TPP
IMHO, and as a non-American, Trump's torpedoing of the TPP was one of the few good things he did. Of course, he did it for all the wrong reasons. But I'll still take it.

The problem with the TPP in particular, and other trade deals that the US has spearheaded, is that they have a bad habit of piggy-backing some of their more annoying laws into the deals, to force the rest of the world to have US-style laws. It's how we have utterly ridiculous copyright lengths in the majority of the world now, how they've spread the DMCA beyond the US, and also enabled some corporate sovereignty crap, just to name a few examples. The TPP negotiations were being done in strictest secrecy (which itself rang loud alarm bells) and from what we know of it from rare leaks, there were going to be some particularly unpleasant surprises hidden in it. (Healthcare was one thing mentioned - if that doesn't send shivers down the spine of non-Americans, I don't know what would!) Good riddance.
I don't blame you one bit. Big pharma makes most of it's money on US sales (or that's where their highest profit margins are) and they have no choice but to sell for what trade agreements have in place to countries like Canada and the UK where your governments set the cost of medications. If there's one entity that's to blame for us not having socialized healthcare it's Big Pharma because they don't want to have to drop their drug prices in the US as well. But if the opportunity comes for them to influence trade negotiations to flip that and start chipping away at your own sovereign laws to increase their bottom line, they're gonna do it. And who has Trump been trotting out over the last 8 months on the political stage?
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Re: Trump

Post by matthewfarmery » Thu, 19. Nov 20, 18:03

There is another route that Trump can take, from reports, he has considered attacking Iran, (reports say he was considering it last week) But then again, he has been heightening tensions with Iran. While at the same time, wanting to pull troops from other areas. (like Afghanistan) which would only make things worse in that region. (then again, I never considered that we won the war in that area. So if Trump does withdraw troops, it will be Vietnam for the second time.

Bit if Trump is moving troops to attack Iran, then that might be why. But it would be a huge mistake if he does so. It would certainly lead to full scale war. now even if Trump is kicked out, it will leave Biden in a hell of a mess.

At this stage, I wouldn't put it past Trump to attack Iran, and have it as his legacy.

Until Biden takes over, (if he does) Trump will still have the military on his side.
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Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Thu, 19. Nov 20, 18:16

matthewfarmery wrote:
Thu, 19. Nov 20, 18:03
Until Biden takes over, (if he does) Trump will still have the military on his side.
Under his command and on his side are not the same thing. The joint chiefs are not interested in attacking Iran without cause and they're certainly not interested in pulling out of Afghanistan or Syria. They're pretty much the only ones we have pushing back against Trump and replacing them with loyalists will be difficult to do. He can't just make some random donor a 4 star officer. He can only tap another 4 star to take the post and all of them have been serving a helluva lot longer than Trump has been in office.
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Re: Trump

Post by Mightysword » Thu, 19. Nov 20, 19:56

matthewfarmery wrote:
Thu, 19. Nov 20, 18:03
Until Biden takes over, (if he does) Trump will still have the military on his side.
No, he doesn't lol.

Remember last week or the week before when Trump fired Esper and appointed Miller as the replacement as defense secrectary (which is a civilian appointee). In his very first address with Miller standing right next to him, Gen. Mark Milley (the chairmain of the joint chief of staff, aka the top uniformed official at the Pentagon) said this:

"We are unique among militaries. We do not take an oath to a king or a queen, a tyrant or a dictator. We do not take an oath to an individual. No, we do not take an oath to a country, a tribe or religion. We take an oath to the Constitution. And every soldier that is represented in this museum, every sailor, airman, Marine, Coast Guardsman, each of us will protect and defend that document, regardless of personal price. "


I think a tl;dr version of that statement would be something like "Trump, the military is not your play thing".
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Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Thu, 19. Nov 20, 21:58

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... id=BHEA000

"trust the system" lol... This is probably where we're headed.
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Re: Trump

Post by Warenwolf » Thu, 19. Nov 20, 23:17

Trump allies make frantic steps to overturn Biden victory

https://apnews.com/article/trump-allies ... 55e7af7031

From the article :

"Among other last-ditch tactics: personally calling local election officials who are trying to rescind their certification votes in Michigan, suggesting in a legal challenge that Pennsylvania set aside the popular vote there and pressuring county officials in Arizona to delay certifying vote tallies."

:? Did not know a president could do that without breaking fifty laws and regulations but those are the rules in US apparently.

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Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Thu, 19. Nov 20, 23:22

Warenwolf wrote:
Thu, 19. Nov 20, 23:17
Trump allies make frantic steps to overturn Biden victory

https://apnews.com/article/trump-allies ... 55e7af7031

From the article :

"Among other last-ditch tactics: personally calling local election officials who are trying to rescind their certification votes in Michigan, suggesting in a legal challenge that Pennsylvania set aside the popular vote there and pressuring county officials in Arizona to delay certifying vote tallies."

:? Did not know a president could do that without breaking fifty laws and regulations but those are the rules in US apparently.
Trump breaking laws? noooo... never.

Would it shock you to know he's bringing Michigan's republican legislators to the white house to bribe them into appointing Trump loyalist electors?
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Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Fri, 20. Nov 20, 03:06

Gerogia's recount finished and surprise, surprise, Biden still held the state. Georgia's certification will take place tomorrow. Trump can still request another recount, but it's not going to change anything there.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... id=BHEA000

Meanwhile, Trump and Lindsey Graham both may be violating federal laws regarding election interference by contacting election officials, a crime that carries a prison sentence. Graham is already facing an ethics probe for it. :roll: Democrats need to get off their ass and fight back, that whole pesky "support and defend the constitution" thing they swore to do, even if Trump and Rudy Colludy look like monkeys screwing a football with this coup attempt. The monkeys could still manage to get the ball across the goal line.
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Re: Trump

Post by felter » Fri, 20. Nov 20, 04:36

Joe Biden is needing to grow a set of gonads and start fighting back. He has supposedly said he will not seek justice of any one currently breaking any law, as Trump and republicans try to break the election. To me that is one of the problems, he should be standing up and stating that he will be having investigations into the shenanigans that are currently going on, with the full intention of prosecuting any person that breaks the law, but no he doesn't want to rock the boat. Turns out Biden is just another American idiot.

On a side note, do you know Rudy Giuliani is getting paid $20,000 a day to contest the election, so the longer he keeps it going to more money he is going to make, it's the Republican way.
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Re: Trump

Post by BrasatoAlBarolo » Fri, 20. Nov 20, 09:07

felter wrote:
Fri, 20. Nov 20, 04:36
Joe Biden is needing to grow a set of gonads and start fighting back. He has supposedly said he will not seek justice of any one currently breaking any law, as Trump and republicans try to break the election. To me that is one of the problems, he should be standing up and stating that he will be having investigations into the shenanigans that are currently going on, with the full intention of prosecuting any person that breaks the law, but no he doesn't want to rock the boat. Turns out Biden is just another American idiot.

On a side note, do you know Rudy Giuliani is getting paid $20,000 a day to contest the election, so the longer he keeps it going to more money he is going to make, it's the Republican way.
It's the typical "big fish" tactic in lawsuits: take it the longest possible, some day your "rival" is going to finish his money and concede. It's the way big corporations never lose a lawsuit against one of their smaller customers or suppliers.

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Re: Trump

Post by Warenwolf » Fri, 20. Nov 20, 11:00

BrasatoAlBarolo wrote:
Fri, 20. Nov 20, 09:07

It's the typical "big fish" tactic in lawsuits: take it the longest possible, some day your "rival" is going to finish his money and concede. It's the way big corporations never lose a lawsuit against one of their smaller customers or suppliers.
This. I see this all the time outside the politics and even being used to breach the contracts when the other party is perceived as having not enough cash flow for a lengthy process.
That being said I don't think Rudy is hoping that money will run out for those he sues (it will not happen), he sees that as opportunity to earn some money.

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Re: Trump

Post by BrasatoAlBarolo » Fri, 20. Nov 20, 13:31

Warenwolf wrote:
Fri, 20. Nov 20, 11:00
BrasatoAlBarolo wrote:
Fri, 20. Nov 20, 09:07

It's the typical "big fish" tactic in lawsuits: take it the longest possible, some day your "rival" is going to finish his money and concede. It's the way big corporations never lose a lawsuit against one of their smaller customers or suppliers.
This. I see this all the time outside the politics and even being used to breach the contracts when the other party is perceived as having not enough cash flow for a lengthy process.
That being said I don't think Rudy is hoping that money will run out for those he sues (it will not happen), he sees that as opportunity to earn some money.
Yes, I agree, it's probably not the case. What I was thinking is this is a strategy Trump may be quite comfortable with as a businessman.

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Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Fri, 20. Nov 20, 15:12

BrasatoAlBarolo wrote:
Fri, 20. Nov 20, 13:31
Warenwolf wrote:
Fri, 20. Nov 20, 11:00
BrasatoAlBarolo wrote:
Fri, 20. Nov 20, 09:07

It's the typical "big fish" tactic in lawsuits: take it the longest possible, some day your "rival" is going to finish his money and concede. It's the way big corporations never lose a lawsuit against one of their smaller customers or suppliers.
This. I see this all the time outside the politics and even being used to breach the contracts when the other party is perceived as having not enough cash flow for a lengthy process.
That being said I don't think Rudy is hoping that money will run out for those he sues (it will not happen), he sees that as opportunity to earn some money.
Yes, I agree, it's probably not the case. What I was thinking is this is a strategy Trump may be quite comfortable with as a businessman.
Oh there's no doubt about that. He has absolutely abused the courts to try to weasel is way out of things or to punish people he perceives as having slighted him. Even his relationship with Deutsche Bank is fraught with this where he borrowed money from them, and when the loans came due, he sued them claiming they were a "hostile lender" and drug out this case for years. Deutsche Bank relented over the slander Trump's lawsuits were alleging. While all of this was going on, Trump borrowed more money from em! And then when you get into all of the slap suits he files accusing people of slander when they say something he doesn't like, whether true or not. He immediately goes into lawsuit mode with no intention of winning, just punishing the other guy by making it oppressively burdensome to even participate in the court case.

You see the pattern here? Trump's use of the courts isn't to see justice done, it's to bludgeon his perceived enemies with litigious proceedings and costs so that he "wins" by attrition, not a court that finds in his favor. And who are his enemies today? hmmmmmm
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Re: Trump

Post by BrasatoAlBarolo » Fri, 20. Nov 20, 16:05

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Fri, 20. Nov 20, 15:12
Oh there's no doubt about that. He has absolutely abused the courts to try to weasel is way out of things or to punish people he perceives as having slighted him. Even his relationship with Deutsche Bank is fraught with this where he borrowed money from them, and when the loans came due, he sued them claiming they were a "hostile lender" and drug out this case for years. Deutsche Bank relented over the slander Trump's lawsuits were alleging. While all of this was going on, Trump borrowed more money from em! And then when you get into all of the slap suits he files accusing people of slander when they say something he doesn't like, whether true or not. He immediately goes into lawsuit mode with no intention of winning, just punishing the other guy by making it oppressively burdensome to even participate in the court case.

You see the pattern here? Trump's use of the courts isn't to see justice done, it's to bludgeon his perceived enemies with litigious proceedings and costs so that he "wins" by attrition, not a court that finds in his favor. And who are his enemies today? hmmmmmm
He's recently picking the wrong enemies, then.

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Re: Trump

Post by RegisterMe » Fri, 20. Nov 20, 21:16

felter wrote:
Fri, 20. Nov 20, 04:36
Joe Biden is needing to grow a set of gonads and start fighting back. He has supposedly said he will not seek justice of any one currently breaking any law, as Trump and republicans try to break the election.
I'm not sure that I agree with that. I think the wisest course of action, both short and long term, is for Biden to effectively recuse himself from any involvement with the justice system at all. By all means have justice take its course, but the President should not be directly involved. Politicisation of the justice system is one of the worst things that Trump has done, and if embedded (more than it already is) in the US it will utterly undermine the US as a nation.

Justice must be apolitical.

And yeah, I know, that's naïve, but....
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Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Fri, 20. Nov 20, 21:38

RegisterMe wrote:
Fri, 20. Nov 20, 21:16
felter wrote:
Fri, 20. Nov 20, 04:36
Joe Biden is needing to grow a set of gonads and start fighting back. He has supposedly said he will not seek justice of any one currently breaking any law, as Trump and republicans try to break the election.
I'm not sure that I agree with that. I think the wisest course of action, both short and long term, is for Biden to effectively recuse himself from any involvement with the justice system at all. By all means have justice take its course, but the President should not be directly involved. Politicisation of the justice system is one of the worst things that Trump has done, and if embedded (more than it already is) in the US it will utterly undermine the US as a nation.

Justice must be apolitical.

And yeah, I know, that's naïve, but....
No, that's not naïve at all. It's exactly how it should be, "Equal Justice Under the Law" as is etched on entrance the Supreme Court. That's also exactly how it hasn't been for the last 4 years.

I've never seen a sitting president entwine himself with the DoJ as Trump has.

No, in this case, Biden doesn't need to be involved in any legal actions. His AG, however, should pursue Trump to the ends of the earth and hold him accountable before the American people. This coup attempt cannot stand.
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Re: Trump

Post by RegisterMe » Fri, 20. Nov 20, 22:14

I think I remember seeing an interview with Eric Holder about his time as Obama's AG. He said something along the lines of "Obama never met with me without somebody else present, and never said anything about current or prospective DoJ cases, he just wanted to be kept informed".

Not a bad starting point if you ask me.
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Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Fri, 20. Nov 20, 22:55

Presidents shouldn't be micromanaging every department under the executive, anyway. That's just bad management, period. It's one thing for them to provide general expectations and general guidance towards policy impelentation, it's another thing to step in it themselves. If the people appointed to head these departments can't get the job done without being hand held, then the wrong people are in the job. Conversely, if the president is trying to control every aspect of those departments, then he's in the wrong job. Sadly, we've had a mix of the two in the worst possible way.
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Re: Trump

Post by fiksal » Fri, 20. Nov 20, 23:33

Well hello there, I am a little late to the party, but assuming the coup doesn't succeed, we'll still have one later.
I voted in one of the States that switched colors. So... HA!
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