Trump

[clakclak]

I have to agree with Bagger on one thing: Trump will probably win. The reason for that is quite easy. Hate sells better than complex issues. If you have two sites and one site is selling you the: "We have a complex racism problem and to solve it everyone for themselves and society as a hole will have to do a lot of self reflection" and the other one is simply "Law & Order when the looting starts, the shooting starts", then it is pretty clear who offers the easier way out.

A simple message about who to hate and the promise that if you hate them enough your issues will go away has always worked well in the past. The problem is that black people demanding that police stop killing them are not actually the reason why Joe Blow lost his job in a coalmine somewhere in rural West Virginia. Meanwhile Trump offers solutions to all problems at arms reach. The idea behind it is clear, turn off your head, stop thinking for yourself and be totally and unquestionably loyal to Trump and everything will be fine. And you know what? Because he is president that is actually true. He will use the powers of his office to make sure that his friends do not have to follow the law. Just look at what he just did to Roger Stone.

Donald Trump has found an interesting loophole in most democractic systems, if you have enough support all these pieces of paper like the constitution that are allegedly important to many Americans suddenly do not mean a thing. The rule of law does not work if the president can simply dictate what is law and what is not. Donald Trump will continue to win because unlike his opponents he has understood one crucial thing. You do not have to follow the rules of a democracy if nobody can hold you accountable. He managed to gather a cult like status, in fact he himself loathed at how stupid his followers are when he said, "I could shoot someone and I would not loose any voters". He knows his target audience and he knows them well. They are the people who want unquestioned authority,[Edit]because[Edit] in the end they care more about ****** other people over than how well or bad they are doing themselves. Like the Black Knight from Monty Python they would be willing to sacrafice everything, their values, their livelyhood and their country, if it means that they can spit in the face of the liberals (or the left, or the blacks, or the Antifa or whoever is the villain of the day) one last time.

Edit Note: One sentence probably took it a bit to far.

[matthewfarmery]

Even though there is a lot of truth in those words, And while Trump may win, but, we are still a long way from seeing an end to corvid 19. Many states that have tried to re open, but have had to roll back on that. There is also outrage of Trump (even from within the ranks of the GOP, over forcing schools to be reopened. Trump doesn't seem to have any clue on what he wants to do in a second term. I think the only reason at this stage on why, is because he knows he will end up in prison. So been in office, makes him immune.

There is more going on then just the race issues. We still have his nieces book, there also the tax returns that hopefully will get revealed at some point.

Also there is a large chunk of people who disagree with his handling of corvid 19. And there still time left to see what Trump does during that time. He is desperate to get America working again, open for business. But this is backfiring on him. As many states have not re opened. or roll back on that. If it wasn't for corvid 19, I would say that a second term of Trump would have been in the bag. But as things are now, I think Trump is shooting himself in the foot, and making himself look really silly in the process. Of course, he has followers. those that still blindly believe in him. But I think with recent events, even they are shrinking. A lot can still happen,But I would say that a second term of Trump isn't in the bag, far from it.

[Grim Lock]

American values? You don't even know them any more. The dem party has been overrun by socialists. This election is about preserving the one party that is still true to them. It is weak and spineless but it can be brought back with a leader that does not kneel.

"For the 1/100th time, the reason we show so many Cases, compared to other countries that haven’t done nearly as well as we have, is that our TESTING is much bigger and better. We have tested 40,000,000 people. If we did 20,000,000 instead, Cases would be half, etc. NOT REPORTED!"

You are supporting a mentally disturbed and handicapped person, you are looking up to him..... What freakin hole in the ground are you standing in to be looking up to someone that tweets objectively stupid shit like this?! And who are you to decide what ****** values are American or not? That kind of talk flies in the face any talk of freedom, but then again, hypocrisy is and always has been the red line guiding you and your fellow Trumpians.

[Vertigo 7]

I have to agree with Bagger on one thing: Trump will probably win. The reason for that is quite easy. Hate sells better than complex issues. If you have two sites and one site is selling you the: "We have a complex racism problem and to solve it everyone for themselves and society as a hole will have to do a lot of self reflection" and the other one is simply "Law & Order when the looting starts, the shooting starts", then it is pretty clear who offers the easier way out.

A simple message about who to hate and the promise that if you hate them enough your issues will go away has always worked well in the past. The problem is that black people demanding that police stop killing them are not actually the reason why Joe Blow lost his job in a coalmine somewhere in rural West Virginia. Meanwhile Trump offers solutions to all problems at arms reach. The idea behind it is clear, turn off your head, stop thinking for yourself and be totally and unquestionably loyal to Trump and everything will be fine. And you know what? Because he is president that is actually true. He will use the powers of his office to make sure that his friends do not have to follow the law. Just look at what he just did to Roger Stone.

Donald Trump has found an interesting loophole in most democractic systems, if you have enough support all these pieces of paper like the constitution that are allegedly important to many Americans suddenly do not mean a thing. The rule of law does not work if the president can simply dictate what is law and what is not. Donald Trump will continue to win because unlike his opponents he has understood one crucial thing. You do not have to follow the rules of a democracy if nobody can hold you accountable. He managed to gather a cult like status, in fact he himself loathed at how stupid his followers are when he said, "I could shoot someone and I would not loose any voters". He knows his target audience and he knows them well. They are the people who want unquestioned authority,[Edit]because[Edit] in the end they care more about ****** other people over than how well or bad they are doing themselves. Like the Black Knight from Monty Python they would be willing to sacrafice everything, their values, their livelyhood and their country, if it means that they can spit in the face of the liberals (or the left, or the blacks, or the Antifa or whoever is the villain of the day) one last time.

Edit Note: One sentence probably took it a bit to far.

You're overestimating Trump and underestimating the American people. If anything, the protests in the wake of George Floyd's murder should have shown you that. They are STILL going on to this very day.

If the easy way out was what we wanted, conservatives would have dominated government leading up to, and negating, the civil war and we would still be a nation that utilizes slave labor, we would not have gotten involved in the least little bit in WW1 and WW2, and subsequently most likely would not have been attacked by Japan. We wouldn't be fighting to maintain our democracy. It would be far easier to just shrug and say "can't do anything about it" and just move on.

I'm sure you're aware the US has a sordid and brutally bloody history. The people that birthed this nation and their progeny did some truly godawful things. We have also taken pause to grow beyond a lot of that, albeit, not enough in some areas. It wasn't easy then, it isn't easy now, and it won't be easy later, but I know we have the capability and capacity to do so.

We have our share of assholes, and when they show their ass, yeah they get a lot of attention. There's no denying that. But there's far more people that aren't like that. They may not be seen with as much frequency as the assholes are, but that doesn't mean they aren't there and fighting for a better tomorrow.

Trump and his dimwit posse can call us unamerican and question our patriotism all they want to. But it's not we who are trying to turn our democracy into a dictatorship. It is not we who wave flags of our enemies and spit on our veterans. It is not we who ignore the plight of our brothers and sisters whose only crime was to not be born white. I ask you, which of us is truly unamerican?

Yes, Trump and the brainless bunch are going to continue to occupy the spotlight for the next few months. And rightfully so, as it has been from the beginning of this lunacy. If it wasn't this overly absurd, things wouldn't be where they are today. So it need to be shown. It may no longer be shocking to see how vile and inane Trump and his supporters are. But every imbecilic thing they say and do will add to the pile and it'll keep stacking and keep stacking and, I promise you, on November 3rd, that massive pile of shit will come crashing down on Trump and the rest of them and no one will come to their rescue.

[clakclak]

[...]

You're overestimating Trump and underestimating the American people.

Possible. I pray you are right, I fear you may be wrong.

If anything, the protests in the wake of George Floyd's murder should have shown you that. They are STILL going on to this very day.

Yes and they are also still going on here in Germany, half the world apart. I have been a common attendee of AntiRa demonstrations (orginised by different groups, I am no member of any of them) in Germany for the last 10 years now but change is still glacially slow. The French hardler ever stopped protesting the death of Adama Traoré and that was four years ago. Demonstrations alone are a good sign, but they will not convince me of anything.

If the easy way out was what we wanted, conservatives would have dominated government leading up to, and negating, the civil war and we would still be a nation that utilizes slave labor, we would not have gotten involved in the least little bit in WW1 and WW2, and subsequently most likely would not have been attacked by Japan. We wouldn't be fighting to maintain our democracy. It would be far easier to just shrug and say "can't do anything about it" and just move on.

I'm sure you're aware the US has a sordid and brutally bloody history.

Name one country that doesn't have a bloody history. Hell my grandparents decided 70 years ago that jews and poles (among others) were not even worthy of continuing to live on this planet. Their parents/grandparents before them already warmed up by commiting a genocide against the Herero and Nama and than continued on by helping the Turks massacre the Armenians.

But your point about the US having made great improvements already is a valid one. I will admit I trust Americans more to do the right thing than I trust Germans.

The people that birthed this nation and their progeny did some truly godawful things. We have also taken pause to grow beyond a lot of that, albeit, not enough in some areas. It wasn't easy then, it isn't easy now, and it won't be easy later, but I know we have the capability and capacity to do so.

We have our share of assholes, and when they show their ass, yeah they get a lot of attention. There's no denying that. But there's far more people that aren't like that. They may not be seen with as much frequency as the assholes are, but that doesn't mean they aren't there and fighting for a better tomorrow.

Oh please don't take my comment the wrong way. I KNOW there are many Americans fighting for the right thing. I know there are many, many good people in the states. Hell even among Trump's voters there are good but missguided people.

Trump and his dimwit posse can call us unamerican and question our patriotism all they want to. But it's not we who are trying to turn our democracy into a dictatorship. It is not we who wave flags of our enemies and spit on our veterans. It is not we who ignore the plight of our brothers and sisters whose only crime was to not be born white. I ask you, which of us is truly unamerican?

You are asking the wrong person. I am not American. Ask your fellow citizens. I will criticise Trump because I feel that what he is doing is wrong, the same way I will criticise other western leaders and a lot less harshly than I will criticise Xi Jinping. Because despite all of Trumps flaws I would pick him as ruler of the world any day above someone like Xi.

Yes, Trump and the brainless bunch are going to continue to occupy the spotlight for the next few months. And rightfully so, as it has been from the beginning of this lunacy. If it wasn't this overly absurd, things wouldn't be where they are today. So it need to be shown. It may no longer be shocking to see how vile and inane Trump and his supporters are. But every imbecilic thing they say and do will add to the pile and it'll keep stacking and keep stacking and, I promise you, on November 3rd, that massive pile of shit will come crashing down on Trump and the rest of them and no one will come to their rescue.

God I hope you are right.
[/quote]

[matthewfarmery]

Also lets not forget, there is the senate too. Now, Hypothetically speaking, lets say that the dems control the senate. I think that would help to control Trump in his second term of office. Now, lets add on the possibility that his tax returns do show up in the senate (and then becomes public knowledge) and if those tax returns do show dirty assets etc, would the president be impeached again? or would the dems use the 25th amendment to kick him out of office? or perhaps by then, Trump will be forced to resign?

I think even if Trump does win, I feel his days are numbered, as long as the dems control the senate. If the GOP still has it, then we will see another 4 years of Trump, unless the Tax returns do show something interesting, and that the GOP finally stand up to him.

I think depending on who controls the senate, will control the game. And Trump will feel his is a caged animal with no way out. And by then, he will probably go into meltdown.

So anything can happen, but his days I do feel are very numbered.

Edit

he is losing some support from those that did follow him, and unhappy on how Trump is handling things


Pennsylvania Trump Supporters Say His Campaign Tone Could Hurt Reelection

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1cnmpeZoow

Come November, he may lose even more support. And this is one of the key battlegrounds that he did win. If he losing support here, then he probably will lose support else where. And that is happening to some degree.

[fiksal]

God I hope you are right.

Crazier things happen of course, he can still win, US can still plunge into a fascist state. But that's why we 'fight', dont we?

Trouble has been piling up on Trump, so this is much better, if lets say he were actually to do good by the country and the people. And if he were to reverse his positions early and actually do the said good - there won't be a reason to mobilize against him.

So, FOX is reporting that Trump is shaky. Yet they the same time showing 91% predictions that Trump will win. The later is good, as we talked with Mightysword - it can discourage the attendance among voters.

Republicans are scared of voter turn out, so they are reducing voting stations. Interesting attempt, that's further fueling the fire.

My immediate friends who wouldnt necessarily voted otherwise are all pumped for this election. My immediate family that was pro Trump has been talking about sitting this one out, - the morale is not great.

[Mightysword]

Here is an example to ponder about: midterm election.

I'm aware of the movement during the 2018, or more accurately - the liberal media circus during and after it. Large voter turn out, Republican lost house majority ... yada yada. But to me, those are simply selective 'news', what most of them fail to mention are proper contexts. For instances:

- Historical context: it's often said the midterm is referendum of the presidential election, and turn out American are quite harsh judge. On average since WW2 the incumbent would lose about 25 house and 4 senate at midterm. In fact, the only 2 president managed to gain seats in both chambers were GWBush and FDRoosevelt, and it's not hard to understand why (WW2 and 09/11).

- In term of parity: Trump did WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY better than Obama. He lost 26 House seats (so right about the average), and that's not even HALF the seat Obama lost in his first term (63). Not only that, he also gained 3 Senate seats (which made him the only 7th president manages to do so since the mid term election is introduced), compare to Obama loss of 9. So straight up number: Trump was 37 house seats and 12 senate seats better than Obama. And despite winning a 2nd term, Obama continued his losing streak that serves as the precursor to put the next Republican president in position of power in 2016.

I made a little sheet hereto show you how "good" Trump actually did against the historical trend: https://imgur.com/yveuZEE
Pardon the quality, it's just shit excel.


- The first point is, Democrat tried to celebrate the 2018 midterm result that Republican lost house seat as some soft of self-vindication while it's just something that happens to the majority of presidents. In fact, the only one managed to NOT lose house seat without the help of extenuate circumstance (war) was Bill Clinton's 2nd term, which was during one of the best economy period.

- The second point is as liberal media tried to play it up, the turn out, the energy ...etc... They forgot, or tried to not mention the fact to the conservative movement (read - tea party) that stripped Obama of his power, the Democrat version under Trump PALED in comparison both in term of energy AND results.


Note that I'm not using this to say Trump has a good chance, frankly I don't know at this point. I had somewhat a good view (purely by my own crunching) prior to COVID-19, but with that now there is too much smoke screen for me to see clearly. Like I said, no matter how good one can be with data, there is limit to what you can do when the sources themselves are shit. However I bring this up to strictly remind people NOT to get complacent based on what they hear and see, simply because their source are mostly just a one way street. As a statistician I often say you can give me one set of data, and I can twist it into 2 opposite interpretation and I can fool most people with it. Ideally, you want to be objective. If not, as counter-intuitive as it maybe, look at the opposite side for your 'sources'. So like go read Fox if you're a liberal, and go read CNN if you're a conservative. And by read, I mean actually digest and dig into it, not just scream "FAKE NEWS" at the headlines. As a neutral, to me they are all fakes, yet they also all contain truth that needs to be considered.

Lastly, I don't care much about the whole American value or "true" American. They are so overly used that they're meaningless now. Honestly I don't know what they are any more, and I'm sure as hell those who proclaim it don't. Those who throw it around are merely used it to label anyone who disagree. Do you notice that each side has their own chest thumbing label? Like Conservatives love referring to themselves as 'true patriot' while liberal like to call themselves "true Americans" ? To us neutral they look the same.

For me, there are only Americans (true or not). And values be damn, on election day only two questions matter: will that person vote, and for who? Regardless of any label you care to throw on people, their votes will count just as much as yours.

[Vertigo 7]

Here is an example to ponder about: midterm election.

I'm aware of the movement during the 2018, or more accurately - the liberal media circus during and after it. Large voter turn out, Republican lost house majority ... yada yada. But to me, those are simply selective 'news', what most of them fail to mention are proper contexts. For instances:

- Historical context: it's often said the midterm is referendum of the presidential election, and turn out American are quite harsh judge. On average since WW2 the incumbent would lose about 25 house and 4 senate at midterm. In fact, the only 2 president managed to gain seats in both chambers were GWBush and FDRoosevelt, and it's not hard to understand why (WW2 and 09/11).

- In term of parity: Trump did WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY better than Obama. He lost 26 House seats (so right about the average), and that's not even HALF the seat Obama lost in his first term (63). Not only that, he also gained 3 Senate seats (which made him the only 7th president manages to do so since the mid term election is introduced), compare to Obama loss of 9. So straight up number: Trump was 37 house seats and 12 senate seats better than Obama. And despite winning a 2nd term, Obama continued his losing streak that serves as the precursor to put the next Republican president in position of power in 2016.

I made a little sheet hereto show you how "good" Trump actually did against the historical trend: https://imgur.com/yveuZEE
Pardon the quality, it's just shit excel.


- The first point is, Democrat tried to celebrate the 2018 midterm result that Republican lost house seat as some soft of self-vindication while it's just something that happens to the majority of presidents. In fact, the only one managed to NOT lose house seat without the help of extenuate circumstance (war) was Bill Clinton's 2nd term, which was during one of the best economy period.

- The second point is as liberal media tried to play it up, the turn out, the energy ...etc... They forgot, or tried to not mention the fact to the conservative movement (read - tea party) that stripped Obama of his power, the Democrat version under Trump PALED in comparison both in term of energy AND results.

Yeah, but you're also forgetting the down ballot races. You forget that Viginia flipped its entire legislature after 20 something years? Louisiana voted for a democrat governor over Trump's endorsement? on and on. It's not just about the "big race" on these tickets, the smaller elections matter a lot too and democrats whupped up on some Trump loving republicans all over the place.

You can say media this and media that all you like, but if you don't actually read the stories, you will continue to miss what's happening. You're not going to gain the knowledge by osmosis.

Note that I'm not using this to say Trump has a good chance, frankly I don't know at this point. I had somewhat a good view (purely by my own crunching) prior to COVID-19, but with that now there is too much smoke screen for me to see clearly. Like I said, no matter how good one can be with data, there is limit to what you can do when the sources themselves are shit. However I bring this up to strictly remind people NOT to get complacent based on what they hear and see, simply because their source are mostly just a one way street. As a statistician I often say you can give me one set of data, and I can twist it into 2 opposite interpretation and I can fool most people with it. Ideally, you want to be objective. If not, as counter-intuitive as it maybe, look at the opposite side for your 'sources'. So like go read Fox if you're a liberal, and go read CNN if you're a conservative. And by read, I mean actually digest and dig into it, not just scream "FAKE NEWS" at the headlines. As a neutral, to me they are all fakes, yet they also all contain truth that needs to be considered.

Maybe you're the kind of person to take a sign of good news as good enough and wash your hands of it. That doesn't mean anybody else is. As a matter of fact, in all the so called "shit sources", has any of them said "we've won, don't go vote, it's over!"? I don't care if the prediction is 99.999999999999% chance of flipping every damn thing in the country blue, I'm still going to go vote. It ain't over until it's over and we can't get rid of the oompa loompa and the rest of the jackasses if we don't vote.

Lastly, I don't care much about the whole American value or "true" American. They are so overly used that they're meaningless now. Honestly I don't know what they are any more, and I'm sure as hell those who proclaim it don't. Those who throw it around are merely used it to label anyone who disagree. Do you notice that each side has their own chest thumbing label? Like Conservatives love referring to themselves as 'true patriot' while liberal like to call themselves "true Americans" ? To us neutral they look the same.

For me, there are only Americans (true or not). And values be damn, on election day only two questions matter: will that person vote, and for who? Regardless of any label you care to throw on people, their votes will count just as much as yours.

Then why comment? You're quite the enigma when it comes to your opinion? of the US. You said you hate Americans, yet you live here anyway, then you said you love American culture, and now you say this. I can't even understand what point you're trying to make.

[Vertigo 7]

[...]

You're overestimating Trump and underestimating the American people.

Possible. I pray you are right, I fear you may be wrong.

If anything, the protests in the wake of George Floyd's murder should have shown you that. They are STILL going on to this very day.

Yes and they are also still going on here in Germany, half the world apart. I have been a common attendee of AntiRa demonstrations (orginised by different groups, I am no member of any of them) in Germany for the last 10 years now but change is still glacially slow. The French hardler ever stopped protesting the death of Adama Traoré and that was four years ago. Demonstrations alone are a good sign, but they will not convince me of anything.

Well the point was that the American spirit is not to give up. Especially when the obvious outcomes are more of the same or something better.

If the easy way out was what we wanted, conservatives would have dominated government leading up to, and negating, the civil war and we would still be a nation that utilizes slave labor, we would not have gotten involved in the least little bit in WW1 and WW2, and subsequently most likely would not have been attacked by Japan. We wouldn't be fighting to maintain our democracy. It would be far easier to just shrug and say "can't do anything about it" and just move on.

I'm sure you're aware the US has a sordid and brutally bloody history.

Name one country that doesn't have a bloody history. Hell my grandparents decided 70 years ago that jews and poles (among others) were not even worthy of continuing to live on this planet. Their parents/grandparents before them already warmed up by commiting a genocide against the Herero and Nama and than continued on by helping the Turks massacre the Armenians.

But your point about the US having made great improvements already is a valid one. I will admit I trust Americans more to do the right thing than I trust Germans.

Oh this wasn't some attempt at saying the US is alone with a history of atrocities. But as this thread is primarily about the future of the US, I mean't it strictly in that context. I'm not foolish enough to believe we are unique in our capacity for bloodshed.

The people that birthed this nation and their progeny did some truly godawful things. We have also taken pause to grow beyond a lot of that, albeit, not enough in some areas. It wasn't easy then, it isn't easy now, and it won't be easy later, but I know we have the capability and capacity to do so.

We have our share of assholes, and when they show their ass, yeah they get a lot of attention. There's no denying that. But there's far more people that aren't like that. They may not be seen with as much frequency as the assholes are, but that doesn't mean they aren't there and fighting for a better tomorrow.

Oh please don't take my comment the wrong way. I KNOW there are many Americans fighting for the right thing. I know there are many, many good people in the states. Hell even among Trump's voters there are good but missguided people.

I'm not. I just know what sells for news and what doesn't. Case in point, as mentioned previously, the news coverage of the protests can make it appear that our nation is out of control. But contextually, violence that has erupted from the protests has been statistically insignificant. However, Trump's militant response to the protests and the neo-nazi's getting in their vehicles and running down protesters does need the most attention it can garner as both behaviors are sickening.

Trump and his dimwit posse can call us unamerican and question our patriotism all they want to. But it's not we who are trying to turn our democracy into a dictatorship. It is not we who wave flags of our enemies and spit on our veterans. It is not we who ignore the plight of our brothers and sisters whose only crime was to not be born white. I ask you, which of us is truly unamerican?

You are asking the wrong person. I am not American. Ask your fellow citizens. I will criticise Trump because I feel that what he is doing is wrong, the same way I will criticise other western leaders and a lot less harshly than I will criticise Xi Jinping. Because despite all of Trumps flaws I would pick him as ruler of the world any day above someone like Xi.

We have 7.whatever billion people on this planet. Can we not pick either one of them? Not that it's realistic but it's honestly little different to me than from a choice between Trump and Clinton. I'll vote for a giant meteor to wipe us out before voting for them (and I did). Hind sight being 20/20 I should have voted for Clinton, but I can't change the past.

Yes, Trump and the brainless bunch are going to continue to occupy the spotlight for the next few months. And rightfully so, as it has been from the beginning of this lunacy. If it wasn't this overly absurd, things wouldn't be where they are today. So it need to be shown. It may no longer be shocking to see how vile and inane Trump and his supporters are. But every imbecilic thing they say and do will add to the pile and it'll keep stacking and keep stacking and, I promise you, on November 3rd, that massive pile of shit will come crashing down on Trump and the rest of them and no one will come to their rescue.

God I hope you are right.

So do I. But the math supports a major victory against Trump and large gains in the senate and elsewhere. So does the apparent enthusiasm.

[Vertigo 7]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p00fxoDpaIo
Well that didn't take long. Pretty spot on.

[Chips]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p00fxoDpaIo
Well that didn't take long. Pretty spot on.

Those videos are likely utterly irrelevent - playing to an echo chamber; watched by those who won't vote Trump. Meanwhile, why do you think it'll change a republican's mind. It's not about voting for Trump, it's about getting them (or swing voters more likely) to vote Democrat. Why? What do they stand for? They know Trump, a powerful personality. Is Biden?

Do Republicans care whether his advisers harbour an amount of Felons? We can even ask one in Masterbagger - is that video telling the truth to you?

Better to convince people why to vote for someone, then try to persuade them *not* to vote for someone else. The reason? Vote for the unknown or the known. They know Trump now, has it been that bad for them before the covid outbreak?
Covid may be the thing that swings it if that message is gotten out there and scores more people start dying - with Trump and their message being the fault.

[BrasatoAlBarolo]

Your audience (and by "you" I mean the people is fighting Trump) isn't Trump voters, because a lot of them is going to vote Trump no matter what happens, and a relevant part of them is never going to watch content from a non-Trump-related source. You target aren't even people who is never going to vote Trump, because there's no reason for them to go vote Trump (or another republican, in some cases). You need your message to go to the "random browser", the one who's still undecided. Heck, you even want foreigners to watch your videos and read your articles, because international pressure in 2020 is also important.

[Chips]

because international pressure in 2020 is also important.

Anything to support that? There's been 5 years of international condemnation for Trump. As for the swing voters which I mentioned,is it really telling them something they don't know? Don't vote for what you do know, vote for an unknown because ... erm, well, it's *NOT* Trump. Worked last time.

Currently it's powerful personality (however bad) vs ... who? Standing for what?

I know Trump slogans/promises via osmosis as the media report it worldwide; in fact that's all he's got. Sound bytes galore.

However, as Masterbagger previously pointed out, the Democrats lost as they didn't field a candidate who could beat Trump. Think about that for a moment - Trump, the loud mouthed orange faced compulsive liar, with no political experience, and seemingly no link between his brain, conscience and his mouth. Clinton lost to *that*. Has that been addressed? It feels like the hope was he'd shoot himself in the foot to get him out of office, and covid/blm may just be the silver bullet in this instance. However, never gave him a chance the first time round either.

We've seen attempts to make parallels between Clinton/Biden with the smear of his son/Biden over there in Ukraine which kinda backfired somewhat, but I'd imagine there's more Trumponian attempts to discredit Biden forthcoming, and possibly a few new slogans to appeal to the sort of voters they need to mobilise.

I do hope to heck that Trump loses the election - and my view should be taken with the consideration that since I'm not in the US I definitely do *not* see the amount of media surrounding it people in the US do. Just from outside looking I get the feeling covid/BLM will lose him the election, rather than democrats winning it. That's not something to inspire hope as memories can be short lived and a few chest thumping nationalist sound byte sentiments could shift things - they did last time.

[Vertigo 7]

It's not really that simple. People didn't want Clinton. The closest competitor they had was Sanders and Clinton didn't exactly sweep him aside. She barely eked out a primary nomination over him, and even after that, he ran on the independent ticket. The rest of the field were a bunch of nobodies with weak policies. Don't get me wrong, I like Sanders, but he's too far left for a lot of the centrists. Hillary would also be a nobody if her last name wasn't Clinton. I don't care what her husband's accomplishments were, she is not her husband and her experiences with governing are only marginally better than Trump.

Trump was also a wild card. How much about him did you know prior to 2016? I didn't know hardly a thing about him other than he had some ****** TV show and owned some hotels. It wasn't until after he had secured the republican nomination and who he is started to come to light and I was like "holy shit. they want that guy... really?"

2016 was a shit choice no matter how you slice it, unless you're racist then the choice was obvious. I'm sure if I was some cool-aid drinking republican, I would have voted for him too. But I'm smarter than that. Still, to this day, I cannot understand out of 350 million people, the best the 2 parties could field was Clinton and Trump? Come on...

This time, though... Biden is most definitely not Clinton. He has been in Washington most of his adult life. He knows what he's doing. His personal and professional reputations stand on their own. And on the other side, people now see what they got out of Trump. The racists love him, sure. But he sure as hell isn't going to win on racism.

[RegisterMe]

https://www.justsecurity.org/71370/top- ... amendment/

DoJ (Bureau of Prisons) tries to gag Cohen by blocking his tell all book on Trump. Cohen is returned to prison because he refuses to sign. How's that for freedom of speech?

[matthewfarmery]

https://www.justsecurity.org/71269/pard ... ble-crime/

From the same site, So by pardoning Stone, Trump may have done a unpardonable action. As pardoning someone is only for crimes that the person has committed in the past, not ongoing or current.

Now the senate should launch an investigation in this, (but if they will or not remains to be seen) But this could still be very damaging for Trump, and maybe if the dems take over the senate, they should add some new laws to prevent future presidents from pardoning someone in a current crime.

Trump is just continuing to push his luck. He really needs to go.

[pjknibbs]

From the same site, So by pardoning Stone, Trump may have done a unpardonable action. As pardoning someone is only for crimes that the person has committed in the past, not ongoing or current.

Thing is, I may be wrong here, but Trump hasn't actually pardoned Stone--he just commuted his prison sentence *without* going to the extent of pardoning him, possibly because even Donald realised that pardoning the guy would be pushing things too far.

[Mightysword]

Your audience (and by "you" I mean the people is fighting Trump) isn't Trump voters, because a lot of them is going to vote Trump no matter what happens, and a relevant part of them is never going to watch content from a non-Trump-related source. You target aren't even people who is never going to vote Trump, because there's no reason for them to go vote Trump (or another republican, in some cases). You need your message to go to the "random browser", the one who's still undecided. Heck, you even want foreigners to watch your videos and read your articles, because international pressure in 2020 is also important.

And this is something I have been saying for years. The problem with the echo chamber is for the most part, the endless news cycle only feed its own audiences. It's an effective 'business' model since it grant instant gratification to those who crave for it, but if the purpose is to convince anyone else who not on the anti-Trump bandwagon then it's a ****** model. The Trump camp obviously ain't gonna buy it, and speaking as an independent I find it repulsive. THAT is something I used to, and still apply to far right platform like Fox, but these days stations like CNN fall under the same umbrella. I said before, it feels like CNN is trying to become the new Fox. Basically for the majority of the content stream, the only people they will convince are the people who doesn't need to be convince.

Anything to support that? There's been 5 years of international condemnation for Trump. As for the swing voters which I mentioned,is it really telling them something they don't know? Don't vote for what you do know, vote for an unknown because ... erm, well, it's *NOT* Trump. Worked last time.

Currently it's powerful personality (however bad) vs ... who? Standing for what?

It is my belief that Trump is not that much different than an average politicians. After all, from time to time there have been politicians from both sides get caught saying similar things to Trump behind closed door. Think about it, for the most part politicians are still an elite class of the society, and mostly still very detached from the common people. One of the reason I switched off my support for Hilary in 2016 because she said some pretty condensing stuffs ... properly without even realizing it.

The difference is, most of them put up a facade to hide their closet, so naturally when this facade collapse, so their career. Trump never put up a facade though. I followed Trump campaign in 2016, I watched his speeches in full, and not just the snippets the media cares to the report on. And if you think those snippets were bad, the full version were even more colorful. And he said all that "BEFORE" he was elected, and he's still elected anyway. So whenever someone tell me "Trump is an arshole! Trump is a greedy SOB", I'm like 'and ... your point being?'. It's not because I approve of his actions, but because I already know that, the man himself said as much. I don't know why some people keep acting as if Trump had pretend to be a proper politician and so their 'news' is some soft of revelation ... they're not.

If his method was rejected, his campaign would be dead in the water even before it took of. But it succeeded, Ia proper example of "what doesn't kill me, make me strong". At the very least to the voters they know exactly what they get, whether with other politicians you have to be a bit wondering "am I getting what I think I will get"? In a way, it's an advantage for him.

However, as Masterbagger previously pointed out, the Democrats lost as they didn't field a candidate who could beat Trump. Think about that for a moment - Trump, the loud mouthed orange faced compulsive liar, with no political experience, and seemingly no link between his brain, conscience and his mouth. Clinton lost to *that*. Has that been addressed? It feels like the hope was he'd shoot himself in the foot to get him out of office, and covid/blm may just be the silver bullet in this instance. However, never gave him a chance the first time round either.

Whenever I said I didn't vote for Hilary 2016, there tend to be people who believe people like me helped Trump to his victory despite not voting for him ... and they are correct. But I do not regret that decision one bit even in hindsight. The job of convincing me to vote for him/her is of that candidate him/herself, and not the job of their opponents. I dearly hope as we approach election day, the focus will be on Biden's experience, his achievements, what can he bring to the table, how can he help the nation ...etc... and NOT just remain in full retard mode about "how terrible Trump is you shouldn't vote for him". It had been discussed before and just recently in this thread, we live in an age where the wisdom is "any news is good news", and if we give a ex-television star like Trump 24/7 coverage (who know how to wield it) than don't act surprise if he pulls the rug under us.

And even if they success in convincing people not voting for Trump, that doesn't the vote will go to Biden. For Biden to get the vote, he needs to convince people to vote for him by himself.

[matthewfarmery]

Your right, its not a full pardon, but still, the problem persists that Stone's crimes are current, not on a crime or crimes of the past. Even if its not a full pardon, it still should be wrong of a president do do this. Again considering how severe the crime is.