Trump

[fiksal]

But there is one thing he often said:

- If you want to beat Trump, all you have to do is to present a better candidate then him.

That's absolutely correct, and you don't have to be a Trump supporter to say that.

The last part of the sentence is missing one key element - "better candidate than Trump, for Trump supporters"
There were (arguably) several better candidates than Trump that ran in primaries, and one during the actual election.

So that didnt work.


One can try to win differently. What's the current voter turn out, 40%? Get more people to vote, to drown out the pro-Trump voices.

[Vertigo 7]

But to be fair, a lot of people just have too ****** jobs and living conditions that having dealt with the BS they are confronted with every day you can't fairly expect them to do more then vent their frustrations. I'm not a fan of putting people down just because "they aren't actively doing something about it" there's plenty of respectable reasons not to. Hell ideally that's why we've got politicians, they are there to do the legwork based on the opinions of people that actually work for a living.

It's not about putting people down, it's about stating facts. That's simply age old human's mentality. Like how you can get the youth and students to scream and protest, they can sign up for 100+ online petition, they can +like 1000 rant post on the forum, they can skip line to join protest downtown. But get up early and get in line to vote? Sorry can't be arsed.

And I always say: you have time to complain about something, you have time to do something about it. Your life suck? Complaining about it won't make it better, do something meaningful about it will often improve it.

That implies some lack of empathy to me, also from my frame of reference i can't really identify, in our last national election turnout was 82%, so the voting part is imo pretty well covered over here, most people that bitch and moan also go out and participate.

From where i am standing, saying if your life sucks and you've got time to bitch about so instead you could also do something about it, ignores the reality of the capacity of many people.

people can bitch and moan while simultaneously work on whatever it is they're bitching about. Multitasking ftw

[Grim Lock]

That also ofcourse, actually migthysword proves that point himself too, as i'm pretty sure he doesn't put his life on hold whenever he posts one of those super long essays

[Chips]

So it's what, about 14 months until the election?

I'm assuming it's Trump vs whomever the Democrats chose? So, how is all this going? As in, are there any decent contenders, or is it now 10 months of ripping each other apart to try and oppose Trump?

I am going to assume that, as always, regardless of WHO is the candidate, Democrats will ultimately vote for the Democrat, Republicans will vote Trump. Any initial starters on the ones who are unaligned? Any initial polls that indicate Trump is in trouble, or the opposite?

[Observe]

And I always say: you have time to complain about something, you have time to do something about it. Your life suck? Complaining about it won't make it better, do something meaningful about it will often improve it.

Money = Power
People with money = Power
People without money = Zilch

It is easy to tell a Zilch to suck it up, lift themselves up by the bootstraps and become someone they are not. The thing is, all these Zilches who are working their fingers to the bone on a daily basis, should have the same power as the high paid executive in some ivory tower.

I am not saying that the Zilch should have the same amount of money as the billionaire. What I am saying, is that money should not be the determiner in a person having the freedom to "do something meaningful" as you put it. We all should have sufficient finances to support ourselves in society and be able to contribute our creativity in ways that are meaningful to us and to our community.

All we need to do, is re-invent our economic system. After all, our existing system is only a human invention to start with. We don't need money as a carrot to force people to work. People want to work and always have. People are creative, energetic beings. Sure, there are some, who for one reason or another suffer from laziness, but I'll bet there would be far fewer of such people, if the sense of hopelessness and powerlessness wasn't so prevalent.

Sometimes people complain without action because they don't know what to do, or they don't have it in them, when the odds are stacked against them.

It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society

There is no question that we do have a profoundly sick society. I think on that, most will agree.

[Mightysword]

That implies some lack of empathy to me, also from my frame of reference i can't really identify, in our last national election turnout was 82%, so the voting part is imo pretty well covered over here, most people that bitch and moan also go out and participate.

Well, I feel it's kinda irony in what you have here in just one sentence. But first, a congratulation is in order if you are able to live in a country with such high participation rate, and I'm not being sarcastic there. But also by saying "you can't identify" ... isn't that what it means by "lacking empathy"? With all due respect, I'm not taking a shot at you, I firmly believe most people see and view the world through their own frame of reference, and that itself is shaped and mold by the environment and culture they live in, and I also apply that belief to myself. But isn't empathy refer to the ability to understand the situation outside of your own experience? In the last 100 years, the best vote turn out rate for the US is ~63%, and that's for presidential election, the number for midterm is even worse.

And during that time the country had its high and its low, even some period that most consideres the 'golden age'. So I will simply ask for some "empathy" in your part to understand why I may have a harsher view on this than yours, and why I don't believe the angle you're trying to use really applicable. It's not a problem due to people falling into hardtime, it's simply a chronic problems since forever. Also, I consider framing an argument around something like "empathy" is just a commonly used tactic these days to preemptive any counterargument as undesirable. I don't care about employing such tactic, neither I care for argument that frames around it. I had said it before: policy is best made on objective and sound reason rather than an appealing to emotion. It's not quite the same, but my point is similar to the idea that lady justice has to be blind for she to be fair.

Whether what your personal feeling is about it, in a democracy non-participant is no different then consent through abstention.

[Vertigo 7]

So it's what, about 14 months until the election?

I'm assuming it's Trump vs whomever the Democrats chose? So, how is all this going? As in, are there any decent contenders, or is it now 10 months of ripping each other apart to try and oppose Trump?

I am going to assume that, as always, regardless of WHO is the candidate, Democrats will ultimately vote for the Democrat, Republicans will vote Trump. Any initial starters on the ones who are unaligned? Any initial polls that indicate Trump is in trouble, or the opposite?

Well, according to Trump, he's doing very well in the polls. But also, he fired his own polling staff because the poll results they gave him didn't fit his narrative. Even Faux News doesn't give him favorable polls.

[Mightysword]

So it's what, about 14 months until the election?
I'm assuming it's Trump vs whomever the Democrats chose? So, how is all this going? As in, are there any decent contenders, or is it now 10 months of ripping each other apart to try and oppose Trump?

I am going to assume that, as always, regardless of WHO is the candidate, Democrats will ultimately vote for the Democrat, Republicans will vote Trump. Any initial starters on the ones who are unaligned? Any initial polls that indicate Trump is in trouble, or the opposite?

And here is the example of how "too much cynicism" is the biggest enemy of progress.

Good news: those assumptions are mostly wrong.
Bad news: a lot of people believe those assumptions.

I cited this before:

https://news.gallup.com/poll/245813/lea ... gains.aspx

and I will cite one more this time:

https://news.gallup.com/poll/15370/part ... ation.aspx

What both of them shows is that the Independent voters (no party affiliation) and neutral voters (no ideology affiliation) still make up the biggest chunk of the voters comparing to the hardcore loyalists - by a big margin. This is why after each election, the next 3 months whichever party lost always go through the soul searching phase of "how can we grab the swing voters, how can woo the independent". And yes, for 3 months we independent got to enjoy the lime light when everybody suddenly remember that we exist. But after that period? Each party just go back and carter to their own voting base, and that's how in the next 2-4 years the cynical narrative got built up to the point where a lot of people believe those wrong assumption. I'm taking a pretty wild guess those assumptions have something to do with people just decide not to vote.

[Masterbagger]

The last part of the sentence is missing one key element - "better candidate than Trump, for Trump supporters"
There were (arguably) several better candidates than Trump that ran in primaries, and one during the actual election.

So that didnt work.


One can try to win differently. What's the current voter turn out, 40%? Get more people to vote, to drown out the pro-Trump voices.

Do you know what would appeal to a Trump supporter? I think that is the root of a serious problem right there and one the democrats never addressed. They went right into Russia hysteria and never bothered to figure out why they really lost.

[Vertigo 7]

The last part of the sentence is missing one key element - "better candidate than Trump, for Trump supporters"
There were (arguably) several better candidates than Trump that ran in primaries, and one during the actual election.

So that didnt work.


One can try to win differently. What's the current voter turn out, 40%? Get more people to vote, to drown out the pro-Trump voices.

Do you know what would appeal to a Trump supporter?

Burning crosses, tickets to NASCAR, free PBR, father-daughter "quality time", whipping non-whites through the streets, a Walmart super center on every corner

[Grim Lock]

Well, I feel it's kinda irony in what you have here in just one sentence. But first, a congratulation is in order if you are able to live in a country with such high participation rate, and I'm not being sarcastic there. But also by saying "you can't identify" ... isn't that what it means by "lacking empathy"? With all due respect, I'm not taking a shot at you, I firmly believe most people see and view the world through their own frame of reference, and that itself is shaped and mold by the environment and culture they live in, and I also apply that belief to myself. But isn't empathy refer to the ability to understand the situation outside of your own experience? In the last 100 years, the best vote turn out rate for the US is ~63%, and that's for presidential election, the number for midterm is even worse.

I think your nitpicking my use of english language too much. It's not perfect but i'm trying my best.

When i said can't identify, i might have said, i can understand your problem and empathize with it, but it's not something i've got experience with from my frame of reference.

When i think of the word empathy, it think of it more in terms of understanding other mans difficulties or barriers get out of a ****** life, less about what whole countries do. (so more focused on a personal plight i guess)

Ps: voter turnout in the two previous elections over here was +/- 75%, the lower turnout served in favor of our blonde moron too, so much of the effort over here went into getting people to vote, not only into trying to change people's mind, i feel the US dems would do well to focus a lot of effort on simply getting people to go out and vote, if im reading polls and approval rates correctly and they are indeed correct within their margin, in a hypothethical 100% voter turnout Trump doesn't seem to stand a chance, so if i where a dem, id focus on getting the voter turnout as high as possible.

Ps2: It's a bit of an open door, but i do feel that one of the reasons the US has such a low turnout is directly related to having only choice A or B, now we represent the other end of the spectrum that brings it's own problems, but having 28 parties to choose from pretty much ensures a whatever you want you can vote for. If i could magicly change something in the US i would split the rep and dem parties into at least six or seven parties. Hell in many ways that's already the case, it's just that the way voting is set up a coalition between moderate dems and reps is impossible.

Ps3: And that Trump-supporters want? To ignore the wishes of others in favor of their own, just like everybody else.

[fiksal]

The last part of the sentence is missing one key element - "better candidate than Trump, for Trump supporters"
There were (arguably) several better candidates than Trump that ran in primaries, and one during the actual election.

So that didnt work.


One can try to win differently. What's the current voter turn out, 40%? Get more people to vote, to drown out the pro-Trump voices.

Do you know what would appeal to a Trump supporter? I think that is the root of a serious problem right there and one the democrats never addressed. They went right into Russia hysteria and never bothered to figure out why they really lost.

Does it matter? It's a losing strategy to appeal to Trump supporters, Democrats will always lose if they stick to it.

Do you know what would appeal to a liberal?

[felter]

So trump has been accused by a US spy of making a promise to a foreign government, not too sure on what the complaint is or even who the foreign government is. Trumps response to the allegation is the funny part:

"is anybody dumb enough to believe that I would say something inappropriate with a foreign leader".

Hell yeah, it's more like is anyone dumb enough to think he wouldn't do so.

Remember Trump is the guy who on his first meeting with Russian officials, blabbed out and gave away state secrets to them, for free.

[RegisterMe]

The last part of the sentence is missing one key element - "better candidate than Trump, for Trump supporters"
There were (arguably) several better candidates than Trump that ran in primaries, and one during the actual election.

So that didnt work.


One can try to win differently. What's the current voter turn out, 40%? Get more people to vote, to drown out the pro-Trump voices.

Do you know what would appeal to a Trump supporter? I think that is the root of a serious problem right there and one the democrats never addressed. They went right into Russia hysteria and never bothered to figure out why they really lost.

Does it matter? It's a losing strategy to appeal to Trump supporters, Democrats will always lose if they stick to it.

Do you know what would appeal to a liberal?

This dialogue here is the crux of it.

Not all Trump voters are Redneck hillbilly coal mining climate changing denying race-baiters. Just as not all Democrat voters are lilly livered liberals (socialist in disguise) with identity issues.

The way forward likely involves some kind of middle ground. The world will be a better place when America gets its head around this and votes accordingly.

[Chips]

So it's what, about 14 months until the election?
I'm assuming it's Trump vs whomever the Democrats chose? So, how is all this going? As in, are there any decent contenders, or is it now 10 months of ripping each other apart to try and oppose Trump?

I am going to assume that, as always, regardless of WHO is the candidate, Democrats will ultimately vote for the Democrat, Republicans will vote Trump. Any initial starters on the ones who are unaligned? Any initial polls that indicate Trump is in trouble, or the opposite?

And here is the example of how "too much cynicism" is the biggest enemy of progress.

Good news: those assumptions are mostly wrong.
Bad news: a lot of people believe those assumptions.

I cited this before:

https://news.gallup.com/poll/245813/lea ... gains.aspx

and I will cite one more this time:

https://news.gallup.com/poll/15370/part ... ation.aspx

What both of them shows is that the Independent voters (no party affiliation) and neutral voters (no ideology affiliation) still make up the biggest chunk of the voters comparing to the hardcore loyalists - by a big margin. This is why after each election, the next 3 months whichever party lost always go through the soul searching phase of "how can we grab the swing voters, how can woo the independent". And yes, for 3 months we independent got to enjoy the lime light when everybody suddenly remember that we exist. But after that period? Each party just go back and carter to their own voting base, and that's how in the next 2-4 years the cynical narrative got built up to the point where a lot of people believe those wrong assumption. I'm taking a pretty wild guess those assumptions have something to do with people just decide not to vote.

Nothing in what you post indicates whether democrats (those identifying as such) vote for republican, nor those identifying as republicans vote for democrats. You've managed to not only fail to answer the question, but answered a non existent question in the belief that you're answering a question.

An example of an unrare talent indeed!

[Mightysword]

Any initial starters on the ones who are unaligned? Any initial polls that indicate Trump is in trouble, or the opposite?

Perhaps I had misinterpreted your question, or perhaps what you were asking weren't clear enough, or simply were open enough that it can be interpreted differently then what you originally intended. I'm simply point out that even if all Democrat vote Democrat and all Republican vote Republican -which actually doesn't happen btw, part of the reason Hilary lost because she lost area that had voted Democrat for decades- ultimately it's still gonna be the independent voters that decided, the affiliated voters don't have the number to carry their own party for either side.

Which - I should remind you - it is the context of the current discussion about "what is the better candidate". Which pretty much all the posts on the pages are talking about. To affiliated maybe that's an irrelevant question, but to independent voters that's an important and valid statement. Your post came in the middle of that, so I don't think it's too unreasonable for me to assume it is within the same frame of the current topic, or is it? And if it's not what you meant, that's fine, simply seek clarification, or correction if you believe you were misunderstood.

You've managed to not only fail to answer the question, but answered a non existent question in the belief that you're answering a question.
An example of an unrare talent indeed!

But I guess for a thread that's constantly talk about Trump, it's natural for his 'style' to have an influence here.

[Grim Lock]

I think you'll enjoy this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8S0FDjFBj8o

[Vertigo 7]

I think you'll enjoy this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8S0FDjFBj8o

If it wasn't for sentences being formed from coherent thoughts, this would be identical to any Trump speech.

[RegisterMe]

So what do we all think about the brewing kerfuffle over this "senior intelligence whistle blower" (and them being prevented from using the whistle blowing process to talk to Congress by the DoJ)?

[fiksal]

This dialogue here is the crux of it.

Not all Trump voters are Redneck hillbilly coal mining climate changing denying race-baiters. Just as not all Democrat voters are lilly livered liberals (socialist in disguise) with identity issues.

The way forward likely involves some kind of middle ground. The world will be a better place when America gets its head around this and votes accordingly.

I dont know. Maybe?
I am less optimistic on that scenario. I've talked enough to Trump supporters and zero of them wanted anything offered by democrats, liberals or else. Most want to fight communists and have camps for media and undesirable immigrants. So.

I dont refer to Trump supporters as redneck hillbillies, (I refer to them as something else), and I can see that I have zero in common with them. I have no wish to see Democrats bend backwards to their wishes. The party needs to grow a back bone, that's what I hope for. Republicans are useless and no other party can move up currently.