Trump

[Vertigo 7]

But it wont matter. That's the point. Voting will be done. All they have to do is cry fraud and repeat Trump's stupid game and no one gets elected anymore. Give that one or two cycles and Trump officially crowns himself emperor, sith lord, whatever the hell he wants to call himself and the US is history.

We'll see 14th of December - there is still one month left and I'm rather sure courts will work overtime to clear out all the cases by then.

Even if we entertain such scenario, then what Trump can do in 2 years? I'm rather sure that in that scenario Dems would take both the House and Senate in 2022 and then Presidency in 2024.

If you think that Trump will become Palpatine in just 2 years then you really overestimate him.

Well, he's damn sure trying. I wouldn't put anything past him. You've said yourself he's a nut. What do you think insane people with power do? (psst, one invaded your country in the first half of the 20'th century)

[matthewfarmery]

So while Biden did win the vote, these two Republicans tried to over turn that. In fact, they nearly succeeded. But at the last minute, there was a change of heart.

No, they were not nearly any where being succeed.

That decision was from the local panel, even if they didn't reverse course, it would move to a higher panel, and hypothetically even if that panel don't certify it, the Michigan's secretary of state already said that she has the authority to canvas the votes and will use that authority to make sure the result is certified if the panels insist on letting politic stand in the way.

So no, aside from a bit of partisan annoyance, the result in Michigan had never been at any point at risk in any shape or form - change of heart or not. Yes things are bad, but the reason they sound 10x worse because everything have to be dramatized. Just like the quote below

How long will this last? how long before he destroys American from within? And with the latest firing, that is what Trump is doing. And the GOP are just looking the other way while America crumbles.

He's not destroying anything except his own inner circles. These people are simply his appointees, employee at will he can fire as he please, they are his people. Like correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember a lot of you prior to the election result were calling for a "house cleaning" anyway. So once Trump is out, these people would be going out with him anyway. If anything, I take it as positive. The people appointed by Trump are often accused as his "yes man or puppet", but if that's the case, explain the high turn about rate and repeat firing from his cabinet? It's proof that a good chunk of people (not all) despite working under him still do not follow him. I'm tell you one thing that is crumbling for sure - and that is Trump - and that's it.

I mentioned this before, but if there one person Trump wants to fire the most, it gotta be Fauci. Despite Trump technically has the power to do it, and technically he can replace everyone along the decision chain to make it happens, Fauci is still here while being Trump's public enemy #1. Samething about the fuss when he shuffled defense officials last week and people talked as if he's consolidating military power for a coup, I just watched and shaked my head. Those are just civilian appointees (despite the lofty tittles), until I see Trump can willy nilly fire/replace/remove actual uniformed official, the US military stands high.

Like seriously, do people think Trump is the Thai king or something? Trump may think himself as Maha Vajiralongkorn, but in the land the United of A, he is not. He's a clown and you're free to laugh at him (in fact I encourage it), but please don't try to make him sound more than he is. It's weird, people are giving Trump way too much credits even as they're shiting on him.

But he is destroying things, His latest firing of Chris Krebs proves that. I don't think Trump appointed him? And there been a fair amount of backlash over this firing, from many sides.

Trump is firing those that have stood up to him, and placing his own puppets in place. All this isn't helping matters at all.

[Mightysword]

I'm not arguing with what he's trying to do, but the dramatic effect that often associated with his action. Put it as simple as this: the "easier" you see him doing something, it just means it will be equally easy to revert the same thing, be it about policy or personnel.

What we're seeing is a house full of grown arse men acting like children. It's unsightly yes, but the house itself is not coming down, period.

[mr.WHO]

Well, he's damn sure trying. I wouldn't put anything past him. You've said yourself he's a nut. What do you think insane people with power do? (psst, one invaded your country in the first half of the 20'th century)

Believe me I can tell the difference between Trump and Hitler, so trying to make such comparison actually make you look a bit unsound.
I can also tell the difference between Biden and Stalin for the people on the other side of spectrum and they looks unsound too.

My grandparents generation paid with blood for this knowledge, so it sux to see current generation to trivialize this to modern political BS.
I'm sure any remaining WW2 veteran would concur.

[Vertigo 7]

Well, he's damn sure trying. I wouldn't put anything past him. You've said yourself he's a nut. What do you think insane people with power do? (psst, one invaded your country in the first half of the 20'th century)

Believe me I can tell the difference between Trump and Hitler, so trying to make such comparison actually make you look a bit unsound.
I can also tell the difference between Biden and Stalin for the people on the other side of spectrum.

My grandparents generation paid with blood for this knowledge, so it sux to see current generation to trivialize this to modern political BS.
I'm sure any remaining WW2 veteran would concur.

I'm not trivializing anything. You're the one that's trivialized Trump. The two are far more alike than you would care to admit. Just because he hasn't tried to invade Europe, that doesn't take away from his impulses and behaviors. Kids in cages, ring a bell? Forced hysterectomies, extra judicial killings, attacks on US citizens, I could go on.

And since you decided to go this route, it wasn't too long ago you were insinuating something about Trump's German heritage as we were talking about Neo-Nazis in the US.

As we were drifting a bit too off-topic I checked Trump family origin and....hmmmmmmmmm.

[mr.WHO]

Kids in cages, ring a bell? Forced hysterectomies, extra judicial killings, attacks on US citizens, I could go on.

I haven't heard about hysterectomies, but everything else was started or continued by Obama, so by the same logic he's Hitler too - given our discusion in Biden topic I'd be more keen to agree on that.
If you continue to trivialize, then you get to the point where basically anyone has anything in common with Hitler and is secret nazi.
I'm quite sure Hitler at some point in his life said that grass is green and sky is blue - should we pretent it's not or be accused of being a secret nazi?
Because it's already like that for many Twitter nutjobs throwing nazi/fashist tag left, right and center.

Untill 14th of December it is Trump right to try and expire every legal option. And even if there is one legal option that allow him to claim victory via trick, I'm more confident than not that Congress will not be on his side. With it I don't see how Military could end on his side even if he would magically swich all generals and admirals - this makes him nothing like Hitler and makes this comparison rudiculous.

[Vertigo 7]

Kids in cages, ring a bell? Forced hysterectomies, extra judicial killings, attacks on US citizens, I could go on.

I haven't heard about hysterectomies, but everything else was started or continued by Obama, so by the same logic he's Hitler too - given our discusion in Biden topic I'd be more keen to agree on that.
If you continue to trivialize, then you get to the point where basically anyone has anything in common with Hitler and is secret nazi.
I'm quite sure Hitler at some point in his life said that grass is green and sky is blue - should we pretent it's not or be accused of being a secret nazi?
Because it's already like that for many Twitter nutjobs throwing nazi/fashist tag left, right and center.

Untill 14th of December it is Trump right to try and expire every legal option. And even if there is one legal option that allow him to claim victory via trick, I'm more confident than not that Congress will not be on his side. With it I don't see how Military could end on his side even if he would magically swich all generals and admirals - this makes him nothing like Hitler and makes this comparison rudiculous.

Oh BS, don't even. Obama never ordered the mistreatment of immigrants. You don't know what you're talking about. You're just parroting crap from Trump's twitter feed.

[mr.WHO]

Oh BS, don't even. Obama never ordered the mistreatment of immigrants. You don't know what you're talking about. You're just parroting crap from Trump's twitter feed.

You know that famous photo of children cages was done during Obama administration?
Or that Obama was called deporter-in-chief?
Or that he was the first world leader who developed a tasted in drone-striking the shit out of 3rd world countries?

If you point these on Trump you also need to point it on Obama - there is no way around it.

[Vertigo 7]

Oh BS, don't even. Obama never ordered the mistreatment of immigrants. You don't know what you're talking about. You're just parroting crap from Trump's twitter feed.

You know that famous photo of children cages was done during Obama administration?
Or that Obama was called deporter-in-chief?
Or that he was the first world leader who developed a tasted in drone-striking the shit out of 3rd world countries?

If you point these on Trump you also need to point it on Obama - there is no way around it.

Yeaaahhh no it wasn't. Stay off Breitbart. It rots your brain.

Look, I get that you don't like black people so it's easy for you to blame Obama for all of Trump's cruelty, but that bears no semblance to reality.

[mr.WHO]

Look, I get that you don't like black people so it's easy for you to blame Obama for all of Trump's cruelty, but that bears no semblance to reality.

Stop throwing the color of the skin to the discussion - it has nothing to do with it.
Obama is guilty of continuing many dirty things from Bush Adminsitration and so is Trump.
Obama ran on "CHANGE" from Bush administration and I was actually happy after all the crap of Bush. Still he end up full of shit and, so is Trump.
I'm quite sure we'll be having the same discussion on Biden in 4 years.

[Vertigo 7]

Look, I get that you don't like black people so it's easy for you to blame Obama for all of Trump's cruelty, but that bears no semblance to reality.

Stop throwing the color of the skin to the discussion - it has nothing to do with it.
Obama is guilty of continuing many dirty things from Bush Adminsitration and so is Trump.
Obama ran on "CHANGE" from Bush administration and I was actually happy after all the crap of Bush. Still he end up full of shit and, so is Trump.
I'm quite sure we'll be having the same discussion on Biden in 4 years.

I don't even know why you're pissed off at Obama. You ever lived in the states? Did he do anything to you? He did an awful lot for us, but you just wanna parrot Trump's BS like it's fact or something. Are you mad that "Fort Trump" didn't happen? What is it?

[mr.WHO]

I don't even know why you're pissed off at Obama. You ever lived in the states? Did he do anything to you? He did an awful lot for us, but you just wanna parrot Trump's BS like it's fact or something. Are you mad that "Fort Trump" didn't happen? What is it?

I'm not pissed, but it's as silly to treat Obama as a Second coming of Jesus (and some people treat Trump the same). Lets be honest, both are full of crap, but are treated like holy by their side.
Obama was first black Presiden, yet somehow America become more racist when he end his last term (and he was elected by many black, white and latino voters).
He got Peace noble price, yet be bombed the shit out of many countries without even war declaration.
He promised to end war in Iraq and Afganistan, yet he fueled Arab spring and war in Syria that killed milion and displaced many milions.
Not to mention that he promised to finalized war on terror yet somehow ISIS appeared and grew to the peak during his administration.

One thing he did somewhat good is medical reform and the fact that Trump didn't managed to revert proves it.

Many of these failures are continued by Trump till today - this makes Trump also a failure, so you can't honestly claim Obama was anything better or worse than Trump. Both were full of shit media persona that are glorified too much by their political spectrum.



In regards to "Fort Trump":
- Trump moved a few thousand soldiers to Poland
- Obama was first two build pernament missile defence base in Poland
- Poland enterd NATO during Bush Jr. (probably will his little to none involvement)
- Poland was acceptend to join prepared to enter during Clinton.

That's rather consistent chain and good sign for future Biden administration.

I fully agree with Trump that Europe leech on USA military - thus he had positive impact on at least some NATO countries military spending, Poland included. He's an asshole, but he has a point. Just for that he would deserve to have base named "Fort Trump". Americans often complain that they have "go and save Europe again". Yet Trump approach push Europe to actually be capable of saving itself - there was never so many discussion about making EU army before Trump.
Aparently many analyst say Biden will continue this policy, which I welcome. This also somehow prove that Trump approch towards Europe was correct.

[Vertigo 7]

I don't even know why you're pissed off at Obama. You ever lived in the states? Did he do anything to you? He did an awful lot for us, but you just wanna parrot Trump's BS like it's fact or something. Are you mad that "Fort Trump" didn't happen? What is it?

I'm not pissed, but it's as silly to treat Obama as a Second coming of Jesus, as some people treat Trump. Lets be honest, both are full of crap, but are treated like holy by their side.
Obama was first black Presiden, yet somehow America become more racist when he end his last term than when he started (and he was elected by many black, white and latino voters).
He got Peace noble price yet be bombed the shit out of many countries without even war declaration.
He promised to end war in Iraq and Afganistan, yet he fueled Arab spring and war in Syria that killed milion and displaced many milions.
Not to mention that he promised to finalized war on terror yet somehow ISIS appeared and grew to the peak during his administration.

One thing he did somewhat good is medical reform and the fact that Trump didn't managed to revert proves it.

Many of these failures are continued by Trump till today - this makes Trump also a failure, so you can't honestly claim Obama was anything better or worse than Trump. Both were full of shit media persona that are glorified too much by their political spectrum.

That may be how things appear over in your little corner of the world, but here, in the US, it's night and day. I can honestly say Obama was a million times better than Trump. And I never said he was a second coming or have hailed him as such. I have a laundry list of issues with him and Biden both, but they pail in comparison to the advances he made on healthcare, the economy, climate change, and civil rights. All 4 of which have been an utter disaster under Trump.

Conversely, I have given Trump his due for combatting the opioid issue. That is the one and only thing I have given him credit for and even on that, he should have done more. And I suspect, and I have no proof, the only reason he even half ass did anything about that was because Don Jr. had been caught snorting pills.

Trump's presidency has been little more than a con to expand, or repair, his own personal wealth. Claims to the contrary, he's done absolutely nothing for middle and lower class Americans.

In regards to "Fort Trump" - Trump moved a few thousand soldiers to Poland, but Obama was first two build pernament missile defence base in Poland, Poland enterd NATO during Bush and was prepared to enter during Clinton. That's rather consistent chain and good sign for future Biden administration.
I fully agree with Trump that Europe leech on USA military - thus he had positive impact on at least some NATO countries military spending, Poland included. He's an asshole, but he has a point. Just for that he would deserve to have base named "Fort Trump". Americans often complain that they have "go and save Europe again". Yet Trump approach push Europe to actually be capable of saving itself - there was never so many discussion about making EU army before Trump. Aparently many analyst say Biden will continue this policy, which I welcome.

Where have you heard Americans complaining that they have to "go and save Europe again"? I never heard that when I served. Hell, when was the last time the US fought in Europe? We've complained about fighting in the middle east, because that's where we've been fighting.

Maybe you saw some different discussions taking place but I remember him doing nothing but insulting our NATO allies and our own intelligence services while he was cozying up to Putin and taking him at his word over all others.

[mr.WHO]

That may be how things appear over in your little corner of the world, but here, in the US, it's night and day. I can honestly say Obama was a million times better than Trump. And I never said he was a second coming or have hailed him as such. I have a laundry list of issues with him and Biden both, but they pail in comparison to the advances he made on healthcare, the economy, climate change, and civil rights. All 4 of which have been an utter disaster under Trump.

Conversely, I have given Trump his due for combatting the opioid issue. That is the one and only thing I have given him credit for and even on that, he should have done more. And I suspect, and I have no proof, the only reason he even half ass did anything about that was because Don Jr. had been caught snorting pills.

Trump's presidency has been little more than a con to expand, or repair, his own personal wealth. Claims to the contrary, he's done absolutely nothing for middle and lower class Americans.

I honestly don't see much difference between Obama and Trump, both had some success and failures. Both have been much more fake media persona build around them than what they are in reality.

You can basically make a placeholder form to poll people:

"Trump/Obama is competent leader unlike Obama/Trump who is Communist/Fascist sellout who ruinded America and make it more racist place".

The fact that there is nothing in between those two opinions will end badly for USA and for the world (also you can find local Obama/Trump in almost every single country)

Where have you heard Americans complaining that they have to "go and save Europe again"? I never heard that when I served. Hell, when was the last time the US fought in Europe? We've complained about fighting in the middle east, because that's where we've been fighting.

Maybe you saw some different discussions taking place but I remember him doing nothing but insulting our NATO allies and our own intelligence services while he was cozying up to Putin and taking him at his word over all others.

1) I remember Americans rub Europe in the face for 2 World Wars frequently before 9/11. Obama wanted to retract troops from Europe which stay here for 50+ years (which I assume probably cost as much as nearly 20 years of stay in Iraq).

2) Sometimes insults are needed becasue seriosly NATO armies were falling apart - Britan untill this year had no Aircraft Carriers, France and Italy ran out of missiles during short intervention in Lybia and Poland has more MBT than Germany, France and Britain combined (and Britain wanted to decomission of all their tanks). I think it was two years ago when German Defence ministry warned they have nearly no combat ready aircraft and half land vechicles are down due to shortage of spare parts. Seriously European armies were in such poor state that Trumps' slap in the face was badly needed. Now it seems European armies are in slow recover which will be beneficial for both Europe and USA. I really hope Biden will keep this up otherwise everyone will "go back to normal" ("lets leech on US troops, no need to spend our own money").

[Vertigo 7]

That may be how things appear over in your little corner of the world, but here, in the US, it's night and day. I can honestly say Obama was a million times better than Trump. And I never said he was a second coming or have hailed him as such. I have a laundry list of issues with him and Biden both, but they pail in comparison to the advances he made on healthcare, the economy, climate change, and civil rights. All 4 of which have been an utter disaster under Trump.

Conversely, I have given Trump his due for combatting the opioid issue. That is the one and only thing I have given him credit for and even on that, he should have done more. And I suspect, and I have no proof, the only reason he even half ass did anything about that was because Don Jr. had been caught snorting pills.

Trump's presidency has been little more than a con to expand, or repair, his own personal wealth. Claims to the contrary, he's done absolutely nothing for middle and lower class Americans.

I honestly don't see much difference between Obama and Trump, both had some success and failures. Both have been much more fake media persona build around them than what they are in reality.

You can basically make a placeholder form to poll people:

"Trump/Obama is competent leader unlike Obama/Trump who is Communist/Fascist sellout who ruinded America and make it more racist place".

The fact that there is nothing in between those two opinions will end badly for USA and for the world (also you can find local Obama/Trump in almost every single country)

Well if you can't tell the difference between the two, then I feel sorry for you.

Where have you heard Americans complaining that they have to "go and save Europe again"? I never heard that when I served. Hell, when was the last time the US fought in Europe? We've complained about fighting in the middle east, because that's where we've been fighting.

Maybe you saw some different discussions taking place but I remember him doing nothing but insulting our NATO allies and our own intelligence services while he was cozying up to Putin and taking him at his word over all others.

1) I remember Americans rub Europe in the face for 2 World Wars frequently before 9/11. Obama wanted to retract troops from Europe which stay here for 50+ years (which I assume probably cost as much as nearly 20 years of stay in Iraq).

2) Sometimes insults are needed becasue seriosly NATO armies were falling apart - Britan untill this year had no Aircraft Carriers, France and Italy ran out of missiles during short intervention in Lybia and Poland has more MBT than Germany, France and Britain combined (and Britain was thiking about decomission of all tanks). I think it was two years ago where German Defence ministry warned they have nearly no combat ready aircraft and half land vechicles are down due to shortage of spare parts. Seriously European armies were in such poor state that Trumps' slap in the face was badly needed. Now it seems European armies are in slow recover which will be beneficial for both Europe and USA. I really hope Biden will keep this up otherwise everyone will "go back to normal" ("lets leech on US troops, no need to spend our own money").

Okay, lets pretend for a moment that Trump's insults to our allies weren't a nod and a wink to Putin and other dictators around the globe. Given his decisions to give North Korea, China, Russia, Al-Qaida, and that Saudi Prince whoseit that ordered the murder and dismemberment of Jamal Khashoggi preferential treatment, his motives appear a bit suspect to quite a lot of people around the world.

[RegisterMe]

mr.Who seems to me you're cherry picking what you consider to be similarities (even if they're not) between the foreign policies of Trump and Obama. But you're not mentioning many other significant differences eg:-

* Trump doing his best to wreck the WTO (compare and contrast with Obama)
* Trump pulling out of the Iran non-proliferation deal (compare and contrast with Obama)
* Turmp pulling out of the Paris Climate Accord (Obama basically made it happen)
* Trump actively undermining NATO (whereas Obama, realistically, started a "pivot" towards Asia-Pac)
* Trump pulling out of trade deals eg NAFTA / TPP
* Trump slapping tariffs on everybody left right and centre
* Trump pulling the US out of the WHO (compare and contrast Obama funding for CDC epidemic monitoring and prevention)
* Even if Obama's commitment to sorting out the mess in the Middle East (most recently actively contributed to by the US) at least he never unilaterally pulled forces out without consulting his allies and throwing the Kurds under a bus whilst he was at it
* Likewise with moving the American embassy to Jerusalem and various other steps to normalise the situation between Israel and Palestine (though I grant you Trump deserves some credit for the normalisation of relations between the UAE, I think it is, and Israel).

[Mightysword]

2) Sometimes insults are needed becasue seriosly NATO armies were falling apart - Britan untill this year had no Aircraft Carriers, France and Italy ran out of missiles during short intervention in Lybia and Poland has more MBT than Germany, France and Britain combined (and Britain wanted to decomission of all their tanks). I think it was two years ago when German Defence ministry warned they have nearly no combat ready aircraft and half land vechicles are down due to shortage of spare parts. Seriously European armies were in such poor state that Trumps' slap in the face was badly needed. Now it seems European armies are in slow recover which will be beneficial for both Europe and USA. I really hope Biden will keep this up otherwise everyone will "go back to normal" ("lets leech on US troops, no need to spend our own money").

I think most people in the US only look at this issue on the political side while not being aware of the reality/practical side of it. I had regularly come across Europeans that make fun of the state of their army. At first I thought it's just an internet thing, and people making meme or being over dramatic, so in a few instance I did a little dig around for some reports/audits on the military of NATO's nation and ... they were mostly even worse than the memes. And I don't mean that by just some # like % of GDP that often come up in these arguments. But things like you said: the readiness of the army, state of equipment, inventory for spare parts ...etc...

I do recall a few European on here made fun of their military in this tread a couple years ago when the issue was brought up.

I'm not sure if Bill Clinton said it ( I wasn't in the US then), but I know Bush and Obama said it. So to that end I don't think Trump really can take credit for that, he's basically repeating the same things his two predecessors had said ... just with a lot less tack. I think Crimea is probably main trigger for it. I'm no military expert so this is just my own take, but I think for a long time Europe got complacent in thinking the "Nuclear Deterrent" means a guarantor of no conflict with Russia ever happens. They probably realize they need to have a soft-deterrence as well without relying on the big red button, something their current state of military do no favor of.

[Vertigo 7]

* Even if Obama's commitment to sorting out the mess in the Middle East (most recently actively contributed to by the US) at least he never unilaterally pulled forces out without consulting his allies and throwing the Kurds under a bus whilst he was at it
* Likewise with moving the American embassy to Jerusalem and various other steps to normalise the situation between Israel and Palestine (though I grant you Trump deserves some credit for the normalisation of relations between the UAE, I think it is, and Israel).

Didn't Trump put that slum lord Kushner in charge of sorting out the Middle East? How'd that work out for em?

[Alan Phipps]

@ mr.WHO: Just a small comment about European military equipment and capabilities and why the perceived problem is largely independent of US Presidential elections.

Low combat projection levels are not necessarily due to lack of will or commitment by the individual European nations but more reflect the terribly inflated costs passed on by high tech capability Defence/Defense Contractors, of which many of those involved in European armaments development and support are based in the USA. Even where that may not apply to the main weapon platform, in many cases it still applies to some extent to the fitted technology being supplied directly or modified/built locally under licence from the USA.

Example case in point: UK's Apache Attack Helicopters.

I don't think Trump or Biden in power would have much effect on that ongoing state of affairs.

[Vertigo 7]

@ mr.WHO: Just a small comment about European military equipment and capabilities and why the perceived problem is largely independent of US Presidential elections.

Low combat projection levels are not necessarily due to lack of will or commitment by the individual European nations but more reflect the terribly inflated costs passed on by high tech capability Defence/Defense Contractors, of which many of those involved in European armaments development and support are based in the USA. Even where that may not apply to the main weapon platform, in many cases it still applies to some extent to the fitted technology being supplied directly or modified/built locally under licence from the USA.

Example case in point: UK's Apache Attack Helicopters.

I don't think Trump or Biden in power would have much effect on that ongoing state of affairs.

This is very true and not just limited to Europe. We've been selling and licensing military equipment to all of our allies for decades. It was a shock to me to see the same advanced radar and weapon systems on Japanese destroyers that we have back in 2002, not a clone. It wasn't until I asked around that I found out that our European and Asian allies have the same equipment and utilize the same FOTC/COP systems. This has benefited all involved to run joint operations.