Trump

Anything not relating to the X-Universe games (general tech talk, other games...) belongs here. Please read the rules before posting.

Moderator: Moderators for English X Forum

User avatar
Usenko
Posts: 7856
Joined: Wed, 4. Apr 07, 02:25
x3

Re: Trump

Post by Usenko » Thu, 29. Nov 18, 12:43

Bishop149 wrote:
Thu, 29. Nov 18, 11:02
There is a bit of a left leaning majority here (probably due to the propensity of Europeans here), but I feel I our minority of right wingers give good account of themselves. This thread is pretty good evidence this isn't exactly an echo chamber. Furthermore the fact its remains unlocked after 500 pages is pretty good evidence of both pretty good behaviour from us lot combined with excellent moderation.
As a member of the conservative minority, I'm happy to say that I feel like I am listened to. Disagreed with, sure, but courteously. ;)
Morkonan wrote:What really happened isn't as exciting. Putin flexed his left thigh during his morning ride on a flying bear, right after beating fifty Judo blackbelts, which he does upon rising every morning. (Not that Putin sleeps, it's just that he doesn't want to make others feel inadequate.)

pjknibbs
Posts: 41359
Joined: Wed, 6. Nov 02, 20:31
x4

Re: Trump

Post by pjknibbs » Thu, 29. Nov 18, 13:44

Usenko wrote:
Thu, 29. Nov 18, 12:43
As a member of the conservative minority, I'm happy to say that I feel like I am listened to. Disagreed with, sure, but courteously. ;)
I disagree totally, and you smell of elderberries! (Does that make it feel more like the Internet now? :D )

User avatar
Hank001
Posts: 1652
Joined: Tue, 21. Feb 06, 23:50
x3ap

Re: Trump

Post by Hank001 » Thu, 29. Nov 18, 16:03

pjknibbs tossed out:
I disagree totally, and you smell of elderberries! (Does that make it feel more like the Internet now? :D )
Compared to other forums which have either been shut down or diverged into one of two extremes depending on who won the trolling wars; this seems to be the last free forum left and believe me, it's moderation is fair and frequent compaired to ANY moderation you're apt to have found elsewhere. I put that down to outright collusion to keep ot that way by Egosoft and if there is one thing I could be thankful for during the American Thanksgiving holiday is that they do.

And if anyone actually followed that GOG thread (I'm on the site but refuse to post with adolescents) they'd realized that like most devolving threads elsewhere it's a game of the loudest troll wins.

So thank you Egosoft for your endulgence and moderation.

:lol:
The answer to life, the universe and everything:
MIND THE GAP

User avatar
Morkonan
Posts: 10113
Joined: Sun, 25. Sep 11, 04:33
x3tc

Re: Trump

Post by Morkonan » Thu, 29. Nov 18, 18:40

Bishop149 wrote:
Thu, 29. Nov 18, 11:02
...I think you misunderstood, the headline was clickbaity in that it lead those that don't bother to read the rest toward an particular (incorrect) conclusion, the one you have adopted.
But those that did bother to read it should have realise that what was meant by that word was that if you are pregnant and abortion is removed as an option, (which is essentially what a "heartbeat rule" does, bans abortion via a technicality) then motherhood DOES becomes mandatory, having been made compulsory by the direct legal action of state . . . . . which you will find is almost the EXACT dictionary definition of the word "mandatory". :roll:
I didn't misunderstand. The article is misleading and attempts to push the idea that "motherhood is mandatory" because it gets clicks... I do agree that the proposed Bill is stupid, though. I also do not think it will stand the test of time in the courts even if the governor doesn't veto it. But, the Bill doesn't ban other options, like retro-active measures like "the Morning After Pill" nor does it ban regular proactive birth-control methods.
... I for one do not have time to out and cross-examine every damn thing for myself.
Agreed. But, we all should when we can.
Morkonan wrote:
Tue, 27. Nov 18, 18:41
To pick up on this one, I'll leave aside for the moment the obvious fact that the social conditions in which most addicts find themselves are direct symptom of the failures of states in which they live, and it hardly seems fair for the state to essentially say: "We have failed in our duty of care for you, we will now punish you for the consequences of our failure".
That's coming dangerously close to someone blaming the "State" for their own choices... "The Devil Made Me Do It."

I do agree, of course, that we must address the issue of drug abuse as a society and that we must increase our efforts to prevent and treat drug abuse. But, I hesitate to affirm that a drug addict's problem is a "direct symptom of the failures of states in which they live." No. There are drug addicts in my State and I am not a drug addict, despite all the opportunities and inducements I have encountered in my own life. So... why is that? I'm also not an alcoholic or an iPhone addict... :)
Lets assume for a minute that everything you say is true, that the addict will be an unfit parent and the child will inevitably become a burden to the state (which is an oxymoron, the very idea that a citizen could be burden to an entity whose sole function is to ensure their well being is patently ridiculous)
You are making the invalid assumption that the State's "sole function is to ensure their well being." That is not the "sole function" of the state. Of course, the principle of ensuring the well-being of its citizens is a driving factor in all that is does, or should be, this doesn't apply to doing so to the detriment of others. What about the well-being of citizens who aren't drug addicts? Aren't they deserving of consideration, too? At some point the resources of the State will become overwhelmed, making it impossible for it to "ensure the well-being" of other citizens who are not drug addicts or completely dependent upon the State for their survival.

I am greatly in favor of social programs and State agencies that specialize in these problems. In that opinion, I deviate from what some "conservatives" would prefer. I am not blind to the needs of "the People" where there is suffering. But, the State's responsibility has limits. The State can not simply take up the responsibilities of individuals for themselves whenever someone makes a bad choice. Yes, the State must promote stability and, yes, it is "right" for the State to assist or even care for those who are unable to care for themselves. But, in the current epidemic that is sweeping the US, we can't just shift responsibility to the States, ignoring the fact that people are out there making choices for themselves.
. . . . well if the addict has no wish to become a parent then it would seem that allowing them an abortion is a close to optimal solution, right?
If you would like to deny that procedure on the basis of YOUR morality not the expectant mothers, well then frankly that's your problem and you've no right to make it hers.
Oooh, a new argument that nobody involved in this discussion has brought up, except for you, certainly not myself, and you even answer it for yourself! Awesome! It's like you're a dialectic magician, conjuring arguments out of thin air! :) Please point out in any post related to this where I broached the idea of forcing my moral principles upon an expectant mother.

But, there is something to be said here that can't be avoided - IF, as you say, the State is responsible for the "well being" of its people, does the State have any responsibility to do this for the "unborn?" Keep in mind that the health of a fetus IS a concern of the State and the State will act, for instance in cases of public healthcare, to preserve and protect the health of a fetus. So... Just how far does that responsibility go?

It's not an easy argument to have, is it? That's the true problem. :) You can couch an argument quite nicely that the State has a responsibility to preserve the health of a fetus without ever entering the realm of "morality" where "abortion" is concerned. In fact, you can dance around the entire spectrum on either side of a "for or against" argument without touching on a broad range of inflammatory subjects related to it.

Should we consider ALL of these concerns that the citizens may have? What arguments are excluded and why? What arguments must we accept as being worthy of debate and why? What arguments are moot, if any?
Edit: I also find it rather ironic that people would who have no hesitation declaring an addict unfit for the role of parenthood, would ELECT SODDING DONALD TRUMP TO THE ROLE OF PRESIDENT OF THE USA!! :D
Are you attributing this to myself or just in general? I do not think that drug addicts are fit for the role of being parents. Do you?
...There is a bit of a left leaning majority here (probably due to the propensity of Europeans here), but I feel I our minority of right wingers give good account of themselves. This thread is pretty good evidence this isn't exactly an echo chamber. Furthermore the fact its remains unlocked after 500 pages is pretty good evidence of both pretty good behaviour from us lot combined with excellent moderation.
Well, the thread has come under threat several times. :) I think that the participants have been willing to acknowledge and act upon moderator warnings because of the reward they receive from interacting in this thread. Of those who are interested, who'd want to see a thread on such a daily news-headline subject locked? And, then what? Immediately after being locked, someone else would start a "Guess what Trump did today" thread and we'd just be "off to the races," again. :)

I'd like to point out that there's evidence here that shows not every "Right" or "Left" winger is the same. We have different views that aren't easy to pigeonhole into such categories. Even politicians don't fully comply with the standards of their chosen...wingedness. For instance, I'm a "Fiscal Conservative" that also holds to heretical views like the necessity of certain types of government programs, welfare, public health care, and even economic oversight, regulatory agencies, certain sorts of direct controls on economic policy in order to economic promote stability and healthy capitalism, etc... So, I have a lot of "Left Leaning" views if a hardline "Right Winger" was examining my political priorities and defining them for themselves.

I honestly don't know how to define a "Platonic" form of Right or Left "Winger." (ie:A "pure" Right or Left agenda)
On the Egosoft Forums in general
Egosoft mods generally do a good job of moderating their own actions. In general, in Off-Topic, forum members are a bit more mature, aged, and broken-down remnants of humanity... For some of us, it's difficult to put enough energy into being banned than seems to be the case with some other game forums. I'd also like to add that most participants in OT tend to add substantive views to the discussions they choose to participate in. They seem to actually have something to say... Imagine that!

Note: There are plenty of unmoderated, or practically so, forums out there and lots of discussion forums where there are few standards for behavior. Some of those forums even have productive discussions! But, disruptive or inflammatory acts by forum members usually don't promote sensible discussions. It's often hard to separate the wheat from the chaff in some forums.

User avatar
BugMeister
Posts: 13647
Joined: Thu, 15. Jul 04, 04:41
x4

Re: Trump

Post by BugMeister » Fri, 30. Nov 18, 13:02

the USA remains the land of the free and the home of the brave:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gREDztn7-w

as the Trump Admin continues to provoke self-examination
we see the USA gradually awaken to the realities of politics..

- would that things were the same here in the UK, as we are poised to plummet into the unknown beyond the EU horizon.. :doh:
- the whole universe is running in BETA mode - we're working on it.. beep..!! :D :thumb_up:

RegisterMe
Posts: 8903
Joined: Sun, 14. Oct 07, 17:47
x4

Re: Trump

Post by RegisterMe » Fri, 30. Nov 18, 14:42

CNN on Trump, Russia and the recent Cohen revelations. Worth a watch :).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZK8b-aZVUY
I can't breathe.

- George Floyd, 25th May 2020

User avatar
BugMeister
Posts: 13647
Joined: Thu, 15. Jul 04, 04:41
x4

Re: Trump

Post by BugMeister » Sun, 2. Dec 18, 04:20

BugMeister wrote:
Thu, 29. Jun 17, 00:11
his last line of defence will be..
"So what, if I do business with the Russians - what's wrong with that..?"

- by then he will have stepped off the edge..
- crikey that was posted way back in June 2017..
- this evil Trump swamp really has been stinking for far too long..
- the whole universe is running in BETA mode - we're working on it.. beep..!! :D :thumb_up:

User avatar
Hank001
Posts: 1652
Joined: Tue, 21. Feb 06, 23:50
x3ap

Re: Trump

Post by Hank001 » Sun, 2. Dec 18, 05:08

BugMeister wrote:
- this evil Trump swamp really has been stinking for far too long..

Trump rattled over Cohen reveal

Trump's been walking the edge of the chasm since he fired Comey. Pretty soon something's going to push him over the edge soon and we'll either no longer have a democracy or have the first American President to be committed to a mental institution. Personally I'm in favor of the latter.
He's making Nixon look like a Sunday School teacher. :roll:
The answer to life, the universe and everything:
MIND THE GAP

User avatar
BugMeister
Posts: 13647
Joined: Thu, 15. Jul 04, 04:41
x4

Re: Trump

Post by BugMeister » Sun, 2. Dec 18, 13:18

he is expert at leaving smokescreens - his political stance often disappears in a puff of smoke as he rambles off into personal self-aggrandisement and self-praise..
but when he starts lying about his own lies, it gets a wee bit confusing trying to follow his logic ( - or rather, his lack of logic)..
he must know that he is deliberately doing this, yet he continues to pile lie upon lie without any attempt to clarify matters..
this behaviour does smack of some mental inability to comprehend the basic rules of communication, let alone probity in governance..

- his father suffered from dementia, could this be a sign of early-onset dementia in the President..??
Last edited by BugMeister on Sun, 2. Dec 18, 14:22, edited 2 times in total.
- the whole universe is running in BETA mode - we're working on it.. beep..!! :D :thumb_up:

User avatar
BugMeister
Posts: 13647
Joined: Thu, 15. Jul 04, 04:41
x4

Re: Trump

Post by BugMeister » Sun, 2. Dec 18, 14:05

Professor Richard Painter speaks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4c3fLqguq4

- respect! 8)

Question: What is Stephen Miller doing in the White House? :gruebel: :gruebel:

the legal angles:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL7nOkIQJpg
- the whole universe is running in BETA mode - we're working on it.. beep..!! :D :thumb_up:

User avatar
BugMeister
Posts: 13647
Joined: Thu, 15. Jul 04, 04:41
x4

Re: Trump

Post by BugMeister » Mon, 3. Dec 18, 15:36

this disgraceful man:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwvjkJXaIJE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEQBHeZqDIo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5BLKKREIck

- Putin's relationship with Trump is somewhat like Col. Tom Parker's relationship with Elvis
- it's all about exploitation..

- It strikes me that when Trump makes a deal, it's usually some sort of con trick - the classic grifter's modus operandi..
- when he hears that Manafort and/or Cohen makes a "deal" with Mueller, Trumps criminal mind logically (illogically) sees it as something crooked..
- he really is severely BENT from a political point of view..

- in truth, he faces every ageing grifter's nightmare.. lost in the web of his own lies..
- full and complete exposure of his crimes, followed by prison and/or obscurity in the exile of disgraced penury..
- the fall of a carney is never a pretty sight..

- he desperately needs the support (- and care..) of his family, as did Elvis.. :(
- the whole universe is running in BETA mode - we're working on it.. beep..!! :D :thumb_up:

siddham
Posts: 513
Joined: Thu, 25. Nov 04, 21:05
x3tc

Re: Trump

Post by siddham » Mon, 3. Dec 18, 17:33

I find the Trump phenomenon fascinating.
One would get the impression from the Western neoliberal media that everyone despises Trump and he is almost as bad as Caligula or something. But of course Trump would not be President Trump if that were true. Trump has enormous support in the US and around the world; it's just the neoliberal media regards those people as disreputable and deplorable.
I see Trump and Brexit and the general rise in conservatism and nationalism and the alt-right etc as symptomatic of deep social unrest and dissatisfaction in the population to the deep structural changes being implemented at a global level by the neoliberal elites. Trump like Brexit etc is a symptom not a cause. A symptom of disruption and change.
Trump is doing his best to represent conservative nationalism (MAGA) and to oppose rampant neoliberal globalism. I don’t necessarily support his actual policies; but I do have a lot of sympathy for conservative nationalism. I prefer internationalism as against globalism - i.e. relations among sovereign nation states as against the imposition of a sort of transnational corporate imperium by means of so-called free trade deals and transnational institutions which represent the interests of shareholders and investors rather than the interests of nations and citizens.

User avatar
BugMeister
Posts: 13647
Joined: Thu, 15. Jul 04, 04:41
x4

Re: Trump

Post by BugMeister » Mon, 3. Dec 18, 20:15

- he's a wise-guy for sure, but he's certainly not a wise man.. :lol:
- the whole universe is running in BETA mode - we're working on it.. beep..!! :D :thumb_up:

siddham
Posts: 513
Joined: Thu, 25. Nov 04, 21:05
x3tc

Re: Trump

Post by siddham » Mon, 3. Dec 18, 23:56

I think he is a lot wiser than many give him credit for. A lot of what he says that puts the media in a spin is said for effect. It's part of his negotiation style and tactics.

User avatar
BugMeister
Posts: 13647
Joined: Thu, 15. Jul 04, 04:41
x4

Re: Trump

Post by BugMeister » Tue, 4. Dec 18, 09:05

- when you factor in the vast sums of Russian "dodgy" money looted from the old USSR state assets by an appointed oligarchy at the behest of Vladimir Putin, the matter becomes a somewhat "shady" practice..
- Trump's ability to work effectively in such an environment would indeed prove useful, were he also as criminally minded - Trump has demonstrated exactly how capable he is at "tactics and negotiations"..
- whether this ability to skirt close to the edge when taking such huge risks is a useful skill for a politician, particularly in matters of national security, is a whole other matter - there are strict ethical rules to abide by..
- notwithstanding the need for complete and open probity in governance and international protocol, particularly when dealing with matters of sovereign security..

- I agree with you wholeheartedly - "Tactics and negotiations" he has aplenty, but tact and diplomacy has he none..
- In the political arena Mr Trump possesses no talent whatsoever - in fact, he's as dumb as a rock.. :lol:
- the whole universe is running in BETA mode - we're working on it.. beep..!! :D :thumb_up:

siddham
Posts: 513
Joined: Thu, 25. Nov 04, 21:05
x3tc

Re: Trump

Post by siddham » Tue, 4. Dec 18, 12:29

In fact it has been Putin who halted the looting of the Russian economy that followed in the chaos of the dissolution of the USSR
Putin brought the oligarchs under control and even began re-nationalizing some of Russia's strategic resources
Putin restored order to the Russian economy and national pride to Russia - Russia is back on the world stage
Putin is a conservative nationalist and he is probably the most popular world leader today (among the Russians)
He is hated by the Western neoliberal globalist elites for doing all this; that's why Western media is full of anti-Russian and anti-Putin propaganda

User avatar
Usenko
Posts: 7856
Joined: Wed, 4. Apr 07, 02:25
x3

Re: Trump

Post by Usenko » Tue, 4. Dec 18, 13:47

siddham wrote:
Tue, 4. Dec 18, 12:29
In fact it has been Putin who halted the looting of the Russian economy that followed in the chaos of the dissolution of the USSR
Putin brought the oligarchs under control and even began re-nationalizing some of Russia's strategic resources
Putin restored order to the Russian economy and national pride to Russia - Russia is back on the world stage
Putin is a conservative nationalist and he is probably the most popular world leader today (among the Russians)
He is hated by the Western neoliberal globalist elites for doing all this; that's why Western media is full of anti-Russian and anti-Putin propaganda
I have to throw in here that if you are a big fan of freedom, then your will quite justifiably find Putin problematic at best.

Whether or not he's good for the economy of Russia, whether or not he's popular, he's pretty awful to anyone who disagrees with him. From my viewpoint, all those other things really don't matter a lot if they're achieved at the cost of the freedoms of his people.

No, he's not hated by the West for his successes. Frankly, if that was all there was to him, he'd probably be largely ignored. He's hated for his ethics, which are so bad that they're noticeable in a world containing Trump (and our own dreadful leaders in Australia).
Morkonan wrote:What really happened isn't as exciting. Putin flexed his left thigh during his morning ride on a flying bear, right after beating fifty Judo blackbelts, which he does upon rising every morning. (Not that Putin sleeps, it's just that he doesn't want to make others feel inadequate.)

Bishop149
Posts: 7232
Joined: Fri, 9. Apr 04, 21:19
x3

Re: Trump

Post by Bishop149 » Tue, 4. Dec 18, 15:00

siddham wrote:
Mon, 3. Dec 18, 17:33
But of course Trump would not be President Trump if that were true. Trump has enormous support in the US and around the world
Well he only needed to poll just under half of the cast vote to be elected, and given the turnout of ~62% that's equates just under a third of the US population.
Extrapolating to the global scale this works our as ~1.2% of humans alive today definitely think Trump might make a good president.

But none the less, this remains part of why I for one find the topic so hard to let go. It STAGGERS me that even 30% of US could look at Donald Trump, a man who:
- has made a career as a literal (albeit high end) con man.
- has managed to lose (a lot of) money running a casino.
- has bankrupted no less than 6 companies.
- would be substantially richer than he is today of he had just spent the last 5 decades playing golf.
- is by all accounts and complete a utter trashfire of a failure, just one who had the good fortune to be born rich.
and think. . . . . . . That guy would make a good President!

This has caused me a cognitive dissonance that remains unresolved after 2 sodding years . . . . mostly because the man himself keeps adding to it by being so transparently awful at his job.
Its doubly hard to process given the short shrift those very same people gave his predecessor.
I think a lot of the press of which you speak feels exactly the same and has essentially been engaged in an ongoing process of "Look at this! Still think he's any good?. . . . Really!? . . .Ok how about now? . . . You're kidding! . . . Look at this!!. . . Seriously, how far can he push this!! etc"
siddham wrote:
Mon, 3. Dec 18, 17:33
I see Trump and Brexit and the general rise in conservatism and nationalism and the alt-right etc as symptomatic of deep social unrest and dissatisfaction in the population to the deep structural changes being implemented at a global level by the neoliberal elites.
This is probably true but "the population" has picked entirely the wrong targets for their ire, whilst simultaneously handing control to the very people they should be lining up against the wall.
It's hard to think of a more perfect example of this than objecting to control by an "elite" by electing Donald Trump who then celebrates in his gold plated penthouse.
BugMeister wrote:
Tue, 4. Dec 18, 09:05
In the political arena Mr Trump possesses no talent whatsoever - in fact, he's as dumb as a rock.. :lol:
He's just dumb as a rock fullstop.
All his business ventures would have gone equally as well if he'd just made all his decisions by flipping a coin.
siddham wrote:
Tue, 4. Dec 18, 12:29
[Putin is great]
Ah but. . .
a) Putin is not dumb as a rock.
b) Putin has quite possibly made himself the richest man in the world in the process of all this. His actual wealth is very hard to assess because he ain't telling and has a whole state at his disposal to hide and funnel it, but only accounting for what CAN be proven he's worth at least $40 Billion, he makes Trump look like pauper.
He hasn't "halted the looting" or "controlled the oligarchs", he's simply combined the roles of both with government . . . . . and then made it all himself.
Trump would LOVE to be able to do this, this is why he admires Putin. He's trying his best but thankfully for America he's not even a tenth as smart as Putin and has the attention span of a gnat.
"Shoot for the Moon. If you miss, you'll end up co-orbiting the Sun alongside Earth, living out your days alone in the void within sight of the lush, welcoming home you left behind." - XKCD

User avatar
Observe
Posts: 5079
Joined: Fri, 30. Dec 05, 17:47
xr

Re: Trump

Post by Observe » Tue, 4. Dec 18, 18:57

Bishop149 wrote:
Tue, 4. Dec 18, 15:00
This has caused me a cognitive dissonance that remains unresolved after 2 sodding years . . . . mostly because the man himself keeps adding to it by being so transparently awful at his job.
Most of the things you list about Trump, are simply overlooked by many Republicans. To them, Trump represents the way they would like to see the country go. They see a world as one where the end justifies the means.

I'm sure many of his supporters would love Trump to be a more well-mannered President, who espoused the niceties of decency. On the other hand, there are those who love Trump for his crudeness and see it as a way to offend high-minded liberals.

In any case, Trump will in all likelihood get a second term, because a significant percentage of Americans are in favor of his policies - if not his personality.

siddham
Posts: 513
Joined: Thu, 25. Nov 04, 21:05
x3tc

Re: Trump

Post by siddham » Tue, 4. Dec 18, 20:24

Trump did not become a multi-billionaire because he is dumb or accidentally or because he got a good start from his dad.
There are plenty of good reasons to criticize or dislike Donald Trump but those are not credible at all imo.
As to Putin's policies and ethics I disagree completely; I do not believe the Western media propaganda about Russia or Putin.
I know from your replies there will no point in me pursuing this discussion so I will leave you to it gentlemen and wish you all well
All the best

Locked

Return to “Off Topic English”