What do we know about modding X-Rebirth?

[s9ilent]

I take a nice easy easter break only to find omg! A new x3 has been announced and I missed the announcement


Any way straight to the point:


Questions

1. In the example scripts, I've noticed, that in some places you use $variable, and in other you use xxxx.yyyy (e.g. player.age, this.ship)
Will there be "complex" objects in game now?
e.g. Can we do things like this.sector.x, or do will still do this sort of operation across a few lines (get sector; sector get x)
Or are these "constants"/ some special pre defined strings,

2. Multi threaded (y/n)? If yes, how does this affect scripts and the like. (Or is it something like game + scripts on one thread + misc other junks on other thread e.g. rendering, audio, e.t.c)
2b) How will trade related scripts work? (Like the AI script?)
2c) A lot of the time, in scripts we need to use "waits" to prevent UI lag for cpu intensive scripts. Will this still be true (w.r.t multi thread question?)


3. 32bit 2gb ram limit. (not quite a s&m issue... but modded games tend to approach this limit much faster than ye ol' vanilla games)

4. Debugging Improvements? (see my final post in l3+ ideas: break points as script commands)

5. Extensibility w.r.t talking with other programs. e.g. tcp/udp sockets, named pipes? (More than just tfile logfiles please *begs*, they can not be used for real time uses)
Mutex? Cross process thread signaling? Listening to file changes in ntfs (or similar) file systems and signaling the game that a tfile has changed or some way to say a log file is completely written?

6. Is there any possibility for a more "event" driven system. e.g. in c# /winform apps, we have click events, window closed event etc. In x3 we had "some" signals, but it would be nice to have many more. e.g. mostly those focused around, ship/station created, command terminated.
6b) Script destructors? i.e. a script that is run, when a script is terminated.





Things I would like to see in the next game w.r.t s&m

-Ability to reload scripts, with out reloading the game. (As I'm guessing, given the xml nature, that there will be lots of external editing of scripts)

-More Documentation (slap some summaries on those xsd's)

-Less... "blackbox" scripts. (Does anyone actually know what the equipment scripts do... There are some get/set scripts for it, but it doesn't do anything. And some times true amount deducts additional quantities)

-A way to uniquely identify any "object" in game. e.g. this ship, that ship. Presumably you use an integer key internally. (For uses with external programs)



My random 5c's

-3 Seperate xml's: (@Trickmov) I think 3 lighter xml's is better, as opposed to 1 xml to rule them all! Will also make it easier for people to pick up modding (reduce barriers to entry - learning curves, modularity etc.).

-Default values for params, Yay (Not that there is a "huge" or really any demand for it, but it's always nice to see some extra stuff)

-I would've prefered pascal case in the xml scripts, rather than lower case . (Although that is because I come from a c# background)

-Why call it x:r, now there will be all this ambiguity between x3r and x:r?




Hmm... I think thats about it for me (for now *evil voice* mwuhahahah)

[Mad_CatMk2]

My take on:

2a) I'm fairly confident (and sure) that ES has taken into account the multithreading nature of computers these days. They definitely have people that are aware of the forward nature of computers - i.e. developing an engine without multithreading (by 2007) would've been extremely unproductive and possibly harmful to the company's future.

3) Maybe have a toggle for having the LAA flag? (Just give it a fancy name or something) Or have it automatically detect...

[Observe]

From FedCon translation (May 28, 2011) posted in this thread:

Hello everyone! I tried to translate the interview as close to the original as possible. Have fun!

Q: "In the last X-version, there was a script and modding community. Will there be an interface for modding?"

A: "Oh, I haven’t mentioned that before. Modding in general and not only modding but the cooperation with the community at all has always been important for us. We can’t do it so openly like we’ve done it before in the earlier games, there was a basis, where you not only changed the technology basis, but also the gameplay basis from game to game. Everybody could understand immediately what the changes are and what to work with. The present game is very different and the technologies that are applied in it are different and that’s why we can’t invite Modders and involve the community. But this is definitely our goal. It might be that some things only make sense when the game is published, but we always develop the games further when they have already been published in every kind of way and here it will be the same for the future. I think the lights tell us that we have to leave soon for the next show. Thank you very much and good bye."

Sounds like X-Rebirth will be a challenging up-hill climb for modders because so much has changed from what we've become accustomed to with X2-X3. This actually excites me, because the more challenging it is to mod the game the better - as long as there aren't too many restrictions (and I don't think there will be).

[EmperorJon]

I was just wondering what you all think.


For me it'd have to be the ability to script changes to previously hardcoded ship model data. So you can customise weapon compatability, generators etc. Sure this may be built in, but it may not.

[killerog]

Increased weapon and cockpit count to allow ships to be made with not only different weapon load outs, but turret numbers, locations, weapon numbers ect.

A particle effect engine that works, so I can bring my trail effect mod over at the same time as bringing it into the 21st century.

And many many many many other things.

[Mizuchi]

That feature they had in X:BTF in which you could load a custom JPEG into the game as your personal logo and have it appear on your ship.

It'd be cool if you could also add a bunch of different corporate logos and decals and stuff that'd then be used by NPC ships (via random assignment), too.

[jlehtone]

AFAIK. the X3TC S&M is reserved for X3TC S&M. If I were LV, I'd probably ask you to hold your breath until there is X-R S&M Forum. Sadly, I'm not so kind, so I'll just do the move gesture.

[Killjaeden]

top wish:
official Modelexporter including documentation...!

(/ official toolset ...)

[killerog]

top wish:
official Modelexporter including documentation...!

(/ official toolset ...)

Now now, don't push the boat out to far

[Winter Dragon]

Things I badly want to see from an artist's point of view:

1. visible shield meshes on ships with shields equipped. Ie. Shield changes opacity when projectiles hit or the shield pulses indefinately whether projectiles hit it or not.

2. turrets that don't have shared rotational axis constraints of -90, +90 (180 total) for x,y and z axis. This limitation makes spacecraft design rather boring, as you cannot put the turrets in certain places without them firing through the ship.

3. Support multiple smooth group IDs on mesh export. I don't want a cube to look spherical or angles greater than 45 degrees to look curved, especially when I've ordered my IDs on every surface with this in mind. Flat angular spacecraft always looked horrible in X3, let's make them look better!

4. Bring back dynamic lighting in hangars. It's horrible flying in a dark sector and not being able to see anything. Yes you can 'cheat' with self lit textures, but when your ship flies into the hangar it is still dark and looks horrible.

[Rednoahl]

Sounds like X-Rebirth will be a challenging up-hill climb for modders because so much has changed from what we've become accustomed to with X2-X3. This actually excites me, because the more challenging it is to mod the game the better - as long as there aren't too many restrictions (and I don't think there will be).

With the way MD code has evolved since it's introduction I thought it wisest to try to learn it about eighteen months ago - I suspected scripting was a dead end. Over the course of a few months I did manage to get a mission together that lasted a few hours, but that took months to create (and to rub salt in the mission wasn't much fun either.) Quite a lot of the modding community don't appear to have embraced MD, I assume because it does take such an awful long time to test if my example is the same for everyone who tries.

I have to admit I'm a little worried by what Bernd says. It worries me further when comments I've read seem to imply that the modding community won't get a full set of tools (or any at all, possibly.) Makes me wonder if ES are planning to license the tools out for other game devs or if they're using existing tools that require a license. If either is true I wonder if going L5 would be a enough of a workaround too keep everyone happy.

[Dragoongfa]

The modding community is an integral part of EGOSOFT's costumer base, changing the technology of the game for something new and better is one thing that should be expected from the very start.

Restricting access to the modders is totally an other, with the current fan base as it is, such a move would be unwise in the mid term.

Now what will EGOSOFT do with the dev tools is something that only they know; if they are to license the engine and the core of the development tools (which for a game engine and dev tools that are developed for the current gen of hardware it is something that should be expected), it is only logical that whatever they will release to the community will have to have some basic restrictions, at least to maintain their control over their property.

Will such restrictions be prohibitive to the modding community?

I doubt it, because as I said already they know that a big part of their fan base is very interested in modding the game, their efforts (without any cost for EGOSOFT) add hundreds of potential gameplay hours to the game.

Imo I expect something between a total restriction and total freedom for modders.

[Observe]

With the way MD code has evolved since it's introduction I thought it wisest to try to learn it about eighteen months ago - I suspected scripting was a dead end. Over the course of a few months I did manage to get a mission together that lasted a few hours, but that took months to create (and to rub salt in the mission wasn't much fun either.) Quite a lot of the modding community don't appear to have embraced MD, I assume because it does take such an awful long time to test if my example is the same for everyone who tries.

Yes, you are right, the days are numbered for scripting as we have known it. I think part of the reason so few have embraced Mission Director coding, is the documentation has been sparse, and the "style" of Egosoft MD code is to say the least, rather convoluted (hard to follow) when using as examples for purpose of learning . Also, the few who are versed in MD haven't found time to write many tutorials. Hopefully with X Rebirth, there will arise a whole new generation of X-coders who have not been conditioned to the "old ways", and who will take to MD coding as fish to water.

[Rednoahl]

I didn't find coding the MD that hard on it's own, I just found it too time consuming as it is now to be worth it (eventually you can guarantee the quality of the code, but not if it's fun to play - my attempt got too hard so I had to start ripping out all OBS stuff and input specific ships...more code, more typos... seriously time consuming.)

If there was a way of linking the MD to the Galaxy Editor so you could edit things in and out on the fly then perhaps the modding community would be for it more - I think modders had something like that in the Bethseda games. Mind, since Bernd is insistent that the game is totally different to what has gone before, assuming MD has survived intact may be folly on my part.

[Observe]

It worries me further when comments I've read seem to imply that the modding community won't get a full set of tools (or any at all, possibly.)

Most of what we know so far is what Apoch has conveyed:

As for modding, we've been committed for a long time to providing opportunities for people to mod and extend our games, and remain so going forward, as Bernd reiterated recently (sorry, no link handy, but a little search-fu should turn it up easily enough). It's way too early to be commenting on the mod support we plan for future games, but I think it's fair to say that you can expect some pretty cool toys to play with.

Just keep in mind that our focus is first and foremost on building the "primary" game experience, and that for a handful of reasons we can't always release all of the toys for general mass consumption. But we'll see what can be handed out in the future.

From that, I gather they won't release all their internal tools (proprietary?), but some will become available. To me, as long as they provide sufficient tools to export/import models, change game parameters (T files or their equivalent), and create missions/scripts, the modding community will be able to create new tools as needed.

Possibly there will be delay between initial game release and modding tools availability. In any case, it'll take some time before modders learn enough to produce "major" mods. How much time, will, to a large extent depend on community participation and sharing information.

[apricotslice]

I havent read the whole thead, but I read enough to be concerned.

If they move more into MD then they leave me behind.

I'm basically a t file tweaker and basic scriptor. I'm not interested in much more than that.

If they dont provide the tools to tweak the t files, or they remove the ability to port key scripts into the new game, then I'm done.

Egosoft has a mentality of placing insane restrictions on what the game allows you to do, and most of my scripts and mods are about removing those restrictions.

If I cant do that with the new game, there is no longer any real attraction to the game for me. I've not played the original games that I got in the superbox purely because I found out I couldnt add in my existing scripts. So it is the same with the new game.

At the absolute minimum, they need to release an equivalent set of tools as X3Editor and Modmanager, so that the cat/dats can be accessed, and the t-files or equivalents can be altered. And where existing restrictions are carried forward (like claiming in your spacesuit and claim software being illegal) we need to be able to port our existing fixes relatively easily.

[Observe]

At the absolute minimum, they need to release an equivalent set of tools as X3Editor and Modmanager, so that the cat/dats can be accessed, and the t-files or equivalents can be altered.

Yes, and in addition, we need at least a command-line utility for model conversion and 3DS Max import/export.

I am concerned there may be delay obtaining all of the above. We shall see.

[apricotslice]

At the absolute minimum, they need to release an equivalent set of tools as X3Editor and Modmanager, so that the cat/dats can be accessed, and the t-files or equivalents can be altered.

Yes, and in addition, we need at least a command-line utility for model conversion and 3DS Max import/export.

I am concerned there may be delay obtaining all of the above. We shall see.

I hope not. That would be the equivalent of Egosoft shooting themselves in the foot. imo.

A classic example of this was Sins. I didnt get the game until the modding stuff was released, and substantially modded the game very soon after buying it. When they released the next version without the modding tools, I didnt update it at all. And have never gone back to it.

Given how large the modding community is here, for Egosoft to not release modding tools with the release of the game would be a huge slap in the face to the modding community.

And with that thought, one suddenly wonders if the equivalent of Cycrows cheat pack will be available immediately or not ?

[Observe]

A classic example of this was Sins. I didnt get the game until the modding stuff was released, and substantially modded the game very soon after buying it. When they released the next version without the modding tools, I didnt update it at all. And have never gone back to it.

Yep, exactly the same thing happend with Dragon Age.

[Tracker001]

The pattern I'v noticed is that Egosoft starts freeing up modding capabilities not to long after the DRM that publishers want has run its course and is lifted.


Just my 1.5 p worth.


(Not that Ego doen't use a DRM for property protecting ,so as to make the profit projections. Besides anyone here willing to give-up the key's to the kingdome to just anyone in the general puplic ? But thats another subject . )