Afghanistan

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BaronVerde
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Re: Afghanistan

Post by BaronVerde » Mon, 13. Sep 21, 18:34

I see.

Sure, there's a lot of clearing and processing, and I find there should be, as open and unbiased as possible.

I am inclined to trust the WP and NY Times to be able to judge the quality of their sources, and both aren't known for spreading misinformation. The third "writeup" I linked is certainly biased, they even say so. Maybe we get a more detailed statement from those who executed the strike.

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As for Afghanistan, besides all the harassment that's going on from the Taliban to the population, it also seems to sink in that they need foreign collaboration to keep the country running. That might enable some external influence, speculatively to the better.

But if I knew the future I wouldn't hang around here :roll:

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Vertigo 7
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Re: Afghanistan

Post by Vertigo 7 » Mon, 13. Sep 21, 19:56

BaronVerde wrote:
Mon, 13. Sep 21, 17:55
I want to add, if someone uses humans as shields, there is still the other one that pulls the trigger. Even in cheap Hollywood movies the good guys retreat (or switch the phasers to stun :-)) when innocents are involved.
You do get that if "the good guys retreat" the bad guys carry out their mission and kill even more innocent people than may be killed as an unintentional consequence otherwise, right? Life isn't a movie.
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clakclak
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Re: Afghanistan

Post by clakclak » Tue, 14. Sep 21, 11:24

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Mon, 13. Sep 21, 19:56
BaronVerde wrote:
Mon, 13. Sep 21, 17:55
I want to add, if someone uses humans as shields, there is still the other one that pulls the trigger. Even in cheap Hollywood movies the good guys retreat (or switch the phasers to stun :-)) when innocents are involved.
You do get that if "the good guys retreat" the bad guys carry out their mission and kill even more innocent people than may be killed as an unintentional consequence otherwise, right? Life isn't a movie.
Life isn't a movie, thus thinking in "good" and "bad" guys is to simple. There is more context here. Ali, the 16 year old who works for the Taliban to put food on the table for his mother and siblings after his father died is not the same person as Akhundzada and certainly not as bad a human.

An average American soldier doing his job is no Erik Prince making a large profit as long as the war continues.

At the end of the day, the moral question of military interventions is rarely ever as easily answered as it was during World War 2.

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Re: Afghanistan

Post by BaronVerde » Tue, 14. Sep 21, 18:58

There's a third independent report questioning the military version:
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/09/14/asia ... index.html
I personally am deeply convinced that as long as there is such rhetoric "to hunt people down and make them pay", there can hardly be peace. Somebody must put the gun back into the holster, verbally and quite literally.


Right in that area habitable space is shrinking due to climate change, those people are running into real problems and war mongering does not ease their lifes. For all good that the protective forces have done in the past, it has ended abruptly and there's danger of humanitarian catastrophe now.

I may be wrong and happy to discuss without getting personal. Has the OP abandoned the thread ?

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felter
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Re: Afghanistan

Post by felter » Wed, 15. Sep 21, 03:20

There is supposed to be a lot of in house fighting amongst the Taliban, there are even reports that their current leader has died recently. It seems to be that a lot of them are not happy with who is in their new Government, while a lot of them are not happy because that they are not in the new Government, with both sides saying we beat the Americans. Also, a lot of the ones who are in the Government are on international terrorist wanted lists, and are wanted in America for terror related crimes. What the Americans should do, is when the Taliban government do meet up, they should drop a few missiles down their throats and take them all out in one single action, solve a lot of problems for a lot of people.
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Re: Afghanistan

Post by pjknibbs » Wed, 15. Sep 21, 07:46

felter wrote:
Wed, 15. Sep 21, 03:20
What the Americans should do, is when the Taliban government do meet up, they should drop a few missiles down their throats and take them all out in one single action, solve a lot of problems for a lot of people.
Yeah, because there are no possible negative consequences to launching a surprise attack on the official government of a country you're not at war with. Nosirree, can't see anything going wrong with that at all. :roll:

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felter
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Re: Afghanistan

Post by felter » Thu, 16. Sep 21, 00:04

pjknibbs wrote:
Wed, 15. Sep 21, 07:46
felter wrote:
Wed, 15. Sep 21, 03:20
What the Americans should do, is when the Taliban government do meet up, they should drop a few missiles down their throats and take them all out in one single action, solve a lot of problems for a lot of people.
Yeah, because there are no possible negative consequences to launching a surprise attack on the official government of a country you're not at war with. Nosirree, can't see anything going wrong with that at all. :roll:
When did anyone actually recognize the Taliban or any of the outlaw terrorists that consist of that so-called Government as an official Government, not just that no one has ever said they were at war with them or even for the matter that no one has ever said they weren't. Also, it is done all the time by Governments, including both America and the UK when the target is known Terrorists, so why is it any different this time. Then you also have to ask what will the consequences be by not doing it, if you leave terrorists to do whatever they want, eventually it will lead to another 911.
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Re: Afghanistan

Post by pjknibbs » Thu, 16. Sep 21, 06:48

You do realise that removing the existing power structure without any clear idea of what to replace it with is exactly what caused the current mess in the first place? You want to spend another 20 years in Afghanistan and lose another 2000+ US troops? Because doing what you just said is exactly how that happens.

BaronVerde
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Re: Afghanistan

Post by BaronVerde » Thu, 16. Sep 21, 08:05

pjknibbs wrote:
Thu, 16. Sep 21, 06:48
You do realise that removing the existing power structure without any clear idea of what to replace it with is exactly what caused the current mess in the first place?
This is my opinion, too.

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Vertigo 7
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Re: Afghanistan

Post by Vertigo 7 » Fri, 17. Sep 21, 22:45

General McKenzie, of US Cent Comm, held a press conference from the WH a short while ago, following the results of an investigation he launched shortly after the drone strike was ordered and has admitted the drone strike was a mistake and that civilians were the only ones killed in it. So there you have it.

Of course, there's much more to it than that. The strike wasn't launched as a cover, as has been expressed was the intent. The targeted vehicle did pickup passengers from a compound verified to be associated with ISIS and the intel gave rise to believing there was a credible and immediate threat to the airport, and that the targeted vehicle was likely the one that would have transported explosives and attackers. I can certainly understand why the strike occurred.

It's unfortunate that circumstances lead to where they did. I'm sorry for the families that lost their loved ones.
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clakclak
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Re: Afghanistan

Post by clakclak » Sat, 18. Sep 21, 08:48

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Fri, 17. Sep 21, 22:45
[...]I can certainly understand why the strike occurred.

It's unfortunate that circumstances lead to where they did. I'm sorry for the families that lost their loved ones.
I do not agree with this assessment of the situation. The Biden administration said it wanted to take revenge for the Americans killed in the Airport attack, thus I assume they put pressure on the military to find a good target. The military then hastily decided to bomb what may with a lot of luck be a military target and celebrate the, like you put it in an earlier comment "160 saved lives", only that no lives were saved as the targets were simply normal people going about their day.

The worst part is: If it had not been for Journalists investigating the strike and throwing up doubts that the official version was wrong, I am 100% sure this would all have been swept under the rug and people would have trusted the US military completely. Hell you Vertigo were 100% convinced that this was an attack against terrorists even after reports came out that gave a very reasonable different angle. A bit more distrust towards those in power might be healthy.

The US government with access to the information of multiple well funded security agencies learned about who the victims were after the New Yorks Times? Come on. They knew before the Times published its report that they had bombed innocents.

At the end of the day this drone strike is a good summary for the entire war. A hastily executed affair, suffering from a lack of information and a stunning disregard for the value of a human life, by all participating parties (edit, and yes ALL parties does include ESPECIALLY the Taliban and ISIS as they have shown an unbelievable willingness to kill civilians).
Last edited by clakclak on Sat, 18. Sep 21, 10:43, edited 2 times in total.

BaronVerde
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Re: Afghanistan

Post by BaronVerde » Sat, 18. Sep 21, 10:38

Thabk you, @Vertigo7 for informing us, and @clakclak for saying what much of the world thinks about this case.

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matthewfarmery
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Re: Afghanistan

Post by matthewfarmery » Sat, 18. Sep 21, 13:22

Like I said in my previous post, I was very less inclined to believe the US military regarding the target. The US are very well known for lashing out and getting things wrong. From the Gulf war, (probably earlier) to this. American just wanted revenge. I also think if there wasn't much pressure from the NY times, then this would have been brushed under the carpet, and we would only have the US military word that it was a hostile target.

RIP for those victims, but its little wonder that the country in general just wanted to see the US gone. As the whole war was nothing short of a mistake, and poorly thought out from the beginning.
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Vertigo 7
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Re: Afghanistan

Post by Vertigo 7 » Sat, 18. Sep 21, 14:49

Just because the US gets things wrong on occasion, that hardly means they get things wrong all the time or even most of the time. Events like these are the exception, not the rule and it's incredibly disingenuous to suggest otherwise.
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Re: Afghanistan

Post by BaronVerde » Sat, 18. Sep 21, 15:15

Killing and maiming innocent people with drones happen frequently, though exact numbers are hard if not impossible to get. They vary between 0.2% and 90%, so nothing is really known for sure, not even by those who carry them out. And this one here was a total failure. By many, drone strikes with civilian casualties are regarded as war crimes. These strikes also traumatise the civilian population in the countries where they are carried out, for instance in Lybia, Syria, Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc. Which is a tolerated result. The Afghan civilian governmant under Hamid Karzai demanded the US stop the strikes, but they wouldn't listen, making the strikes an unsanctioned aggression.

As a counter example, when Europe ended the wars and ethnic cleanings in the balkans many of the responsibles were brought to justice before the court in Den Haag. Now people, including muslims, can live in peace there.

Opinion:
This is how civilized people should behave. It would be a good sign to the civilized world if the US would join the treaty of the International Criminal Court, and stop intimidating, prosecuting and harrassing their lawyers. Clearing past war crimes and preventing future ones could certainly help with letting people live in peace, not only but also in Afghanistan.

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