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Mightysword
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Re: Trump

Post by Mightysword » Fri, 17. Jan 20, 22:40

Chips wrote:
Fri, 17. Jan 20, 21:56
1) Voting for someone doesn't make you a supporter of them. Stay with me a minute, you'll see what i mean...
I actually had said the same thing many times myself in this thread in the last few years. Good luck having ' some members of the left' believe that though, trust me I tried. In fact, even when making it clears many time that I'm not supporting Trump, not voting for him, and criticize him (when warranted), just the fact I refuse to get on the Trump basing bandwagon that had been accused of being a Trump enabler and support, both directly and indirectly in this thread. ;)

Observe wrote:
Fri, 17. Jan 20, 22:02
Besides, it's not really about Trump, as much as it is about what many people see in him. They see someone who is building a wall against the liberalization of America. The list of things they are not happy with how things have been heading, is a very long list. They couldn't care less whether their standard barer is a pompous egomaniac or the next Saint. To them, liberals spell anathema to everything holy and decent about American life.
This is very true, and exactly part of the message I'm trying to say. I don't know about the UK, but from the look of it it's more even there in term of public pressure for both side. If anything the US's liberal has been extremely successful at - and that they had managed to create a basically one-sided public narrative, a political correctness system that is openly hostile to anyone that oppose them. But I think that also creates an achilles heel for them. I had also discussed about the available of platforms and when people perceived they don't have one, it's not hard to convince themselves an alliance of convenience is necessary, even with a devil to fight even a greater evil. Now, the question what people perceive as the "greater evil".

An example for me personally is this: the Kevanaugh's hearing. Even now, this is still the single most damaging instance for Democrat/Liberal for someone with my standard. Beyond any politic, social equality, question of character ...etc... to me specifically the principal "innocent until proven guilty" is an overriding priority above all else, including all those mishap Trump got slapped on in an almost daily basic. When and if I perceive a political party or individual seem to threaten this one particular value, it may trigger a reaction from me to prevent its violation even if it means signing a deal with the devil.

And I know I'm not the only one with this mindset, people who carry prejudice or conditioned to a specific mindset tend to focus on one event at a time, and moving one from another. But a lot of us look at the undercurrent and trend over long period.
Last edited by Mightysword on Fri, 17. Jan 20, 23:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Trump

Post by Mightysword » Fri, 17. Jan 20, 23:43

Alan Phipps wrote:
Fri, 17. Jan 20, 22:08
@ Mightysword: That's a pretty asute analysis that I think can be applied to some extent to almost any emotive or divisive debate or discussion. This is not something restricted to Trump and his deeds or intents, in my opinion.
Most certainly, others examples can be like #metoo, #blacklifematter ...etc.... While agreeing with those movements are something can be openly and safely discussed anywhere, internet or IRL. To talk about the 'back side' of those movements though, is not something most people will find the courage and comfort to do outside of the internet. :wink:

Alan Phipps wrote:
Fri, 17. Jan 20, 22:08
Internet anonymity does indeed enourage some to be overly outspoken, belligerent or even abusive at times, but you should also grant that the bulk of the readership probably has the intellect to recognise those loud voices for what they are and not be terribly swayed by volume, insults and hyperbole when held against sensible cold logic and analysis.
While that is true, it still constitute a false sense of reality though. Here are examples:

- Most people on reddit are liberal and from the left: this is actually not true, what actually happens they simply dominated and bullied everyone else from the "surface".
- This forum (egosoft) is somehow better than others in keeping level head political discussion. Not quite, depending on what you mean.

I don't believe a places like reddit lack the intellectual people to have proper discussion, or that the posters on this forum (myself included) is somehow better then our internet peers in other places. The difference is simply due to the moderators. Political correct behavior are endorsed and tolerated even when it crosses the line, this result in right leaning participants going underground while the neutral simply disengage because we don't want to simply join the echo chambers. As comparing to here, all views are given the right to speak as long as we obey the same etiquette. In fact, I think it's noticeably that extremist view crossing the line more often on here from the left than from the right, but here you can expect the moderators to step in and reel it in even if they share the same ideology as opposed to ignore and tolerate such behavior.

I intended to keep this thought until the next time one of those "forum appreciation" comments pop up, which appears every-once in a while in this thread, but this is a good opportunity to let it out. Also to fellow posters in this thread, I know that each time those 'appreciation' posts pop up people from all sides are all in agreement that this is one of those rare places on the net to have thoughtful and (mostly) safe political discussion. I would ask you to move beyond the simple lip service and look deeper at why it is the case. While the moderators are the catalyst for the 'reason', the reason itself is environment such as this can only be possible if all different view - no matter how unpopular- are given equal platforms to stand on.

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Re: Trump

Post by fiksal » Sat, 18. Jan 20, 00:19

Mightysword wrote:
Fri, 17. Jan 20, 21:26
Not quoting anyone in particular but something related to what's been discussing: do you notice that outside of the internet, you don't see a lot of people willing to engage in political discussion? May I ask that how many of you here engage in political argument in the same insensitivity you dedicate to this very thread almost daily or weekly? And why is that? I think the short and simple answer because the safety of anonymity the internet offer, but the long answer is 'what does that implies'?
I can mostly speak to myself, as I attempt to approach the discussion the same way I do in real life as I do here. With whatever appropriate things the discussion requires.

If I dont, then I am being inconsistent or forgetful, and that's not a good thing, which I'd need to address.


Mightysword wrote:
Fri, 17. Jan 20, 21:26
- Group A is the only group that can safely express their opinion in most public places and institutions without facing prejudice persecution, in fact they have the perfect counters if anyone else dare to rebutt them.
That's inaccurate. I've witnessed myself a great number of vocal Trump supporters who are (vocally) proud of everything Trump has done. Who call for more walls, more children in camps, less protections for pre-existing conditions, and on and on. I witnessed one who called for gunning down refuges at the border. [1]

They seem to be quite safe to express those opinions on main stream TV and news as well.

Some examples hit closer to home for me, as my family is not only (vocally) proud of Trump's accomplishments, but also (vocally) proud of Putin's and the body count that he leaves.


[1] Though eventually(!) he did lose his job for it at the end.

Mightysword wrote:
Fri, 17. Jan 20, 21:26
Group C
I have a self proclaimed conservative friend, whose words I keep remembering. He said, there are no conservatives to the right of him. He called them something else.

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Re: Trump

Post by Mightysword » Sat, 18. Jan 20, 00:53

fiksal wrote:
Sat, 18. Jan 20, 00:19
That's inaccurate.
Not sure what inaccurate here while your post largely show exactly what I said?
They seem to be quite safe to express those opinions on main stream TV and news as well.
Of course they are safe if that is their job. If you are a conservative TV commenters then you are even paid to say it. I'm not talking about those who well-insulated within their circle (ala Steve Bannon), I'm talking about your average Joe working at average public companies and institutions. Hell, I'm pretty sure you are aware even if a kid wears a MAGA hat to school that can already create drama.
[1] Though eventually(!) he did lose his job for it at the end.
And ... that's why most people don't do it? Although you seem to be describing a nut case rather than an average conservative here. Beside I said most people don't do it so they don't get into trouble or put their lifehood at stake, you just provided an example to illustrate exactly that while claiming it's in-accurate :?
I have a self proclaimed conservative friend, whose words I keep remembering. He said, there are no conservatives to the right of him. He called them something else.
Again, sound like a nut case. And another thing: friend. I'm not talking about closed circle of friends and family. I had got closed enough to some people to know their true alignment, despite what they let on in public. And that's my point - publicly. You can try to experiment it yourself: wear a Clinton/Obama hat and walk around, like to your school and workplace and you will most likely receive no reaction. I know a lot of people don't like and disagree with Bernie Sander, but they won't react if you wear his shirt or hat. But, try to do it with a MAGA hat and ... see what happen for yourself. ;)

I'll just wrap this point up by pointing out a very clear example: why were most people "surprised" at Trump winning 2016? It's because "on the surface" it seemed there aren't that many people would vote for him. Otherwise it wouldn't a surprise isn't it. :P That's simply a clear cut empirical evidence that I feel override any personal anecdotal incident or individual perception.

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Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Sat, 18. Jan 20, 02:10

Observe wrote:
Fri, 17. Jan 20, 22:02
Vertigo 7 wrote:
Fri, 17. Jan 20, 15:32
I think you missed the point. I was specifically referring to his lies about number of supporters. Not the ramifications of his aversion to facts and truth.
Just because Trump lies about his number of supporters, doesn't mean it isn't the truth. Trump lies pathologically, but sometimes his lies happens to be true.

Besides, it's not really about Trump, as much as it is about what many people see in him. They see someone who is building a wall against the liberalization of America. The list of things they are not happy with how things have been heading, is a very long list. They couldn't care less whether their standard barer is a pompous egomaniac or the next Saint. To them, liberals spell anathema to everything holy and decent about American life.

There are many of them. I wager that there are more supporting Trump now, than the first time around.
I highly doubt that. You're forgetting that:

A) Trump did not win the popular vote by a not insignificant amount. You telling me that there are suddenly 3 million + more people willing to tolerate racism, sexism, and criminality out of the white house suddenly? I think you'll find a huge shift in the other direction. People want our country to be respected around the world. That sure as hell isn't happening with Trump at the helm. He's made a mockery of the presidency and that matters to a lot of people.

B) 2016 had the lowest voter turnout in the last 20 years. 2 reasons for this... people didn't want to vote for either Hillary or Trump. And the sense among some that their vote doesn't count. I'm quite sure that trend will reverse itself this time around. Voter turnout majorly spiked for the midterm and gubernatorial races.

C) Look at the huge amount of democratic election wins, even in deep red states. I mean, come on, Alabama, of ALL of them, elected a democrat senator over a mini-me version of Trump. Virginia flipped its entire state legislative branch to democrats. On and on. This trend points to a huge loss for Trump and his cult this November.

Again, I can't predict the future, but this country has more sensible people than not and we haven't seen a president cause this much turmoil since Nixon. People don't want our government swamped in drama.
"If we had confidence the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so. We did not, however, make a determination as to whether the president did commit a crime." - Robert Muller, May 29, 2019

"Complete and total exoneration" - Donald Trump, March 24, 2019

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Re: Trump

Post by fiksal » Sat, 18. Jan 20, 02:16

Mightysword wrote:
Sat, 18. Jan 20, 00:53
fiksal wrote:
Sat, 18. Jan 20, 00:19
That's inaccurate.
Not sure what inaccurate here while your post largely show exactly what I said?

I think it's inaccurate that "group A" is "the only group that can safely express their opinion in most public places and institutions without facing prejudice persecution".

Mightysword wrote:
Sat, 18. Jan 20, 00:53
Of course they are safe if that is their job. If you are a conservative TV commenters then you are even paid to say it. I'm not talking about those who well-insulated within their circle (ala Steve Bannon), I'm talking about your average Joe working at average public companies and institutions. Hell, I'm pretty sure you are aware even if a kid wears a MAGA hat to school that can already create drama.
So are we talking about personal experience then at all?

It hasnt been my experience. People on the street, at bars, and friends of friends of friends have no issues telling they are Trump people.

Mightysword wrote:
Sat, 18. Jan 20, 00:53
[1] Though eventually(!) he did lose his job for it at the end.
And ... that's why most people don't do it? Although you seem to be describing a nut case rather than an average conservative here.
In that specific case I indeed described a nut case.
Mightysword wrote:
Sat, 18. Jan 20, 00:53
Beside I said most people don't do it so they don't get into trouble or put their lifehood at stake, you just provided an example to illustrate exactly that while claiming it's in-accurate :?
In trouble with who exactly?

If you live in a south of US, you'll be in trouble and lose your job, get kicked out of a bar or just get dirty looks, if you are : atheist, pro life, gay or pro lgbt, Obama or Clinton voter. Perhaps you are looking into an issue that is locale specific.
As I think I mentioned before, living in the south, you get a bit different experience.
Mightysword wrote:
Sat, 18. Jan 20, 00:53
I have a self proclaimed conservative friend, whose words I keep remembering. He said, there are no conservatives to the right of him. He called them something else.
Again, sound like a nut case. And another thing: friend.
Hehe, I dont think so. He has made a long and clear argument why he thinks that (and before you ask, I can probably find it with his permission). While I dont know specifically what describes a conservative nowadays (even though he told me and I had forgotten), I find his opinions quite thought provoking.
Mightysword wrote:
Sat, 18. Jan 20, 00:53
You can try to experiment it yourself: wear a Clinton/Obama hat and walk around, like to your school and workplace and you will most likely receive no reaction.
In south of US, not a chance I'd do that.
Mightysword wrote:
Sat, 18. Jan 20, 00:53
I know a lot of people don't like and disagree with Bernie Sander, but they won't react if you wear his shirt or hat. But, try to do it with a MAGA hat and ... see what happen for yourself. ;)
In that same south I refer to, we have confederate flag carriers that get together, with rifles and MAGA hats, getting together in mass, to show that the South didnt lose the war.

If you wear a MAGA hat there, people will buy you a beer.

Unfortunately I'd not try wearing MAGA hat anywhere either, out of self respect.

Mightysword wrote:
Sat, 18. Jan 20, 00:53
I'll just wrap this point up by pointing out a very clear example: why were most people "surprised" at Trump winning 2016? It's because "on the surface" it seemed there aren't that many people would vote for him. Otherwise it wouldn't a surprise isn't it. :P That's simply a clear cut empirical evidence that I feel override any personal anecdotal incident or individual perception.
I didnt realize we are talking about "why Trump won" again. We are in the year 2020, is that relevant still?

Ah now if anecdotal / personal experience doesnt count, and rightfully as it's not great evidence, then I am calling shenanigans on your entire several posts.
No-one had done statistical analyses which political symbols you cant wear in public in which parts of US. You seem to be falling into the same trap that you yourself described.

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Re: Trump

Post by RegisterMe » Sat, 18. Jan 20, 03:09

Mightysword wrote:
Fri, 17. Jan 20, 21:26
Not quoting anyone in particular but something related to what's been discussing: do you notice that outside of the internet, you don't see a lot of people willing to engage in political discussion? May I ask that how many of you here engage in political argument in the same insensitivity you dedicate to this very thread almost daily or weekly? And why is that? I think the short and simple answer because the safety of anonymity the internet offer, but the long answer is 'what does that implies'?
I'd think I'd argue that survivor bias (even if only in terms of the people who contribute are the people who are interested ) and good moderation plays a very large part.

Personally I engage in debate, of all kinds, with many people on a regular basis. Do I do it (political discussion) with "the same insensitivity"? Now that's a good question.

And the answer is yes.

If, say, Masterbagger and me get in a political disagreement here, on Egosoft, I know, roughly, how far I can go with him in argument without the argument itself becoming a problem. Similarly I go round to an old lady neighbour of mine almost every day, have a coffee with her, talk about stuff, and do some shopping for her. She's very religious. I am very not religious. It doesn't stop us being friends, or caring for one another, or allowing each other the space to disagree. In spite of the fact that some of her beliefs are completely antithetical to my own.

I've known her for years. I've "known" Masterbagger for years.

Would I be quite so robust in my discussions with somebody I didn't "know" so well? No, I wouldn't be (unless they said something flagrantly stupid, ignorant or... I was going to say evil but I will settle for.... nasty).

I think your argument about internet anonymity has a great deal of merit. But I am not sure it works here, on Egosoft's forum. Many of us old-timers have years of contributions to this place, years of personality, position and perspective on display. They go a very long way in terms of defining who "we" are.

I value that. It informs me. It educates me. And I enjoy it. Even when I disagree with whatever somebody may have said.
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Re: Trump

Post by Masterbagger » Sat, 18. Jan 20, 03:10

Mightysword wrote:
Sat, 18. Jan 20, 00:53


I'll just wrap this point up by pointing out a very clear example: why were most people "surprised" at Trump winning 2016? It's because "on the surface" it seemed there aren't that many people would vote for him. Otherwise it wouldn't a surprise isn't it. :P That's simply a clear cut empirical evidence that I feel override any personal anecdotal incident or individual perception.
2016 was the first election I remember that involved actual open hostility and intolerance. I have never been in a situation before when a group of people hated me personally for how I voted. I voted for President Bush. No one cared back then. They didn't like the man I elected but it didn't get extended to me. I reciprocated that when Obama won. I know the presidency flips between parties. I had no reason to take it personally when it happened.

I think a lot of people saw that hostility happening and didn't want to get publicly persecuted for not following the groupthink of the left. I think enough people were so disillusioned with the actions of both parties over the last few years that they publicly did not speak their private views when it would result in the hassle of intolerant jerks attacking them. No one knows how you vote once you enter that booth. I think they stayed silent and then voted their minds. I think that made the Trump victory that much more painful for those who lost. I think the state of the left in America is alienating otherwise indifferent people and making them not speak their minds openly.
Who made that man a gunner?

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Re: Trump

Post by Mightysword » Sat, 18. Jan 20, 03:25

@Fiskal: you try to be very technical into specific cases for your argument. You're basically taking what I said and try to shoehorn into specific-exceptional instants.

- You keep bringing up examples from insulated environment, that's not what I'm talking about. Going to a church with a confederate flag? Of course such opinion will be safe there. Going to a local pup with liked mind? Of course there is no risk. The danger here isn't to one life or well being (although in some case it has been), but to one lifehood and characters. Working for a local shop owned by confederate-owner? No problem. But working for a publicly traded companies? Better be careful. Even if your immediate boss doesn't care, it would only take an overzelous co-worker to upload a photo to social media to trigger some soft of "internet outrage". At the very least, the drama often followed is not what the PR department want to deal with. This is not simply my own observation, over the years this trends have been reported widely by media on BOTH side of the spectrum. The left use it to demonstrate their (false) sense of majority, while the right use it as a rally symbol of oppression. (The very thing observe mentioned in his post that I followed up). This is not about you or me, this is about "reality". You are free to take its meaning however you wish, but you can't deny its existence when it's already acknowledge by all sides of the argument.

- For some reason you seem to take this up as a competition, I didn't intend it to be. There is nothing wrong to use personal experience as part of the argument, like you said I use it plenty. But the question is whether one experience is inline with reality, or being used to construct a false sense of it. In another word, parity is important.

- And no, I certainly wasn't talking about "HOW" Trump win, no idea how you see it that way. The reason I did not specifically quote anyone in my first post because I simply weave in the particular topic that people were talking about in the last page (something you seem to lost sight of after zeroing in on me). It's not a competition, nor a pro or for argument, rather it's a reminder and warning that people should NOT get too comfortable about Trump's chance simply based on the perception how unpopular he is (i.e the argument how big his supporter base is and whether he's losing or even gaining). I didn't remind you of why Trump win, I am reminding you why his win was considered a "surprise". :sceptic:

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Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Sat, 18. Jan 20, 04:18

Mightysword wrote:
Sat, 18. Jan 20, 03:25
The left use it to demonstrate their (false) sense of majority, while the right use it as a rally symbol of oppression.
Are you seriously going to sit here and portray the right as victims of oppression when they've gone out of their way to demonize anyone who isn't straight, white, and christian?

Talk about someone needing a dose of reality...

You know, it's bad enough that the dude that whines about being called out for being a racist is allowed to make racist posts on this forum and not get sanctioned for it. But don't pretend that they're victims because people aren't willing to put up with that kind of hatred. You know as well as I do that there has been a marked uptake of white supremacy activities since Trump was elected, including domestic terrorism. These "people" deserve no compassion, no quarter, no forgiveness.
"If we had confidence the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so. We did not, however, make a determination as to whether the president did commit a crime." - Robert Muller, May 29, 2019

"Complete and total exoneration" - Donald Trump, March 24, 2019

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Re: Trump

Post by Mightysword » Sat, 18. Jan 20, 04:50

I value that. It informs me. It educates me. And I enjoy it. Even when I disagree with whatever somebody may have said.
And it will be great if everyone can follow that etiquette the way you do, but well, as you can clearly see above, that's not the case. ;)
RegisterMe wrote:
Sat, 18. Jan 20, 03:09
I think your argument about internet anonymity has a great deal of merit. But I am not sure it works here, on Egosoft's forum. Many of us old-timers have years of contributions to this place, years of personality, position and perspective on display. They go a very long way in terms of defining who "we" are.
The thing is that "old timers" is a privilege that doesn't exist in other places, and even on here it's still a privilege that is only available to perharp more than a handful of us. As mentioned before I'm someone who share very little common with Masterbarger, I can still respect him as a "well-behave" forum posters. Unlike you him being here long doesn't matter to me, but I can't really remember when was the last time he received a warning from a moderator despite all the attack he often gets. On the other hands, the few people who regularly attacked him and called himself all sort of nasty while parade themselves with a laundry list of highly regards moral characters are the one repeatedly receive infraction and warning for crossing the line.

Edit: and here is a small question for you - that privilege can only came after a long time being here, time that you had decided "worthwhile" to be here. My point here is that if this forum is managed in the same manner of other places, you may not have the opportunity to even develop the very bonds you just mentioned. :)

And like I said that's what make a difference on this forum comparing to other places on the internet. I exists here as the same person I am on reddit, yet you will never see me make these kind of posts on reddit simply because it's not the environment for it. And while I know some people may find my often overly long-winded posting style annoying, I still consider it's worth while to do it here. The point I was trying to make here is that the things that makes this forum "good" also exist in other place, and what makes other forums "bad" also exists here. We see the difference simply due to how well this forum is moderated. It's not just about people like Masterbarger and those who in direct confrontation with him, but I believe in only by allowing this diversity that people like you can find merits that I will requote:
I value that. It informs me. It educates me. And I enjoy it. Even when I disagree with whatever somebody may have said.
:thumb_up:

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Re: Trump

Post by Masterbagger » Sat, 18. Jan 20, 04:56

RegisterMe wrote:
Sat, 18. Jan 20, 03:09
Mightysword wrote:
Fri, 17. Jan 20, 21:26
Not quoting anyone in particular but something related to what's been discussing: do you notice that outside of the internet, you don't see a lot of people willing to engage in political discussion? May I ask that how many of you here engage in political argument in the same insensitivity you dedicate to this very thread almost daily or weekly? And why is that? I think the short and simple answer because the safety of anonymity the internet offer, but the long answer is 'what does that implies'?
I'd think I'd argue that survivor bias (even if only in terms of the people who contribute are the people who are interested ) and good moderation plays a very large part.

Personally I engage in debate, of all kinds, with many people on a regular basis. Do I do it (political discussion) with "the same insensitivity"? Now that's a good question.

And the answer is yes.

If, say, Masterbagger and me get in a political disagreement here, on Egosoft, I know, roughly, how far I can go with him in argument without the argument itself becoming a problem. Similarly I go round to an old lady neighbour of mine almost every day, have a coffee with her, talk about stuff, and do some shopping for her. She's very religious. I am very not religious. It doesn't stop us being friends, or caring for one another, or allowing each other the space to disagree. In spite of the fact that some of her beliefs are completely antithetical to my own.

I've known her for years. I've "known" Masterbagger for years.

Would I be quite so robust in my discussions with somebody I didn't "know" so well? No, I wouldn't be (unless they said something flagrantly stupid, ignorant or... I was going to say evil but I will settle for.... nasty).

I think your argument about internet anonymity has a great deal of merit. But I am not sure it works here, on Egosoft's forum. Many of us old-timers have years of contributions to this place, years of personality, position and perspective on display. They go a very long way in terms of defining who "we" are.

I value that. It informs me. It educates me. And I enjoy it. Even when I disagree with whatever somebody may have said.
I acknowledge that we have the ability to mutually disagree. We can get away with a lot of personal poking when we've been doing this for so many years when we understand that for most of us there isn't malice behind it or the targeted party finds that malice simply amusing. Mighty has a really good point though and I am glad he referenced reddit. You can't go to the politics reddit and do anything but parrot liberal talking points. There is no discussion there. It is an echo chamber. It really is special that we have a years long continuous discussion of politics. There is a lot of worth in clicking back to page 1 and refreshing what the discussion was like back then. You in particular own the second post of this thread and you nailed why Trump was on his way to a victory. We went a long time before we started involving emotionally fueled confrontation. That is way better than most places on the internet.
Mightysword wrote:
Sat, 18. Jan 20, 04:50

The thing is that "old timers" is a privilege that doesn't exist in other places, and even on here it's still a privilege that is only available to perharp more than a handful of us. As mentioned before I'm someone who share very little common with Masterbarger, I can still respect him as a "well-behave" forum posters. Unlike you him being here long doesn't matter to me, but I can't really remember when was the last time he received a warning from a moderator despite all the attack he often gets. On the other hands, the few people who regularly attacked him and called himself all sort of nasty while parade themselves with a laundry list of highly regards moral characters are the one repeatedly receive infraction and warning for crossing the line.

Edit: and here is a small question for you - that privilege can only came after a long time being here, time that you had decided "worthwhile" to be here. My point here is that if this forum is managed in the same manner of other places, you may not have the opportunity to even develop the very bonds you just mentioned. :)

And like I said that's what make a difference on this forum comparing to other places on the internet. I exists here as the same person I am on reddit, yet you will never see me make these kind of posts on reddit simply because it's not the environment for it. And while I know some people may find my often overly long-winded posting style annoying, I still consider it's worth while to do it here. The point I was trying to make here is that the things that makes this forum "good" also exist in other place, and what makes other forums "bad" also exists here. We see the difference simply due to how well this forum is moderated. It's not just about people like Masterbarger and those who in direct confrontation with him, but I believe in only by allowing this diversity that people like you can find merits that I will requote:
I wanted to reply to you directly to say that I agree with the gist of what you are saying. I don't mind confrontation and I don't take disagreement personally. I didn't want to end up being the only majority right wing viewpoint on this forum. I'm not a perfect representative of that side even if I support the main views there concerning upholding individual liberty. I think you are in a similar situation where you are not holding yourself to a platform that falls completely under either party. I've seen you get the same sort of flak I have for doing that from the same sources. But as you say this isn't reddit and you can say what you think. I don't want you to stop.
Who made that man a gunner?

Vertigo 7
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Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Sat, 18. Jan 20, 07:22

Mightysword wrote:
Sat, 18. Jan 20, 04:50
It's not just about people like Masterbarger and those who in direct confrontation with him, but I believe in only by allowing this diversity that people like you can find merits that I will requote:
I value that. It informs me. It educates me. And I enjoy it. Even when I disagree with whatever somebody may have said.
Diversity doesn't mean tolerating or accepting bigotry and racism. Why is that such a difficult concept to grasp? :gruebel:

Here's the thing... the question that's been avoided by the cultists. Why this guy? There's no other republican that can be president without the racism and sexual misconduct? There's no republican that can actually embody the morals the GOP was supposed to represent? There's no republican that can condemn David Duke, Steve King, Roy Moore and the like? There's no republican that can manage to live without diddling kids or being associated with those that do? There's no republican that's unwilling to sell out to Russia?

The laundry list of things that make Trump a despicable human being, not just a despicable president, grows by the day, but these guys cheer him on. Not a peep of condemnation against him for all the shit he does. But a democrat president lied about having an affair? Oh no... we're gonna bring that up. The last president was black? We're gonna bring that up and refer to him as "The Kenyan". Ban the Muslims! Put Mexican children in cages! We'll tell people it's cuz we want security, but I'm not gonna pay attention to the amount of murders American citizens commit on other Americans. No... blame the foreigners for all of our problems! Why? Cuz Trump said so and it makes me feel good!

I'll repeat, for the record. I voted for Bush. At the time, I felt he was going to help this country move forward. I also voted for Obama. I did not vote for Hillary or Trump. I saw nothing but a train wreck out of either one of them and damned if I wasn't right. Point is, I don't care who is republican or who is a democrat. But I do want a president who will take their oath of office seriously and obey the constitution, at a minimum. Preferably, one who doesn't throw a temper tantrum when they're called out for being wrong; and they call liberals snowflakes... lol
"If we had confidence the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so. We did not, however, make a determination as to whether the president did commit a crime." - Robert Muller, May 29, 2019

"Complete and total exoneration" - Donald Trump, March 24, 2019

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Observe
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Re: Trump

Post by Observe » Sat, 18. Jan 20, 07:37

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Sat, 18. Jan 20, 07:22
Diversity doesn't mean tolerating or accepting bigotry and racism. Why is that such a difficult concept to grasp?
Sounds simple enough I agree...until you start defining bigotry, or racism. One man's bigotry is another man's sense of rightness. For example, a conservative thinker might not agree with the ethics of transgender procedures that didn't exist until modern surgeries and medical hormones etc. Such a person may not agree with transgenders having access to the bathroom of their choice. Don't heterosexuals get a say? Does this make that person a bigot? Should they be derided and have stones thrown at them? Another example is women's right to abortion. A conservative person may say that the man should also have a say in the matter, or that abortion is a sin. Does this mean that person is against equality for women and should be labeled as a dinosaur, or a crackpot?

The list of examples goes on, where issues appear clear, but opposite views exist. We have to find a way to navigate changing times and attitudes, without casting each other aside as scum, merely because we disagree.

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fiksal
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Re: Trump

Post by fiksal » Sat, 18. Jan 20, 08:55

Mightysword wrote:
Sat, 18. Jan 20, 03:25
This is not simply my own observation, over the years this trends have been reported widely by media on BOTH side of the spectrum. The left use it to demonstrate their (false) sense of majority, while the right use it as a rally symbol of oppression.
Does it mean you imply that global world is by in large "leftist"? Or do we just mean US?

Then if we are talking symbology (MAGA hats or Obama hats), maybe next question be of the image that symbol invokes. Maybe there's a problem there.

Mightysword wrote:
Sat, 18. Jan 20, 03:25
This is not about you or me, this is about "reality". You are free to take its meaning however you wish, but you can't deny its existence when it's already acknowledge by all sides of the argument.
The examples are still too broad for my liking. I see the incidents isolated and grouped by people and places.

Mightysword wrote:
Sat, 18. Jan 20, 03:25
- For some reason you seem to take this up as a competition, I didn't intend it to be. There is nothing wrong to use personal experience as part of the argument, like you said I use it plenty. But the question is whether one experience is inline with reality, or being used to construct a false sense of it. In another word, parity is important.
Reality is a big place. I've lived in several countries where those are different.

Mightysword wrote:
Sat, 18. Jan 20, 03:25
I didn't remind you of why Trump win, I am reminding you why his win was considered a "surprise". :sceptic:
We have already discussed it I think. I remember.

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