For those appalled by US politics, our UK politics isn't anything to be proud of

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Re: For those appalled by US politics, our UK politics isn't anything to be proud of

Post by CBJ » Wed, 14. Nov 18, 16:56

Antilogic wrote:
Sat, 10. Nov 18, 23:03
Though people mostly attempt to bribe me with Jaffa cakes...
You can't just leave it like that! The real question is, does it work?

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Re: For those appalled by US politics, our UK politics isn't anything to be proud of

Post by Alan Phipps » Wed, 14. Nov 18, 17:30

Note that Antilogic did not say how many pallets or even lorryloads of Jaffa cakes were involved.
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Re: For those appalled by US politics, our UK politics isn't anything to be proud of

Post by BugMeister » Wed, 14. Nov 18, 23:19

yeah right:
https://www.indy100.com/article/brexit- ... ts-7399226
- rigging the vote..

the economic future of the UK..
"will of the people"..??
- what a load of rubbish..!!
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Re: For those appalled by US politics, our UK politics isn't anything to be proud of

Post by Alan Phipps » Wed, 14. Nov 18, 23:34

@ Bug: So what's your point?

More eligible people in the UK who voted said Exit than Stay. That's how democracy works over here. There's no cause for any rigging conspiracy or technical dispute over that.

There is some disappointment, disillusionment and regret in some quarters now maybe. I know that an element wish that they had looked into it more and/or been rather better (and more accurately) informed before they voted (or didn't), but that is pretty much down to them in many respects. Hindsight is always so much clearer!
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Re: For those appalled by US politics, our UK politics isn't anything to be proud of

Post by BugMeister » Wed, 14. Nov 18, 23:53

some of us knew it at the time - we tried to explain what was really going on..
- no-one listened..

- the future economic well-being of the UK should not be dismissed so lightly..
- to put this up for a vote (referendum) and then to deliberately confuse the electorate is a MASSIVE SCANDAL..

- ordinary people just don't understand how important these things are..
- pretty much like THATCHER'S WHOLESALE THEFT OF NATIONAL ASSETS via her so-called "share-holder's democracy" - what a load of tosh!!
- they kept spinning that BULL about "trickle-down" economics.. TOTAL TRASH..!!
- the majority are deliberately being kept stupid - just look at our outrageously lop-sided education system..
- purposely rigged to keep people uninformed..

- that's my point..
- and I'll keep on harping until people realize what is going on..
- simplifying the benefits system was supposed to be more "efficient" - total ROT..!!
- austerity was a political decision.. get that, A POLITICAL decision, made by the right-wing..
- now they expect us to cheer because (they say) austerity is over - MORE TOTAL NONSENSE!!
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Re: For those appalled by US politics, our UK politics isn't anything to be proud of

Post by Alan Phipps » Thu, 15. Nov 18, 00:18

I'm not really sure who you are railing at. The mediocrity, complacency and inaccuracy of the campaigns were equally evident for all political parties and their internal leave/stay camps. Why do you think the referendum ended up as so close run despite the relatively high level of public interest and voter turnout? There was no obviously right choice in many people's eyes.

I'm afraid that you rather blew the debate though with the capitals and the digressions into biased-view political history and suspect education conspiracy theory. Now if you had just stayed talking about cross-party political ineptitudes then you might have kept me. :D
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Re: For those appalled by US politics, our UK politics isn't anything to be proud of

Post by BugMeister » Thu, 15. Nov 18, 00:26

no one in particular - just the entire system itself..
it has drifted further and further rightwards, in favour of the entitlement of a privileged (relative) minority..
a correction is essential - both here in the UK and also in the USA - checks and balances need strengthening in both political systems..
- corporatism has become a blight on society..
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Re: For those appalled by US politics, our UK politics isn't anything to be proud of

Post by RegisterMe » Thu, 15. Nov 18, 00:36

So Bug, what's your suggested alternative (/policies)? I'm genuinely interested. I've always been a floating voater, having voted red / blue / yellow at varying times during my life, for varying reasons. That having been said I think you would (and I wouldn't disagree) consider me "right wing" economically (whereas my own self-perception would probably involve the word liberal).

I think the current set of Tories are moronically incompetent beyond belief, and yet I would still vote for them in preference to a Corbyn lead Labour party. Corbyn and McDonnell both terrify me (economically) and horrify me (in terms of their politics).

I'm left voting for those I consider to be the least shit. That's not... inspiring.....
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Re: For those appalled by US politics, our UK politics isn't anything to be proud of

Post by BugMeister » Thu, 15. Nov 18, 00:50

I'd say vote lib-dem, but you'd just laugh..
both the extreme left (ie. Corbyn's mob) and the extreme right (Farage, and the like) are hopelessly out of touch..
we need some sort of consensus - a common sense approach that keeps the more radical elements in society from dominating the discussion..
meanwhile poverty is on the increase - both in the UK and the US - the UK leaving the EU is bound to ensure that the poverty gets worse..
particularly when you take into consideration that it's what the majority don't have that keeps the wealthy in power - it's a relative thing..
corporatism ensures that the well-off will continue to benefit from the disparity in incomes (in both countries)
- checks and balances - and shifting the burden of taxation away from the poor and middle-classes and putting it squarely on the shoulders of the wealthy - as it SHOULD be..
- it is only in recent years that the system has become so skewed in favour of the wealthy - it wasn't always this way..

- the situation has not gone unnoticed:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... lip-alston
Last edited by BugMeister on Thu, 15. Nov 18, 00:53, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: For those appalled by US politics, our UK politics isn't anything to be proud of

Post by Antilogic » Thu, 15. Nov 18, 00:51

And I would vote the current Labour party in a heartbeat over the Tories...

Yet I find myself voting neither and supporting the only party going "This is a bloody dumb idea."

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Re: For those appalled by US politics, our UK politics isn't anything to be proud of

Post by BugMeister » Thu, 15. Nov 18, 00:58

SEVERELY curtailing the abuse of tax-havens would be a start..
so much of the nation's wealth is being held off-shore - WHERE IT IS OF NO USE AT ALL TO THE UK ECONOMY..
the EU are pledged to take action on this matter - just as we are about to leave..

- that is more than just coincidence..

there are dissenting voices on both sides of the divide:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ly-toynbee

- Cameron, in his blatant stupidity, did a better job than Guy Fawkes could ever have hoped for..
Last edited by BugMeister on Thu, 15. Nov 18, 01:04, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: For those appalled by US politics, our UK politics isn't anything to be proud of

Post by RegisterMe » Thu, 15. Nov 18, 01:04

Well you're over-simpliying things there Bug. For all his faults (and he has many), and for all his goverment's faults (and they were multitude), Cameron's government started the international ball rolling on cracking down on tax havens.

It's got a long way to go though, I grant you that.
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Re: For those appalled by US politics, our UK politics isn't anything to be proud of

Post by Antilogic » Thu, 15. Nov 18, 01:04

I hate the Sun, but for once I will give them kudos for this headline: https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experienc ... 41bb20.jpg

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Re: For those appalled by US politics, our UK politics isn't anything to be proud of

Post by Mightysword » Thu, 15. Nov 18, 06:29

Alan Phipps wrote:
Thu, 15. Nov 18, 00:18
Why do you think the referendum ended up as so close run despite the relatively high level of public interest and voter turnout? There was no obviously right choice in many people's eyes.
If I have to say a reason, probably because many who wanted to stay didn't think they needed to vote, believing no one crazy enough to vote leave anyway. :wink:

A little off topic question: so the usual narrative is that young people (especially students) despite want to stay, didn't turn to vote. So something like 80% of them want to stay but only ~30% showed up to vote. I had always thought these are hard statistic. But I noticed recently there have been many articles coming out challenge that narrative, with some claim the turn out of young voters was as high as 75%. So I take a closer look at where the numbers coming from, and it looks like all of them are inferred from polls result. And of course, I had developed a healthy skepticism for any kind of inferential statistics coming from the media.

Which make me wonder, there is not an official body to actually keep track of these things? :gruebel:

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Re: For those appalled by US politics, our UK politics isn't anything to be proud of

Post by Golden_Gonads » Thu, 15. Nov 18, 08:17

BugMeister wrote:
Wed, 14. Nov 18, 23:53
some of us knew it at the time - we tried to explain what was really going on..
- no-one listened..
Both sides had campaigns of lies, of pulling facts out of certain orifices when they really didn't - And still don't for that matter, have any clue what the reality will be.


I voted leave, but was of about six minds about it and up to the moment I put my cross on the slip didn't really know which way I'd vote. Even now I've no idea. That said I voted leave fully expecting a decade or more of economic hardship before things even start to turn around.

The EU is a bloated mess of bureaucracy and greed. I mean look at the UK's M.E.P's. Fruitcakes the lot of them. And they make decisions for most of Europe?!

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