esd's X² guide to loops

[Storm666]

Argghhhh Loops!!!
The guide ESD has produced above is very good and explains the different types of loop you can build quite clearly. But there seems to be a bit of discussion going on about the benefits of closed loops compared to open loops, pjknibbs + DeathAndPain you are both correct, but what DeathAndPain hasn’t considered is that people usually build closed (no money) loops because they already have a running economy trading with the NPC within sector using standard standalone open factories, this is what pjknibbs is pointing out. A closed loop runs independently of any NPC involvement and is a way to build above what that sector can support = more profits.
Take argon prime for example, if you have a ammo factory/crystal fab/spp/couple of cahoona bakeries etc selling to the NPC and drawing their resources from the NPC, and you want to add a 1mw shield factory, you will find the sector cannot support it because all the factories are pulling the energy out of the NPC and your CF and AMMO are pulling the cahoonas. So what do you do?, do you pop another spp and cahoona in drawing more from the NPC? Because it wont work theres not enough crystals to support the extra spp, the cahoonas will need argnu that will effect your existing cahoona bakeries and the extra strain on energy is just too much. You end up crashing your existing economy. This is where you would use a closed loop!
Also by the time people are considering closed loops... money is not a problem.

[NavaCorp]

The final high-tech factory is only the top of the investition-cost-iceberg. Of course 25 MW shields or whatever you plan on making are valuable when you sell them, but if you compare their value with the huge investitions you made to get there, then the profit is pathetic.

Once recovered, your investment is pure huge profit. I wrote above that my two loops recovered fastly the investment I did.

So whatever gain you see in a closed loop, the open loop will give you the same gain, but a fat on-the-way-profit on top of it! That is also why I responded to pjknibbs that he can serve his goal of supplying the galaxy economy with free e-cells and still make the additional profit on an open loop

The advantage of a closed loops is that once started it never stops, instead open loops (I have one in PE) sometimes do or sometimes factories involved in the open loop have a credit shortage.

Anyway as I wrote above I prefer single stations or open loops because hey don't require a lot of effort ortime spentet them and I limit them on particular situations.

[mercurior]

leaky loops, closed loops and open loops, there are things to be said for all of them, closed allows you to create stuff for yourself, open loops bring in profit, leaky loops allow you to have the best of both worlds..

sometimes i create a closed loop, as you produce more ecells than are required by the loop, and this has a knock on effect on all the other in the loop, eventually your loop will be near full, then u either open it or add another station where the money comes into it..

so long as your facts havent paid back the cost for the fact itself, and the ships, and the resources initially needed, there is no profit.. what i have started to do is create it so that each factory, transfers money to my main account, but i put the price as the cost of the fact, plus ships plus 100,000.. that way they create the next ones in the next system.. and so on.. a self perpetuating loop of loops..

[DeathAndPain]

psst. DeathandPain...esd said "...providing a product that was made using only your materials... "

Psst... chovy... I never said that such a thing cannot be done. I just pointed out that and why it is not reasonable to do it (unless you want to do it just for the beauty of having it).

they already have a running economy trading with the NPC within sector using standard standalone open factories ... [snip] ... you want to add a 1mw shield factory, you will find the sector cannot support it because all the factories are pulling the energy out of the NPC and your CF and AMMO are pulling the cahoonas. So what do you do?, do you pop another spp and cahoona in drawing more from the NPC?

Not exactly. I set up an ... open loop. You did notice that I pointed out that no stations are missing in the open loop, did you For your closed loop, you would have to set up all stations that you need in order to produce your 1MW shield, including the most basic stuff like an spp and a cattle ranch. Well, I do just the same. So I do not draw in more from the NPC, because for every resource that one of my stations buys from an NPC station, another of my stations is selling exactly that resource back to another NPC station. The "foreign trade balance" is zero! You could also say that any shortage one of my station causes by buying a NPC resource is remedied by another of my stations selling exactly that resource back to a NPC station that needs it (so that this NPC station no longer needs to buy it from the NPC source where I bought my stuff from).

Also by the time people are considering closed loops... money is not a problem.

I considered setting up a closed loop when I bought my first station. Of course I had in mind to set up the loop step-by-step, as my bank balance allowed. However, that was before I learnt about the ineffectiveness of closed loops and the weirdness of X2 economy.

Once recovered, your investment is pure huge profit. I wrote above that my two loops recovered fastly the investment I did.

Or so you believe. I could now say that my profit is even larger. Then you would say that your profit is even larger than what I said, and so on... but such a discussion is fruitless. Right now you have explained mathematics against you, NovaCorp. If you think that I am wrong, then you will have to point out why. Just watching your bank account going up and not knowing how fast it would have gone up if your loops had been open will not do.

The advantage of a closed loops is that once started it never stops meanwhile open loops (I have one in PE) sometimes do or sometimes factories involved in the open loop have a credit shortage.

There may be short-term shortages, yes. If there are too much of them, you will need a few support factories for the scarce resource as I pointed out before. Your support factories will be highly profitable though, because they will be making a scarce resource and be able to charge corresponding prices. Actually only intermediate products that are traded by trading stations really happen to become scarce (aside of e-cells), so you can produce these and have the trading stations fetch them at maximum price.

As for the credit shortage, that is only a matter of properly setting the high-water-mark in the Auto-transfer-money-to-player-account command. Your factories will require a certain amount of money to work with, that is correct. Most factories will do with 100000 credits or even less. Crystal Fabs are somewhat more demanding.

Wait a minute... what did you just say:

open loops (I have one in PE)

PE like in "Presidents End"? You set up a loop that is designed to intensely trade with NPC stations and you place it into the only sector where there are no NPC stations

[Galactico]

PE like in "Presidents End"? You set up a loop that is designed to intensely trade with NPC stations and you place it into the only sector where there are no NPC stations

i've made PE my 'home' sector, lotsa facts there, no closed loops, various legal and illegal goods, and to be honest, i get ships from all over the surounding areas coming and buying goods, sometimes to the detriment of my stations (till i stuck in a trading station to act as a storehouse).

Now i'm having to think about turning off the patrols as they keep killing my customers (i've got 2 destroyers, a carrier, a coupla centaurs and a dozen novas there patrolling either in or aroud the sector, it's pretty damn safe i'd say)

[esd]

I think we can assume for this discussion that loops are what the player wants to do. Whether a loop is right for them or not isn't the issue

Thanks for all the feedback though

[D_Zorro]

Thanks for the post, never thought about a double power loop before. Anyway this is all great with X2 but with X3 it will be even better since we can attach factories together so they really become loops.

No more ts ships then hey.

Anyway when building these double power loops do you actually build close to eachother or are they spreaded out in game ???

DZorro,

[fchopin]

LOGISTICSNow I use the Logistics Software, but do not allow it to learn. this keeps it free, and identical to the SDS. In the diagrams, the arrows represent SDS deliveries. For the Solar Power Plants I have one ship supplying two or three factories.

You mean you do allow them to learn but you do not use the advansed fanctions...

[esd]

You mean you do allow them to learn but you do not use the advansed fanctions...

No, I do not allow them to learn. They need the Trading Extension to be able to access the training courses. I don't give their ships one.

Anyway when building these double power loops do you actually build close to eachother or are they spreaded out in game ???

DZorro,

The closer, the shorter the travel time. This ultimately helps the loop run more efficiently. I build my loops on a three-dimensional grid, on multiples of ten. For example, the SPP at 10x10x0, the Crystal Fab at 10x10x10, the Cattle Ranch at 20x10x0 and the Cahoona Bakery at 20x10x10. The only exceptions are the mines, which go on an asteroid.

[fchopin]

You mean you do allow them to learn but you do not use the advansed fanctions...

No, I do not allow them to learn. They need the Trading Extension to be able to access the training courses. I don't give their ships one.

Good thinking.

[chovy]

psst. DeathandPain...esd said "...providing a product that was made using only your materials... "

Psst... chovy... I never said that such a thing cannot be done. I just pointed out that and why it is not reasonable to do it (unless you want to do it just for the beauty of having it).

I give up! No I don't!
D&P, what I meant was your post was a bit irrelevant (and your own opinion) because esd was describing a loop that "...was made using only your materials.." I.E. not involving the AI stations at all. Your post was all about: 'its not efficient' which I disagree with - I think esd's example is very efficient; 'You can introduce the NPC stations to get more profit', which although that is true, it adds more complexity to your loops, including changing the software, giving different commands to each ship and injecting money into the loop occasionally. Which, I might add was not the point of esd's post.

I prefer esd's way of doing the loop BECAUSE it is simple and easy. I've read your (and some other peoples) posts about similar topics and seriously, I find them really hard to follow. Adding AI to a closed loop doesn't make sense to me as I dont want to have to worry about injecting money into a closed, moneyless loop.

Maybe there's something I've missed, but having a closed loop seems to me the easist way to end up with a product for free. Whether you sell it or use it is beside the point.


@esd: I've had a sudden thought about your loop.
You could train up the CLS in the SPP to the second level. The cost is so minimal and it comes out of the player account, it doesn't affect the loop. Then after training the pilot to the second level, remove the Trading extension so they can't learn any further... that way you'll have one single low cost ship supplying the SPP loop with energy. Of course this might need adjustment for a double/product loop. what do yahs think?

Edit: Ignore this. Here's why.

[DeathAndPain]

chovy, I do not think that in a "guide to loops" (and that is the subject of this thread as defined by esd) discussion about loop efficiency is out of place. I understand your standpoint, which is that you prefer closed loops because they are easier to understand and handle. I subsume this under "beauty of closed loops" as mentioned by me before.

Adding AI to a closed loop doesn't make sense to me as I dont want to have to worry about injecting money into a closed, moneyless loop.

You only have to if one of your factories has too little money to operate with. If you set them all up properly, you will never have to inject any money. The reason is that all of your factories in an open loop are making positive profit (unlike the closed loop where visible profit only occurs at the very end, or "outlet" of the loop), so money shortages can only be temporary.

There is that fancy "auto transfer money to player account" command available in the command console of each of your factories. Here you set the amount of money your factory has to play with. Many factories can be set to 70000 and be fine. Crystal fabs need to buy so many resources that they will run into a shortage sooner or later, so you need a higher limit here (something like 150000 credits). Any excess profit made anywhere will be transferred to your account on automatic. On top of getting your final product (like in the closed loop), you get a constant stream of money pouring into your coffers.

If you are using the BPH (logistics) software, you will be sure never to miss when a factory runs out of money, because your BPH pilot will send you a message that he wants his money. You can then inject it and at the same time increase the limit of the factory so that it will not bother you again.

I agree that an open loop is more complex to set up, but once it is up and running, it will not require any manual intervention while making a huge deal of profit.

[solah]

If you are using the BPH (logistics) software, you will be sure never to miss when a factory runs out of money, because your BPH pilot will send you a message that he wants his money.

You could also use SMS (Station Management Suite) software do define a Low Level water mark for a given station. Like the BPH pilot, you will receive a message that your Fabs operating capitol has fallen below your pre-defined level.

IMO each of these loops are good and both have their place.

The open loop is more volitile, but should provide a better profit, with the possibility of losing out when a transport buys shortly after the price has increased, where the closed loop which operates at on average a lower, but more consistant profit.

[MGA]

Thanks esd. I'll take your info into account when building a chain.

[NavaCorp]

Once recovered, your investment is pure huge profit. I wrote above that my two loops recovered fastly the investment I did.

Or so you believe. I could now say that my profit is even larger. Then you would say that your profit is even larger than what I said, and so on... but such a discussion is fruitless. Right now you have explained mathematics against you, NovaCorp. If you think that I am wrong, then you will have to point out why. Just watching your bank account going up and not knowing how fast it would have gone up if your loops had been open will not do.

If you read my post I don't "watch my account going up", I use the SMS log to check how much my factories earn. So I did with the two final fabs in my loops. Besides before that I'd already done my calculations.

As for the credit shortage, that is only a matter of properly setting the high-water-mark in the Auto-transfer-money-to-player-account command. Your factories will require a certain amount of money to work with, that is correct. Most factories will do with 100000 credits or even less. Crystal Fabs are somewhat more demanding.

All my factories (apart closed loops, of course) can keep 400.000 for themseves.

Wait a minute... what did you just say:

open loops (I have one in PE)

PE like in "Presidents End"? You set up a loop that is designed to intensely trade with NPC stations and you place it into the only sector where there are no NPC stations

In my PE (1 trading station + 19 factories) the NPC traffic it's so high that sometimes it causes FPS problems (and my PC is quite powerful) due the high number of TS of all races running to my factories (apart Khaak and Xenon ).

[jlehtone]

Wait a minute... what did you just say:

open loops (I have one in PE)

PE like in "Presidents End"? You set up a loop that is designed to intensely trade with NPC stations and you place it into the only sector where there are no NPC stations

As NavaCorp says, the trading can be fine. However, that may not necessarily be as secure and efficient as when the potential NPC producers/customers are sitting next to player fabs. A closed loop is likely to have jumps set to 0, and minimal transportation distance is good for open loops, too.

[Agifem]

Just a quick thanks to esd for this very clear and nicely illustrated guide. I have such loops in Rhy's Desire, which produce alpha and beta HEPTs for free. Using best buy instructions require me to inject credits in my factories, especially in the HEPT forges since i don't sell the canons. I intend to follow your advice and use the "0 credit" extension.

[jlehtone]

Not exactly. I set up an ... open loop. You did notice that I pointed out that no stations are missing in the open loop, did you For your closed loop, you would have to set up all stations that you need in order to produce your 1MW shield, including the most basic stuff like an spp and a cattle ranch. Well, I do just the same. So I do not draw in more from the NPC, because for every resource that one of my stations buys from an NPC station, another of my stations is selling exactly that resource back to another NPC station. The "foreign trade balance" is zero! You could also say that any shortage one of my station causes by buying a NPC resource is remedied by another of my stations selling exactly that resource back to a NPC station that needs it (so that this NPC station no longer needs to buy it from the NPC source where I bought my stuff from).

And that is the beauty of it. The closed loop (well done esd, clear guide) is cheap, secure and simple. The open loop has higher investment, potentially higher running cost, higher risk, higher complexity and higher profitsss.

There is no need for money in the closed loop fabs. Multi-loop systems may work with only a few high level CLS freighters, but the savings in initial investment are slowly eaten by pilot fees. And a loss of such transport will really hurt. Demeters are rather good transports can be fully equipped (CLS) already at the shipyard.

The open loop requires investment of float cash into each fab. The ATC pilots (and SMS) will require fees - a running cost - but that is the only reason why money does dissapper from the system. The fabs never sell for less than what they payed for their resources. One could of course use Mk1 and Mk2 traders instead of ATC, but too many ships is too many. What a pain to ferry each new (non-Boron) transport first to Boronian EQ Dock just to get ATC fitted.

There is only one end product, both in open and in closed loop. To make any money and keep the system running at top speed, there must be a constant demand for that product. Thus, the product must be soldable to trading docks, equipment docks, or as secondary resource to NPC fabs. Those are the product sinks of the system. ECells is an another easily soldable product, since the universe/economy does not have enough SPPs in the beginning. That market is limited, but still huge.

The closed loop trades also intermediate products, when profitable. That has a slight risk if the local sectors have a huge demand for a particular resource: the NPCs may buy out the resource and not provide enough in return. Similarly, the Trade docks may discard products, if our buyer is too slow. It is just fine to store stuff in a trash can, but occasionally that may turn out to be a lossy solution. I think that the most often quoted open loop trick is to sell passively the crystals at max and buy them back from the Trade dock. I tried that, but probably too early, since and my SPP ran out of crystals, and thus I closed the loop for now. However, there is no reason not to try open loops with most wares free for trade, except the added complexity.

As for NPC fabs consuming all your products and not producing the same ware enough, well that is an inbalance of the NPC economy. Thus, to make open loop reliable is to fix the holes of the NPC production lines. Babysitting. But those extra 'stopgap' fabs cannot sell for more than the same type 'in the loop'. That would be unnecessary inbalance. Still making money, though.

JMCorp has a nice approach for those 'babysitters' here.

There is one more difference between open and closed loop, not really strongly pointed by any of the quides: the race of closed loop is of no significance, but the race of open loop should be the same of NPC fabs or their secondary resources. The closed loop can be build from the cheapest fabs (transportation cost included). Since the middleproducts are not traded, their type is irrelevant.

There is only one limit to the size of the empire and that is the sum of the yield of the silicon and ore asteroids. Every fab, except NPC SPPs (and they do it too as secondary), uses silicon.

[chovy]

@esd: I've had a sudden thought about your loop.
You could train up the CLS in the SPP to the second level. The cost is so minimal and it comes out of the player account, it doesn't affect the loop. Then after training the pilot to the second level, remove the Trading extension so they can't learn any further... that way you'll have one single low cost ship supplying the SPP loop with energy. Of course this might need adjustment for a double/product loop. what do yahs think?

Unfortunatly this doesn't work with CLS. When you remove the trade extension, the pilot's level goes back from courier to assistant. It doesn't keep its levels.

[Shanjaq]

Now I use the Logistics Software, but do not allow it to learn. this keeps it free, and identical to the SDS.

It's not free even without learning, I have this 126930c bill after a supplier has accumulated 72 flight hours!