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Posted: Fri, 2. Apr 04, 16:56
by reed
i like the idea but it creates a few major problems such as:

1) eventually it would become easier to take over ships than actually spend your time saving up for one.

2) eventually X2 would become a space strategy game it would be less of a trader sim as it would take too long to do it that way and people could litterally conquer the universe (though a good idea) but this would suck all the life out of the trading part as it would focus more on combat.

all in all if you want a game that incorporates these features buy a different game not only could X2 not keep up and the amount of calculations to be done it would remove the idea of trade, think, fight, etc.

Posted: Fri, 2. Apr 04, 17:18
by Sleeper Service
PLEASE NO FPS IN X2

do you relise just how long it would take to load! You'd have to change the actuall engine then load the wapons and texures. It would also get boring after a while, becase all the ship would be the same inside.

The best way to do it would be mathematically. Say you hire a Boron crew for an Argon titan, that gives you a crew of around 300. You decide to attack a Paranid crewed Zues, a crew of around 700. Because the Boron aint great at close combat you could give thm a -20%, giving you the value 240 for your Boron crew combat stats. Then the Paranid have say a +30% because no one can beat a Paranid in single combat, this gives the Paranid crew 910 as a combat value. But you've bought your Boron crew miniture Hornet missles and gamma low energy plasma throwers (LEPTs) wich gives them a +200% combat value on the attack, their value is now 520. The Paranid however only have alpah partical accelarator rifles (PARs) which dont give any bonus on the defence, so their value is still 910. Then you decide how many of the crew you will commit to the attack say you go for 50 boron marines, they will have a value of 120. The Paranid are badly prepared and only have 100 marines in defence, althought this still gives them a value of 130 (whene defending)

The combat goes as such, each boron marine has 10hp and each Paranid has 11. The attack values are the same for the whole combat, you decide casualtys by first deciding wheter the marines hit or not. This is done by getting the accuracy values for the crews, lets say the Boron are elite and have a 50% hit value + say a 5% extra for having mini hornets. The Paranid on the other hand arent so good at aiming and only have a 30% chance of hitting. For every hit that is scored you do damage to that of the attacker's value. This is then taken away from the stacked hps of the defenders.

You could add in other stuff like armour to increse the hp of your crew, and make combat localised to a certain part of the ship. the winners of the combat could ether be told to try and sabotage the ship or to go up against the ship's remaining crew to try to cap it.

Right im off to de-geek myself.

Posted: Fri, 2. Apr 04, 17:41
by blackflame
Ok, Ill get carried away a bit.

The direction you are heading is towards my ultimate dream game

1 - Online
2 - MMORPG - sort of, forget role-playing as in 'Hello, Im a warrior', just role-playing as in 'tonight I fly a fighter, tomorrow I shoot a rifle'
3 - Some people owns things, some people fly ships, some people shoot guns
4 - The ones who own things, hire people to do things - dont care really if the owners are AI, real, whatever.
5 - Groups of people get together to do the things - transport stuff, capture stuff, destroy stuff, protect stuff. This could be in space, on a planet, in a station - anywhere.
6 - Bring together those with the needed skills for each task. Could be long-term, clan-like, as in Planetside, or short-term, like a fight in Mechwarrior or XWing vs Tie Fighter.
7 - SLOWLY get better at doing things - too quick = too easy
8 - Enjoy (At least I would - combine Freelancer, X2, and Planetside)

Comments, anyone - Im not asking for anything that doesnt already exist - just link it all together!

Posted: Fri, 2. Apr 04, 17:45
by junj.chan
i guess it could be done like an rpg game, just order your troops to board, then u get a report saying succesful/failed, losses, kills, blah blah blah...
like an attack in Earth 2025 if any of u have played that

Posted: Fri, 2. Apr 04, 17:59
by grandgnu
It would not get boring because "all the ships would be the same inside"

All the exterior designs for space stations/factories and the ships are different, why would the interiors be any different? The layout of Split vs. Boron ships would be quite different, as would Teladi/Paranid/Argon/Xenon/Khaak. Some are built for function, some for comfort.

Maybe some of the troops you fight inside a ship would be able to adapt to your weaponry and maybe you wouldn't have any effect unless you THINK a way to get around their defenses (i.e. Borg from Star Trek adapting to your weapons frequencies)

Posted: Fri, 2. Apr 04, 18:06
by ArgonTrustedLoony
blackflame wrote: Comments, anyone - Im not asking for anything that doesnt already exist - just link it all together!
It may well have all been done before, but never together and mostly for reasons that have already been mentioned, I seriously doubt that any current home computer is capable of handling all of these aspects in one go.

As has been implied already, a space sim graphics engine is no good for FPS games and vice versa.

I agree it would be a really cool game but something will always suffer in this sort of compromise.

Posted: Fri, 2. Apr 04, 18:18
by blackflame
Im not asking for it all together - just linked.

I dont know how many people here have played games via the Microsoft Game Zone (its not swearing here is it, mentioning Bill?), but I always liked the way of arranging games.

Talk to each other, get in one room, launch, beat each other up for a while, then go back and start again. Made tournament easy.

So something like - but inside the game, and the bit that launches is chosen by the type of mission. Half a dozen (10, 50 - more the merrier) people accept an in-game task, go off, win or lose, come back, and the universe updates on the result.

So no compromise engine - a space sim one, if its a space task, fps etc - potentially even a strategic one if someone gets hired to command an assault too large for a real time sim. Effectively a separate game for each style...

Ok, I know Im asking for a lot - but all the elements do exist - its just the permenant universe in the background giving it all meaning that I'd like to see added.

I have played campagin style games in XWing vs Tie Fighter and Mechwarrior - but they relied on manual reporting, manual updating and eventually the poor soul who started it gets swamped by the scale and cracks. I'd love to see it automated.

Keep picking on me - I might come up with more over the top ideas yet :)

Posted: Fri, 2. Apr 04, 18:22
by ArgonTrustedLoony
I think you've got a good idea there, but it would take a lot of companies pulling together to make it happen. Maybe some day.

Posted: Fri, 2. Apr 04, 18:24
by Momaw
Boarding missions would be neat. I'd be happy if it was just a text/menu interface though.

Get your target to 50% hull and shields down, deploy a troop ship (Command->Special->Insert Marines, select target). The ship lands, offloads the marines, and launches again. Capture chance depends on 1) the type of ship that you're trying to capture (TL's are easier than M1's, and M1's are easier than M2's, logic: M2's are basically huge boxes, largely staffed with techs and launch crew) and 2) the number of boarding parties that managed to dock, the skill level of the marines and how well equipped they are.

You'd hire them from a new installation, Marine Academy. Each "Marine Boarding Party" would take up 600XL cargo units. Rookie marines cost only ~50K credits, elite veterans cost around 2 million. Once you've hired the marines, you may buy additional weapons for them that can slightly increase their chances, such as "Fragmenting ammo" for an extra 15K credits, or "Antipersonnel grenades" for 145K.

Different types of marines have different levels of performance:
- Boron marines have the poorest capture chance per team, but have a possibility of supressing the ship's weaponry and defenses (meaning you can more easily get more troops landed)
- Teladi marines have a better capture chance than Boron, and loot the ship as they move, meaning you get a bit of cash even if the ship is not captured.
- Argon marines have a good chance of capture, but do a fair bit of damage to the ship as they're trying to take over
- Split marines have very good chances of victory, assuming they don't blow up the ship first: they're very destructive; count on losing a lot of hull and equipment if you hire Split marines
- Paranid marines... I dunno. Hm.

Once the ship carrying the party has docked to the capture target, the party is removed from the ship's cargo hold. The logic is that you only hired them for a single mission, and they went home (assuming they weren't all killed).

Posted: Fri, 2. Apr 04, 18:37
by JackScratch
Oh it's completely doable on today's computers, it's just that no one has truly done it yet. To use a less than perfect example, Earth and Beyond had both ships and interior locations, and the People looked very good too. But they didn't go the full distance and add interior combat.

And really you just need to look as recently as Freelancer to see that the engine did a great job with both People and Starships. They just missed going the extra mile and make the people sections truly interactive.

My dream game will definately be a true combination of the two. Giving your character skills that affect both being in a ship (piloting, gunnery) and off one (Trading, Marksmanship, etc.)

Having said all that, I wouldn't encourage this in X because their handling of people was truly bad to the point of damaging the rest of the experience. :)

Posted: Fri, 2. Apr 04, 18:40
by Subjugation
It would take a lotta modifying to get X2's engine to do FPS sequences. I'd much prefer they spent their time on the expansion.

Posted: Fri, 2. Apr 04, 19:32
by grandgnu
Another cool aspect could be that you know your ship or station is losing to the boarding party and will fall into enemy hands soon.

They haven't been able to activate the self-destruction sequence, so you use your fleet ships to blow the resource and jump out of the losing battle in the system, denying your enemy additional resources (scorched earth campaign). Plus you might take some of their elite troops with the destruction.

And no, I don't expect them to add this to X2, but perhaps a future X game it would be cool.

Posted: Fri, 2. Apr 04, 19:55
by Redjack
sq_paradox wrote:Appartently you have not seen any games that try to mix genres in that way ie Universal Combat, Operation Flashpoint. When developers are forced to put to game engines into one both engines suffer. and don't give me the whole it could be one engine thing, it doesn't work.
I don't know what your definition of engine is, but Operation Flashpoint did a great job at merging infantry, tank, and chopper combat all into one game engine.

Edit: The difference between the idea presented in the thread and OFP is that OFP was designed from the ground up to contain all aspects of combat.

While it would be really cool to be able to board ships or walk around your own ship, I don't think it's a good idea to add something this extensive to the game as an afterthought. All you'll get is a horrible mess.

Posted: Fri, 2. Apr 04, 20:52
by Golden_Gonads
A game that did something similar to this, was Pirates of the Caribbean (A.K.A. Sea Dogs II) OK, it was a lousy game, but you could grapple onto enemy ships & board them. Then kill the captain, and the ship was yours - IF you had an officer to assign to it...

A different way to do it, is the way its done in Pirates! Gold! Just you vs. the enemy captain with your 'strength' 'Endurance' and 'HitPoints' worked out by the strength of your crew compared to that of the other vessel...


--

Goldenus 'Flaming-Vodka-Beard Argghhh Me-Hearties!' Gonadius

Posted: Fri, 2. Apr 04, 22:20
by beefsteaks
I don't see any reason the whole X2 Universe couldn't be built on an FPS engine?

All X2 is, is an FPS game in space. Instead of trees and buildings you have stations and planets, instead of tanks and jeeps and infantry you have space ships.

Theres no reason you couldnt do X2 in an engine like the Unreal engine lets say.

Also it wouldn't get boring because you dont HAVE to do the infantry missions and the insertion missions.


I remember playing Star Trek Comman (i think that was the name of it). I loved buyilding up my huge empire and sending spies and emisarries and soldiers into planet misisons, and I always wondered how cool it would have been if I could take over command of one of those misisons.

Instead of sending Skywalker on a spying mission, better to take him there myself, Jedi Academy style :D

When I'm done, maybe I will go back and do some tradiong or send my fleets against another planet or whatever. Imagine the endless gameplay :D

As for becoming a space strategy game insterad of a trading game, it wouldnt have to if the economy was done well.


If there were clever ways to make quick money, and 'special' trade opportunities and routes to be found, trading would always have its value.

In Elite trading was much better because it was very dynamic, you could always find new ways to make a quick buck. Planets having war needed firearms, and then after they needed medical supplies.....even moreso when you pirated their supplies ;)


Everyone is right that it would take some devs working together and would have its teething troubles to set up, but hell it would be worth it.

Even something like the SOF II random mission generator would be cool, that could randomly seed a whole level in a few seconds. No huge load times with that either :)

Anyway, it would be great if it ever happened I bet. Something for everyone and plenty variety to chop and change depoending on how you feel like playing.