Updated Information?

[kohlrak]

One quick question: Why?

Mostly because I could. My thought was to see if it could make a different approach to scanning missions feasible.

I'm still kindof in my "new toy" phase with this game, so I tend to do whatever experiments pop into my head to understand more about how the game works and what can/can't be exploited.

Well, given i can't just use it to turn any ship i want to red by the looks of things, i'm not sure what I could do with it, shy of setting up some pirates to transport things on my behalf until i can come back and get them. You come up with anything?

[lyonhaert]

One quick question: Why?

Mostly because I could. My thought was to see if it could make a different approach to scanning missions feasible.

I'm still kindof in my "new toy" phase with this game, so I tend to do whatever experiments pop into my head to understand more about how the game works and what can/can't be exploited.

Well, given i can't just use it to turn any ship i want to red by the looks of things, i'm not sure what I could do with it, shy of setting up some pirates to transport things on my behalf until i can come back and get them. You come up with anything?

Nope. Given the usual 10 minute time frame of the scanning missions and the amount of time it took me to successfully entrap one (I missed two times before I succeeded) you'd get 1 or 2 entrapped. Also, I wouldn't trust any NPC, let alone pirates, to not sell the stuff I had them hold.

The other problems with the entrapment are:

1. You get a percentage of the value scanned, so you have to be able to plant enough of a valuable ware on them.
2. I don't know how consistently you can get that ware back, since it's worth more than what you get from the mission.
3. You have to hunt through ships, scanning them to see who has a bunch of free space first, and a second scan after you've entrapped them might not count to the mission logic.

So mostly I decided to do just the one part of this to see how difficult the piloting and "aiming" was. And unless there's a way to pull the reverse-pickpocket-grenade trick (a la Fallout) on a spaceship, it might not be a useful possibility at all.

[Timsup2nothin]

And unless there's a way to pull the reverse-pickpocket-grenade trick (a la Fallout) on a spaceship, it might not be a useful possibility at all.

Well, there is some variation in the mechanisms, but the reverse-pickpocket-grenade effect can be achieved by doing the 'maneuver in front and drop' that you've been doing, just use a squash mine.

[lyonhaert]

And unless there's a way to pull the reverse-pickpocket-grenade trick (a la Fallout) on a spaceship, it might not be a useful possibility at all.

Well, there is some variation in the mechanisms, but the reverse-pickpocket-grenade effect can be achieved by doing the 'maneuver in front and drop' that you've been doing, just use a squash mine.

I'm going to blow myself up, aren't I? Well, that'll be fun, too.

[Timsup2nothin]

And unless there's a way to pull the reverse-pickpocket-grenade trick (a la Fallout) on a spaceship, it might not be a useful possibility at all.

Well, there is some variation in the mechanisms, but the reverse-pickpocket-grenade effect can be achieved by doing the 'maneuver in front and drop' that you've been doing, just use a squash mine.

I'm going to blow myself up, aren't I? Well, that'll be fun, too.

You may have to perfect a combination of "drop range" and escape velocity...and yeah, in the course of perfecting that you might get blown up a few times.

[kohlrak]

Given squash minds don't use Friend-or-Foe, I wonder if you could do something like this to make stations go boom without the agro.

[Timsup2nothin]

A something to try, dock an expendable ship at the station with a load of squash mines. Give it an order, and as soon as it undocks eject the entire cargo of mines. I'd guess that if you have enough of them it would eliminate the station, and you can hardly be blamed.

[kohlrak]

A something to try, dock an expendable ship at the station with a load of squash mines. Give it an order, and as soon as it undocks eject the entire cargo of mines. I'd guess that if you have enough of them it would eliminate the station, and you can hardly be blamed.

I don't have anything at the moment, but would be an interesting thing to try, especially if i can figure out how to get the ship out of the blast range. I'm mostly worried about whether or not the squashes do somehow get attributed to you.

[lyonhaert]

I don't have anything at the moment, but would be an interesting thing to try, especially if i can figure out how to get the ship out of the blast range. I'm mostly worried about whether or not the squashes do somehow get attributed to you.

Pretty sure the idea is you can't get it out of the blast. "Expendable ship" and so on. Do MORTs follow a "docking lane" into and out of a station in X2? That would keep them from getting away, too.

Tried them out last night a little in X3TC. They don't arm as soon as they're dropped, and the lack of a rep hit may have been a bug that got fixed. Snatched a Gannet and noted my Argon rep (police race) and Yaki rep (in case of friendly fire). Saved right before the first Argon Police Disco entered that sector and tried some variations. Didn't seem to matter whether I manually detonated them or activated and let the ships trigger them, I would lose rep. Same for a Paranid military group that was raiding the Yaki.

Then I scripted some more mines into my TM and maneuvered very close to a station to try and release them, but they all spawned outside of the station's "bubble". Detonation from there didn't even scratch the station's shields. And since stations' shields and hulls are on par with M1/M2 and people use those to clear minefields, you'd need a lot of them. Later I'll see if I can push the spawned mines closer like the "reposition Build Station nav beacon" trick, but I bet they'll just be collected back into my hold.

Can't say if there's a rep hit from mines in X2, though.

[Timsup2nothin]

I don't have anything at the moment, but would be an interesting thing to try, especially if i can figure out how to get the ship out of the blast range. I'm mostly worried about whether or not the squashes do somehow get attributed to you.

Pretty sure the idea is you can't get it out of the blast. "Expendable ship" and so on. Do MORTs follow a "docking lane" into and out of a station in X2? That would keep them from getting away, too.

Tried them out last night a little in X3TC. They don't arm as soon as they're dropped, and the lack of a rep hit may have been a bug that got fixed. Snatched a Gannet and noted my Argon rep (police race) and Yaki rep (in case of friendly fire). Saved right before the first Argon Police Disco entered that sector and tried some variations. Didn't seem to matter whether I manually detonated them or activated and let the ships trigger them, I would lose rep. Same for a Paranid military group that was raiding the Yaki.

Then I scripted some more mines into my TM and maneuvered very close to a station to try and release them, but they all spawned outside of the station's "bubble". Detonation from there didn't even scratch the station's shields. And since stations' shields and hulls are on par with M1/M2 and people use those to clear minefields, you'd need a lot of them. Later I'll see if I can push the spawned mines closer like the "reposition Build Station nav beacon" trick, but I bet they'll just be collected back into my hold.

Can't say if there's a rep hit from mines in X2, though.

Key to not having them kick away from the station is being out of the sector when they drop and then getting them detonated without going in. Dropping a bunch while OOS and then triggering the collision algorithm to scatter them randomly about is an interesting and unpleasant concept that I hadn't thought of.

On the rep hit...I was thinking that the ship that triggers the mines would determine the rep hit, and since my intention was to trigger them with the 'expendable' ship that dropped them that should be zero, or even if somehow they delayed long enough for that ship to get away and then got triggered by the next ship coming to the dock at least it would be less than for blowing up the station. They might track rep for collateral damage as well though.

[lyonhaert]

Yeah, I was dropping them IS. I'll have to try positioning the TM very close and then take a fighter OOS before dropping them. The mines that had a rep hit were dropped IS by the ship I was piloting. I don't assume anything different will happen in regard to rep from a remote-operated ship dropping them, even OOS, because the mines were all green anyway but I'll give it a shot tonight. There's a nice group of Paranid about to come through a gate in that experimental save that will make great test subjects.

I'll try a few variations on causing damage, too. Detonating them manually OOS. Activating them and ordering a remote ship to get close to trigger. Activating and waiting for somebody else to trigger them.

[Timsup2nothin]

I highly recommend the first tactic I proposed, give a docked ship an order to go somewhere, then immediately eject the mines as soon as the option comes available. That should correlate to the pause between undocking and processing the next step in the orders, so the mines should wind up basically piled alongside the docking clamps, as long as you are out of sector.

[jlehtone]

Should one remind that there is no GoD in X2?

NPC Factories do not spawn. Docks, SY's, and Pirate Bases do return, but a lost NPC Factory is lost for good in X2. Only the player can build new factories and player does not gain credits by trading with player stations.

The X3's are a different story.

[Timsup2nothin]

Should one remind that there is no GoD in X2?

NPC Factories do not spawn. Docks, SY's, and Pirate Bases do return, but a lost NPC Factory is lost for good in X2. Only the player can build new factories and player does not gain credits by trading with player stations.

The X3's are a different story.

Translation: in X2 working on ways to blow up a factory is like deciding which gun to use to shoot yourself in the foot.

[lyonhaert]

Some folks just want to watch the world burn.

[Timsup2nothin]

Okay, that was funny.

[kohlrak]

I don't have anything at the moment, but would be an interesting thing to try, especially if i can figure out how to get the ship out of the blast range. I'm mostly worried about whether or not the squashes do somehow get attributed to you.

Pretty sure the idea is you can't get it out of the blast. "Expendable ship" and so on. Do MORTs follow a "docking lane" into and out of a station in X2? That would keep them from getting away, too.

Tried them out last night a little in X3TC. They don't arm as soon as they're dropped, and the lack of a rep hit may have been a bug that got fixed. Snatched a Gannet and noted my Argon rep (police race) and Yaki rep (in case of friendly fire). Saved right before the first Argon Police Disco entered that sector and tried some variations. Didn't seem to matter whether I manually detonated them or activated and let the ships trigger them, I would lose rep. Same for a Paranid military group that was raiding the Yaki.

Then I scripted some more mines into my TM and maneuvered very close to a station to try and release them, but they all spawned outside of the station's "bubble". Detonation from there didn't even scratch the station's shields. And since stations' shields and hulls are on par with M1/M2 and people use those to clear minefields, you'd need a lot of them. Later I'll see if I can push the spawned mines closer like the "reposition Build Station nav beacon" trick, but I bet they'll just be collected back into my hold.

Can't say if there's a rep hit from mines in X2, though.

Might be worth pulling off, anyway. Also consider that in some games, simultaneous explosions don't count separately, so spreading them around the station might make more sense. Lemme know how it turns out, as i'm still building my loop.

I don't have anything at the moment, but would be an interesting thing to try, especially if i can figure out how to get the ship out of the blast range. I'm mostly worried about whether or not the squashes do somehow get attributed to you.

Pretty sure the idea is you can't get it out of the blast. "Expendable ship" and so on. Do MORTs follow a "docking lane" into and out of a station in X2? That would keep them from getting away, too.

Tried them out last night a little in X3TC. They don't arm as soon as they're dropped, and the lack of a rep hit may have been a bug that got fixed. Snatched a Gannet and noted my Argon rep (police race) and Yaki rep (in case of friendly fire). Saved right before the first Argon Police Disco entered that sector and tried some variations. Didn't seem to matter whether I manually detonated them or activated and let the ships trigger them, I would lose rep. Same for a Paranid military group that was raiding the Yaki.

Then I scripted some more mines into my TM and maneuvered very close to a station to try and release them, but they all spawned outside of the station's "bubble". Detonation from there didn't even scratch the station's shields. And since stations' shields and hulls are on par with M1/M2 and people use those to clear minefields, you'd need a lot of them. Later I'll see if I can push the spawned mines closer like the "reposition Build Station nav beacon" trick, but I bet they'll just be collected back into my hold.

Can't say if there's a rep hit from mines in X2, though.

Key to not having them kick away from the station is being out of the sector when they drop and then getting them detonated without going in. Dropping a bunch while OOS and then triggering the collision algorithm to scatter them randomly about is an interesting and unpleasant concept that I hadn't thought of.

On the rep hit...I was thinking that the ship that triggers the mines would determine the rep hit, and since my intention was to trigger them with the 'expendable' ship that dropped them that should be zero, or even if somehow they delayed long enough for that ship to get away and then got triggered by the next ship coming to the dock at least it would be less than for blowing up the station. They might track rep for collateral damage as well though.

This could be interesting to pull off. Thank god for monitors. Put it close to the station with a monitor. Leave sector. Drop. Profit.

Yeah, I was dropping them IS. I'll have to try positioning the TM very close and then take a fighter OOS before dropping them. The mines that had a rep hit were dropped IS by the ship I was piloting. I don't assume anything different will happen in regard to rep from a remote-operated ship dropping them, even OOS, because the mines were all green anyway but I'll give it a shot tonight. There's a nice group of Paranid about to come through a gate in that experimental save that will make great test subjects.

I'll try a few variations on causing damage, too. Detonating them manually OOS. Activating them and ordering a remote ship to get close to trigger. Activating and waiting for somebody else to trigger them.

They have friend-or-foe? Or is that just to keep an eye on your own mines?

I highly recommend the first tactic I proposed, give a docked ship an order to go somewhere, then immediately eject the mines as soon as the option comes available. That should correlate to the pause between undocking and processing the next step in the orders, so the mines should wind up basically piled alongside the docking clamps, as long as you are out of sector.

Worst case scenario, i could sacrifice a ship. If triggering ship gets the rep loss, I could always try to time it when the ship makes final into the station.

Should one remind that there is no GoD in X2?

NPC Factories do not spawn. Docks, SY's, and Pirate Bases do return, but a lost NPC Factory is lost for good in X2. Only the player can build new factories and player does not gain credits by trading with player stations.

The X3's are a different story.

This is good news. This is precisely want.

Should one remind that there is no GoD in X2?

NPC Factories do not spawn. Docks, SY's, and Pirate Bases do return, but a lost NPC Factory is lost for good in X2. Only the player can build new factories and player does not gain credits by trading with player stations.

The X3's are a different story.

Translation: in X2 working on ways to blow up a factory is like deciding which gun to use to shoot yourself in the foot.

Sektor 21 has the right idea.

Destroy the right factories, not all of them. Then as the NPC must buy your product at whatever price you set it, you increase profit margins. Plus, I have a bone to pick with certain stations making it hard for me to make any progress. In particular, the Bofu plants near Getsu Fune.

EDIT: There's also a pretty interesting factory in Herron's Nebula. Would be a shame if someone lit a match near all that alcohol.

EDIT2: I just realized I'm the reason why the Argon Federation bans alcohol in the next game.

EDIT3: I've read here that SPPs break the economy here, and I think i finally see why. They're the most needed and profitable station. I think the real problem, though, is the trading stations. They keep the price right at 16, so as you start to try to become self-sufficient, you'll end up needing crystals to get the whole works going. What i'm finding is that my ships are buying from the trading stations, whom, in turn, are buying from me. Their SPPs don't need crystals, which keeps the market from being saturated enough to make a profit that way, either, since you pretty much need to start making your own crystals. I'm hoping that once I get this cycle complete (or skip the bogas facts) and everyone's got enough energy to keep from flashing, that we'll net accumulate energy. I have this feeling we won't, though.

[lyonhaert]

They have friend-or-foe? Or is that just to keep an eye on your own mines?

SQUASH mines have no friend/foe settings. Once armed, they detonate for anyone's movement. At one point I had ejected a cluster near my TM remotely and armed them. They didn't detonate until I told the TM to jump.

Destroy the right factories, not all of them. Then as the NPC must buy your product at whatever price you set it, you increase profit margins. Plus, I have a bone to pick with certain stations making it hard for me to make any progress. In particular, the Bofu plants near Getsu Fune.

Figured you were going for something like that.

Anyway, quick rundown of my results from various fiddling with the mines in X3:TC.

Regardless of IS, OSS, manual detonated, or proximity triggered, they will cause rep loss with whoever they hit because they're the source of damage and you're their owner. (Barring cheatyface stuff like using a script to change their owner to someone else.)

The only way I could get a cluster of mines close to an SPP-M (8,000 MJ shields, 400,000 hull) was by laying them nearby and dragging the bloody station to them. But that means I have to be the owner of the station for the tractor beam to work. (How's that stop a tractor beam from working?) Even then, 200 of them should have at least put enough of a dent in the shields that it wouldn't register as 100% anymore. Even a Mosquito missile causes it to flicker to 99% and back to 100%. I think stations are immune to the mines.

I couldn't be able to tell you if their behavior is any different in X2. You could use the script editor to help you experiment, probably.

Since that was anticlimactic, some funny screen shots: These two Ryu who tried to get cozy. I'm not leaving my ships clustered around that gate anymore. And then there's this overkill Ware Delivery mission.

[kohlrak]

They have friend-or-foe? Or is that just to keep an eye on your own mines?

SQUASH mines have no friend/foe settings. Once armed, they detonate for anyone's movement. At one point I had ejected a cluster near my TM remotely and armed them. They didn't detonate until I told the TM to jump.

Destroy the right factories, not all of them. Then as the NPC must buy your product at whatever price you set it, you increase profit margins. Plus, I have a bone to pick with certain stations making it hard for me to make any progress. In particular, the Bofu plants near Getsu Fune.

Figured you were going for something like that.

Anyway, quick rundown of my results from various fiddling with the mines in X3:TC.

Regardless of IS, OSS, manual detonated, or proximity triggered, they will cause rep loss with whoever they hit because they're the source of damage and you're their owner. (Barring cheatyface stuff like using a script to change their owner to someone else.)

The only way I could get a cluster of mines close to an SPP-M (8,000 MJ shields, 400,000 hull) was by laying them nearby and dragging the bloody station to them. But that means I have to be the owner of the station for the tractor beam to work. (How's that stop a tractor beam from working?) Even then, 200 of them should have at least put enough of a dent in the shields that it wouldn't register as 100% anymore. Even a Mosquito missile causes it to flicker to 99% and back to 100%. I think stations are immune to the mines.

I couldn't be able to tell you if their behavior is any different in X2. You could use the script editor to help you experiment, probably.

Since that was anticlimactic, some funny screen shots: These two Ryu who tried to get cozy. I'm not leaving my ships clustered around that gate anymore. And then there's this overkill Ware Delivery mission.

I need that energy. Melenaus' Paradise (east of Getsu Fune) is so starved of energy, it's ridiculous. I'm fixing it up, now, but I can't afford what I need. Good thing i didn't blow up the Bofu plants. What i really need is to take out the SPPs. In between the trading station taking my energy just to resell it back to me (i think i got a fix for that) and the SPPs draining the few crystal coming out, it's a mess. The problem is the Bofu plants are too slow.

How's X3's economy? Will i be less tempted?

On a side note,

Spoiler

Show

I did the Melenaus mission got the top boron rank

and I still don't have security clearance for Kha'ak info. I guess combat level factors in, too, not just race relations (for someone playing X2)?

[lyonhaert]

X3:TC and AP there are multiple approaches to improve the barely-working economy. Also, you can set your stations/complexes to not trade with other races. Some folks build huge station complexes to be self-sufficient and/or train up a number of Universal Traders to help the economy out a bit. But after reading Tim's threads on how he uses Commodity Logistics Software Mk2 in networks to entirety dominate transport, I really liked the idea and have been working on that. I think there's a fair amount of control over how you interact with the economy.

So you're going to blow up the SPPs so you can get more of the crystals?