What am I missing with CLS training

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Trevelvis
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What am I missing with CLS training

Post by Trevelvis » Mon, 30. Oct 17, 18:05

I bought a couple of discoverers to start CLS training but can't work out how. I have looked at the guides but I think I am missing something. I next went to Military base to buy a pilot but doesn't give me that option in trade and if I just hit start external trade option it just says CLS standby. I know its something simple I am missing but I am something simple, Thanks

Timsup2nothin
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Post by Timsup2nothin » Mon, 30. Oct 17, 19:27

You can't just "start CLS" and have it do anything. You have to give it a list of waypoints first so that it has something to do. If all you are trying to do is train a pilot that list can be as simple as two stations with "fly to" commands and the ship will just endlessly fly back and forth between them. I personally consider that a wasted opportunity, since there are many, many useful things a CLS pilot can do...even an apprentice in a tiny ship.
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RainerPrem
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Re: What am I missing with CLS training

Post by RainerPrem » Mon, 30. Oct 17, 19:30

Trevelvis wrote:I bought a couple of discoverers to start CLS training but can't work out how. I have looked at the guides but I think I am missing something. I next went to Military base to buy a pilot but doesn't give me that option in trade and if I just hit start external trade option it just says CLS standby. I know its something simple I am missing but I am something simple, Thanks
Hi,

speaking about CLS1: You need to assign them to a station, and assign them goods and other stations of yours to deal with. You also need to take into account that they can't use their jump drives before reaching level 4. So you need to confine them to narrow space.

cu
Rainer

PS: Did you know that you can get higher level CLS pilots right from the start?
SpoilerShow
Start CLS2 on the trade station in Herron's Nebula. You can switch them to CLS1 or CAG afterward.

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Trevelvis
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Post by Trevelvis » Mon, 30. Oct 17, 23:41

It was mainly CLS2 I was trying as don't have any stations yet. I will try again with waypoints but that was not the order it said it the idiots :oops: guide to CLS

Timsup2nothin
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Post by Timsup2nothin » Mon, 30. Oct 17, 23:44

Trevelvis wrote:It was mainly CLS2 I was trying as don't have any stations yet. I will try again with waypoints but that was not the order it said it the idiots :oops: guide to CLS
That may be the problem. I'd suggest the CLS guide in my sig instead, as it was written for non-idiots like yourself.
Trapper Tim's Guide to CLS 2

On Her Majesty's Secret Service-Dead is Dead, and he is DEAD

Not a DiD, so I guess it's a DiDn't, the story of my first try at AP
Part One, in progress

HEY! AP!! That's new!!!

Solomon Short
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Post by Solomon Short » Tue, 31. Oct 17, 07:35

I recommend CLS2 for training as, AIUI, training levels are based on time between stations (or any docking actually).

It's been a while since I've done it, but IIRC you can drop a couple of satellites in a sector (such as Harmony of Perpetuity) then give the CLS2 training ships "Fly to Station" waypoints with the satellites as the targets.

Since satellites can't be docked with, the training ships will just loop between them, & (IIRC) approximately every 2 hours your pilots will level up (I think it takes 10 or 12 flight/in-game hours to reach Cargo Messenger, which is 15 waypoints & piloting of TLs).

The reason it's been a while since I bothered training pilots is 'cos I use the "secret" method I believe was spoilered above (didn't actually read the spoiler), you might want to note though that pilots obtained via that method won't get promoted to their next level until they have accumulated the necessary flight time, so it's a head-start more than a shortcut.

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Trevelvis
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Post by Trevelvis » Tue, 31. Oct 17, 10:46

Solomon Short wrote:I recommend CLS2 for training as, AIUI, training levels are based on time between stations (or any docking actually).

It's been a while since I've done it, but IIRC you can drop a couple of satellites in a sector (such as Harmony of Perpetuity) then give the CLS2 training ships "Fly to Station" waypoints with the satellites as the targets.

Since satellites can't be docked with, the training ships will just loop between them, & (IIRC) approximately every 2 hours your pilots will level up (I think it takes 10 or 12 flight/in-game hours to reach Cargo Messenger, which is 15 waypoints & piloting of TLs).

The reason it's been a while since I bothered training pilots is 'cos I use the "secret" method I believe was spoilered above (didn't actually read the spoiler), you might want to note though that pilots obtained via that method won't get promoted to their next level until they have accumulated the necessary flight time, so it's a head-start more than a shortcut.

I cant see how you can do satellites as it wont let you set them as waypoints unless I am missing something

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Trevelvis
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Post by Trevelvis » Tue, 31. Oct 17, 15:18

Timsup2nothin wrote:
Trevelvis wrote:It was mainly CLS2 I was trying as don't have any stations yet. I will try again with waypoints but that was not the order it said it the idiots :oops: guide to CLS
That may be the problem. I'd suggest the CLS guide in my sig instead, as it was written for non-idiots like yourself.
Thanks for your help but the CLS guide in ur sig confuses me further, maybe i should just stick to Local Traders.

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Post by RAVEN.myst » Tue, 31. Oct 17, 16:02

@Trevelvis: What follows is probably just a paraphrasing of whatever you've already read, but here goes, and hopefully it's clear:
- The training ship must have CLS2 and Navigation software installed.
- While docked, start the Trade - Commodity Logistics 2 command, and go to Waypoints.
- Add station - any station (I usually use a Trading Port or Military Outpost, but it really doesn't matter), except Shipyard (doesn't work with that, as far as I recall - probably because Shipyards don't trade wares). Select "Fly to station."
- Add another station, as above (just make it a different station)
- Start the command running (the separate option at the top of the menu, all by itself.)

The ship will now dock at the first station, have some coffee, then fly to and dock at the second station, go to the bathroom, then fly back... etc.

Here's a tip: most guides will recommend using a M5 for its cheapness, but using one of those will take a little longer, because of their speed. As another commenter has posted, the level-ups take place after ever 2 hours of flight time - so you want the ratio of flight time to docked time to be as great as possible. To that end, a slower ship is better, as is a longer distance between the two waypoint stations. Note however that the flight time is only added after every trip (each way - not each complete cycle) - so if you check the flight time mid-flight, it will not be accurate, it will be out of date by however long the ship has been flying on its current trip. Also, you don't want to stop or restart the command mid-flight unless you have good reason to, as that trip's time will then be discarded and not added.

My usual approach these days (if I'm doing this brute-force way, instead of working some productive training route) is to simply get the freighter the pilot will be using, and get him training in that, usually a route that takes him back and forth across ~3 sectors (pick a safe route for this, away from pirate territories.) This works for me because the training is slightly more efficient and faster than in a faster ship, I don't have superfluous ships that are used only for training, and then I don't have to move the pilot across to his actual ship once he graduates, I simply give him his new orders and put him to work right away - ie. it's quicker AND less hassle (and I'm lazy :P )
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Trevelvis
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Post by Trevelvis » Tue, 31. Oct 17, 20:14

RAVEN.myst wrote:@Trevelvis: What follows is probably just a paraphrasing of whatever you've already read, but here goes, and hopefully it's clear:
- The training ship must have CLS2 and Navigation software installed.
- While docked, start the Trade - Commodity Logistics 2 command, and go to Waypoints.
- Add station - any station (I usually use a Trading Port or Military Outpost, but it really doesn't matter), except Shipyard (doesn't work with that, as far as I recall - probably because Shipyards don't trade wares). Select "Fly to station."
- Add another station, as above (just make it a different station)
- Start the command running (the separate option at the top of the menu, all by itself.)

The ship will now dock at the first station, have some coffee, then fly to and dock at the second station, go to the bathroom, then fly back... etc.

Here's a tip: most guides will recommend using a M5 for its cheapness, but using one of those will take a little longer, because of their speed. As another commenter has posted, the level-ups take place after ever 2 hours of flight time - so you want the ratio of flight time to docked time to be as great as possible. To that end, a slower ship is better, as is a longer distance between the two waypoint stations. Note however that the flight time is only added after every trip (each way - not each complete cycle) - so if you check the flight time mid-flight, it will not be accurate, it will be out of date by however long the ship has been flying on its current trip. Also, you don't want to stop or restart the command mid-flight unless you have good reason to, as that trip's time will then be discarded and not added.

My usual approach these days (if I'm doing this brute-force way, instead of working some productive training route) is to simply get the freighter the pilot will be using, and get him training in that, usually a route that takes him back and forth across ~3 sectors (pick a safe route for this, away from pirate territories.) This works for me because the training is slightly more efficient and faster than in a faster ship, I don't have superfluous ships that are used only for training, and then I don't have to move the pilot across to his actual ship once he graduates, I simply give him his new orders and put him to work right away - ie. it's quicker AND less hassle (and I'm lazy :P )

Does that mean they still go up levels without actually trading anything or did I read this wrong. Not sure really what CLS2 is really good for, at the moment I use local Traders over a few sectors for each race just to mainly increase my rep. I am now starting to build my first factories mainly dealing with 2nd resources for each race.

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Post by RAVEN.myst » Tue, 31. Oct 17, 20:49

Trevelvis wrote: Does that mean they still go up levels without actually trading anything or did I read this wrong.
Correct. The levelling happens as a result of time spent flying on duty, it's not based on trade volume or profits - about 2 hours per level. This is what makes this a simple, no-fusstraining method, as it isn't slowed down by waiting for trades to take place; on the other hand, it's not a profitable way, so while it's time-efficient, it's not highly productive - but sometimes it's more important to matriculate pilots quickly, so it doesn't matter (particularly in the later game, I tend to simply buy and equip batches of freighters, and start them on the same saved training route, while I get on with other stuff. Six hours later, they're all jump-capable and able to handle up to 15 stops each, which is often good enough, and 4 hours later they have unlimited itinerary capability.) Incidentally, CAG and CLS pilots can switch roles and retain their training - so, you could use the above method to train a CLS2 pilot in this manner, and then assign him to a station as a trained CAG.
Trevelvis wrote: Not sure really what CLS2 is really good for.
CLS2 is one of the options for automated trade. It is the most versatile and the most powerful, but at the cost of the highest micromanagement requirements - CLS2 has little true autonomy, it instead carries out explicit orders in sequence, so it doesn't truly make decisions, but can carry out very detailed instructions. Local and universe traders are basically the other end of the spectrum: total autonomy, but not only are you not required to take control, you actually *cannot* - which means that sometimes they make silly decisions, or (more often) not accomplishing *quite* what you're trying to do (besides making money.) CAG is a very powerful option for factories and docks, balancing high level of control with high level of autonomy. I've found by far the most powerful methodology combines CAG and CLS2, but doing this requires pretty good knowledge and understanding of the economy, ie. a some experience needed. (In fact, CLS2 in general has this experience requirement - however, conversely, it can also be a very good way to learn the economy, in a sort of "dive right into the deep end" sort of way.)
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Post by Timsup2nothin » Tue, 31. Oct 17, 21:43

RAVEN.myst wrote:
Trevelvis wrote: Not sure really what CLS2 is really good for.
CLS2 is one of the options for automated trade. It is the most versatile and the most powerful, but at the cost of the highest micromanagement requirements.
Just want to take a second to distinguish two aspects of management.

CLS 2 has very high set up requirements. It has to be programmed in a very exacting way to do exactly what you want it to do. On the opposite end a Mk3 trader is basically 'press start and off you go.'

However, to me 'management,' micro or otherwise, is an ongoing thing, and in that regard CLS 2 requires none in most cases. Using Mk3 software a trader can get 'stuck' with stuff in the hold that it doesn't know how to get rid of, and either call for help or in even worse cases just haul the stuff endlessly around while using a fraction of its cargo space for making profits.
Trapper Tim's Guide to CLS 2

On Her Majesty's Secret Service-Dead is Dead, and he is DEAD

Not a DiD, so I guess it's a DiDn't, the story of my first try at AP
Part One, in progress

HEY! AP!! That's new!!!

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Post by Triaxx2 » Wed, 1. Nov 17, 03:09

I like to run the ring from Herron's Nebula to Cloudbase Northwest, Ringo Moon, Argon Prime and then back to Herron's. Even in M5's that is a bit of a voyage, and will accrue flight time in pretty short order. The area is heavily patrolled and so pretty safe, so you can have 10 Disco's running race tracks and have max rank pilots in pretty short order.
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Post by RAVEN.myst » Wed, 1. Nov 17, 05:01

Timsup2nothin wrote:CLS 2 has very high set up requirements. It has to be programmed in a very exacting way to do exactly what you want it to do. On the opposite end a Mk3 trader is basically 'press start and off you go.'

However, to me 'management,' micro or otherwise, is an ongoing thing, and in that regard CLS 2 requires none in most cases. Using Mk3 software a trader can get 'stuck' with stuff in the hold that it doesn't know how to get rid of, and either call for help or in even worse cases just haul the stuff endlessly around while using a fraction of its cargo space for making profits.
Hmmm - I actually find CLS2's ongoing maintenance to be quite high (read "prohibitively laborious", when it comes to the late game) in most cases: whenever GoD or the player adds a station, it has to be added to any route it's relevant in (which is why I prefer CAG for mass-marketing, and use CLS2 mostly for specialised roles, and increasingly for purchasing, as I tend to get significantly better results with it in this latter role, while the maintenance overhead goes up slower - fewer suppliers of any ware than there are customers for it; yet even so I have to keep an eye on producers of some wares, to make sure I don't miss the erection of a new SPP somewhere, or a new ore mine in Emperor Mines, or whatever.) Also, as a market shifts (say, for example, as it becomes more saturated with a ware, or conversely if it is stimulated and its consumption of a ware increases), CLS2 routes have to be adjusted (in the first case failure to do so will result in stalled trade, while in the second it will result in lower revenue than could/should be achieved) - this is a LOT of work. Want to move a pilot from one ship to a bigger one? Well, then, you'd better be prepared to redefine all the waypoints to take into account the new capacity (I really wish that the "... max cargo" and "...half cargo" were implicit commands instead of explicit - ie. that it parsed the quantities at run-time instead of at programming time... but then again, interpreted languages usually run slower than compiled ones, so this might have unacceptable impact on performance.)

I found (up until I stopped using them, some years ago, heheheh) that Mk3s were extremely low maintenance, especially in X3AP - truly "fire and forget". Carrying unsold wares happened extremely rarely, and usually as a result of some meddling on my part in any case. Occasionally, I would get impatient with an UT taking an extended break, and I would take matters into my own hands, restarting the command, perhaps even moving the ship first - but even this was very infrequent, and is a helluva lot less work than reworking an entire route's price-point, for instance.

In short, I find that if CLS2 is not maintained on an ongoing basis, the routes tend to get somewhat out of date, and holes can develop, especially if a station gets GoDed out and later replaced - this can happen quite often while the economy is being ramped up by the player. It's rather like driving manual (or "stick", as the Americans call it) - it's more effort and requires more skill than automatic, but grants the driver much finer, subtler control (I personally don't like automatic gearbox cars, I MUCH prefer to drive manual - it's more interesting, more fun. Likewise, I haven't used Mk3 in a long time, I guess for much the same reason - it's too boring and also takes too much out of my hands. :) )
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Trevelvis
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Post by Trevelvis » Fri, 3. Nov 17, 13:10

I have started 5 TS on CLS Training but not sure how they are doing. is there anyway to see how they are doing as they are still just listed as Apprentices. Thanks

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