Guide to Economics; Stations and how to manage them

General discussions about the games by Egosoft including X-BTF, XT, X², X³: Reunion, X³: Terran Conflict and X³: Albion Prelude.

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Snafu_X3
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Post by Snafu_X3 » Sun, 6. Jun 10, 18:55

Ch. 4
Some more terminology; There are two types of loops, open loops and closed loops. The example above is a closed loop; it needs absolutely no resources to maintain production, meaning that no freighters are needed to supply it. An open loop is a string of factories that does require a continual supply of resources to function, maening that at least one freighter is a requirement.
Ch. 2
This is the worst possible way to run a factory. Don't do it unless you have to (i.e. your factory is for some reason in a hot zone and any freighters assigned to it are likely to be blown up, though if you've done this then you probably need to re-read the chapter on factory placement). Do what comes next instead...
I suggest eg rather than ie here. Eg = 'for example'; ie = 'that is'.

Ch. 4 beginning: you define a 'complex' as a group of factories linked together, then give examples of factories not linked (eg spread over several sectors)


There was another thing I spotted in the chapter too, but I can't see it now..
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Post by Triaxx2 » Mon, 7. Jun 10, 12:33

It's the same idea, just with, or without a few complex construction kits. It's like having one complex of XL SPP's in a sector with 400% sun, All the silicon mines in Antigone, and a crystal fab complex somewhere in the middle. They still make a closed loop, but you can't have them all in the same sector.

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Post by Spychotic » Thu, 10. Jun 10, 16:52

O.K, appendices are now going up. First stations will be updated shortly.

I'm looking for someone who can brief me on the Bonus Pack scripts; as I understand it CAG makes a lot of differences to optimum freighter ordering.

Can someone volunteer please?

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Post by dbrowdy » Thu, 10. Jun 10, 16:59

Quick version:

Commercial Agent (CAG) - Will buy or sell as needed. You can set various options like jump drive use or specific wares to focus on/avoid. At level one, he'll only buy.

Internal Logistics (CLS1) - Will redistribute resources from multiple player-owned-stations to multiple player-owned-stations. One SPP and 4 mines? One CLS1 can handle that. 4 mines and 3 fabs? Can handle that too.

External Logistics (CLS2) - Will Buy/sell/load/unload wares from any station/ship to any station/ship. Highly configurable.

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Post by Spychotic » Sun, 13. Jun 10, 10:23

Updated once more. Nearly complete now :)

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trading docks?

Post by kidfusion3000 » Tue, 14. Sep 10, 00:41

while not strictuly factory oriented i think you should discuss trading docks. For example i have some massive complexes which i built for hub missions and then to supply my HQ with building materials. I overbuilt and my hq is well overflowing, i use internal logistics traders to supply my Hq, the hub, and i'm planning some trading docks throughout the x universe because the logistics traders will not trade lower than 5% of the complex's stock this prevents lowering stock to the point of halting higher production. When i can figure how to get my idiot traders to use their jumpdrives i can set these trading docks anywhere and add freighters to sell at best price while keeping my complexes in safe sectors rather than building in vulnerable locations. placing a 30mil trading dock somewhere is less of a risk than building a 100mil complex in a hotspot and having to supply defences.

speaking of which does anyone know why internal resource traders don't use jumpdrives? i know i have to turn on the option but i have and made sure that energy is easily available but it doesn't seem to work.

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Post by Infekted » Tue, 14. Sep 10, 01:23

Both CLS and CAG pilots need to be a certain rank or above to use jumpdrives. Cargo Messenger and Trader respectively. Fastest way to obtain either is to start them for the first time in the trading station in herrons nebula as a CLS pilot, and keep firing them until you get Cargo Messenger. CAG and CLS pilot ranks are interchangeable, so you can always change them to CAGs later, or visa versa as many times as you wish.
There's also a good guide to leveling them up in bulk in the guides sticky at the top of the forum. I'd also bookmark the bonus pack sticky, it has exact details for all the scripts. All the settings etc. Refer to it often :)


I'd also agree with the trading stations thing. Or rather the concept of spreading your wares out a bit. Generally there's a market for almost everything somewhere, so if you find things aren't selling so well in the local area, or you over saturate it, it makes a lot of sense to shift it elsewhere. Although its more of a later game tactic. I personally dont use trade stations as they are generally too small even with a TL feeder.
However say you have a large closed loop complex making a higher end product, say crystals, which is saturating the local market. If you conduct some market research and find another area with high demand for crystal. Build a single crystal fab in the middle of the new area, use CLS to ship in crystals from the large complex and CAG to sell them. You dont even have to supply the new factory, although it obviously makes sense to allow NPC traders to. Its simply a cheap trading base. You do suffer from additional energy costs, but the increased customer base makes up for it.

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Post by Kor'ah » Tue, 14. Sep 10, 01:46

It would seem CAGs have spoiled me. Well, that happened three years ago.

1: Build Complex. Normaly 20-40 end product factories.
2: Set jump range all the way to the max at 50 jumps.
3: Assign 2-5 CAGs depending the volume of wares needed to be bought and/or sold. Configured as per the complex's needs.
4: Turn the CAGs loose and only check up on the operation occasionally.

Nice thing about the auto-jumping factory traders is that the entire galaxy's buyers and sellers for your factory/complex is one jump away. The only difference is the number of e-cells required for the round trip.

Best Buy/Sell scripts lack self-preservation. Loses will be incurred with ships useing these stock scripts. They have an ugly habbit of not looking before they leap.

CAG and CLS will make use of any sensors to avoid trouble. With a good ASAT network ships operating under these scripts can work in Q country with minimal risk to themselves. You will need to destroy the odd Q, or pirate flight, that's hovering over a station waiting for your CAG to undock. Yes, these boys will send you a whine message and wait for you to deal with it before undocking.
[X3] Guide to training CAG and CLS1&2 pilots
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Post by Spychotic » Sun, 3. Oct 10, 19:31

I've done a little more updating on the Guide, as I realised that some of the more technical bits could use some better explaining. Now done.

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Post by Laden Swallow » Sun, 3. Oct 10, 20:57

The updates appear to make the post take up more space than the maximum allowed by a post (your rules are getting snipped at the appendix section).

Something you might want to add to your 'price fixing section' (or as an addendum as it uses the bonus pack):

You can use CLS2 to buy a competitors goods at a certain price and drop them off at your own complex. Since you can set the price to the next price drop below your own complex (some goods with a high variance may move through several credits per price drop, or production cycle - particularly high tech goods), then your complex will always have the 'cheapest' price, even through it is selling for a higher price than before.

This might be most useful if your own production of goods exceeds that of the competitors for instance consider the following case:

You produce 5 times the total ware volume compared with your competitors combined and between you only satisfy demand. Lets suppose the ware in question is energy cells and previously you could sell them for 18 credits. The total ware production would be (for instance) 1000 units per time interval for your competitors and 5000 units per time interval for yourself.

Your profits would be 90000 credits per time interval minus overheads incurred.

Now suppose you set a single CLS2 freighter to buy any wares from your competitors when they hit 18 credits and unload them at your complex. Then you were to increase your price to 19 credits at your complex. This may increase overheads, especially if your CLS2 freighter has to frequently jump (both wages and jump fuel), however:

Your profits would be 95000 credits per time interval for your own production and an additional 1000 credits per time interval minus a slightly increased overhead. At the estimate of 2000 credits per (return) jump this would still give 4000 credits per time interval profit minimum (you may find you can push your sale price higher, or the fixing price lower and still achieve the same net effect). And this is with a low margin good like energy cells (25% variance from average price, compared with for instance sunrise flowers with 75% variance from average price)

At the same time, because you have stopped the competitors prices from dropping too far below your own, you will increase demand for the goods in your complex (all 6000 units now pass through your complexes, rather than only 5000 - the 1000 units that weren't previously would have been driving prices down for your own 5000 units).

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Post by cattafett » Sun, 3. Oct 10, 22:30

liked this guide but just one thing
in chapter 3
Spychotic wrote:Unsurprisingly, the biggest superfreighter is the Mistral Superfreighter. It's also the fastest; double score. As for the other superfreighters, the Caiman SF is next fastest
Mistral Superfreighter top speed 78
Caiman superfreighter XL top speed 89

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Post by Spychotic » Mon, 4. Oct 10, 09:58

Laden Swallow wrote:The updates appear to make the post take up more space than the maximum allowed by a post (your rules are getting snipped at the appendix section).
Ah, thankyou. Hadn't noticed that. Luckily, the bits that have been snipped are all copies of earlier bits. Looks like that post I very sensibly reserved is going to get used for some Appendices now.
Laden Swallow wrote: Something you might want to add to your 'price fixing section' (or as an addendum as it uses the bonus pack):

You can use CLS2 to buy a competitors goods at a certain price and drop them off at your own complex. Since you can set the price to the next price drop below your own complex (some goods with a high variance may move through several credits per price drop, or production cycle - particularly high tech goods), then your complex will always have the 'cheapest' price, even through it is selling for a higher price than before.

This might be most useful if your own production of goods exceeds that of the competitors for instance consider the following case:

You produce 5 times the total ware volume compared with your competitors combined and between you only satisfy demand. Lets suppose the ware in question is energy cells and previously you could sell them for 18 credits. The total ware production would be (for instance) 1000 units per time interval for your competitors and 5000 units per time interval for yourself.

Your profits would be 90000 credits per time interval minus overheads incurred.

Now suppose you set a single CLS2 freighter to buy any wares from your competitors when they hit 18 credits and unload them at your complex. Then you were to increase your price to 19 credits at your complex. This may increase overheads, especially if your CLS2 freighter has to frequently jump (both wages and jump fuel), however:

Your profits would be 95000 credits per time interval for your own production and an additional 1000 credits per time interval minus a slightly increased overhead. At the estimate of 2000 credits per (return) jump this would still give 4000 credits per time interval profit minimum (you may find you can push your sale price higher, or the fixing price lower and still achieve the same net effect). And this is with a low margin good like energy cells (25% variance from average price, compared with for instance sunrise flowers with 75% variance from average price)

At the same time, because you have stopped the competitors prices from dropping too far below your own, you will increase demand for the goods in your complex (all 6000 units now pass through your complexes, rather than only 5000 - the 1000 units that weren't previously would have been driving prices down for your own 5000 units).
This Bonus Pack appendix is going to be huge when we're done with it! No matter, we've got the space. I don't actually use the Bonus Pack yet, just havn't got round to installing and learning it, but thanks to excellent posts like this one quoted I've got a good idea of what can be done and the economic implications thereof, and that's what this Guide is about.
cattafett wrote: liked this guide but just one thing
in chapter 3
Spychotic wrote:Unsurprisingly, the biggest superfreighter is the Mistral Superfreighter. It's also the fastest; double score. As for the other superfreighters, the Caiman SF is next fastest
Mistral Superfreighter top speed 78
Caiman superfreighter XL top speed 89

catta
Not only is a version of the Caiman faster, so is a version of the Demeter. Epic fail! I will update.

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Post by Triaxx2 » Mon, 4. Oct 10, 16:18

I wrote some comments on distribution and collection. Maybe it'll help you out:

Distributed Product Selling for maximum profit

Distributing your products for maximum profit, requires some expenditure of funds, but can quickly earn back the cost of the set up.

Distributed selling requires the Bonus Pack for maximum effectiveness, particularly the CLS, (Commodity Logistics Systems)

Using an energy cell complex as an example, there are two effective methods of distributing the selling of your energy cells. From the complex, CLS1, internal can be used to transport energy cells from the complex itself, to a TL sitting not far from the complex. This serves two purposes. First it increases the storage space of the complex itself, moving large numbers of cells out of the complex. Second, it allows for TL’s to reach the stock without intermediaries. From the primary Distribution TL (DTL), TS’s and TL’s may distribute from it without blocking docking ports from the complex, as well as doing so by distributing out of the primary range of the station.

From the DTL, the Product Transports (PT)’s, should move cells to distant locations, such as TL’s patrolling through industrial blocks, such as (Home of Light, Red Light, Cloudbase Southwest, and Ore Belt.), using the multi-sector patrols. These should have homebased TS’s selling within the area of patrol. In areas with local military patrols, these TL’s are relatively safe, and do not need heavy escort.

For areas that require only small numbers of energy cells, but in constant supply, TL’s with larger hangars of Falcon Haulers or other high cargo space fighters, should be used from a TL patrolling only in that sector. TS’s will probably over supply, and cost profits.

The second method, also involves a Distribution TL, but typically only uses a single TL. Instead after the initial transportation to the TL, TS’s distribute the energy cells, or other product to Equipment Docks, or Trading stations, from which CAG’s or LT’s are based. A less effective method than that with TL’s, but the infinitely greater storage capacity of stations means less management once the selling loop is initiated.

Any resource can be distributed this way, though none are required by all races like energy cells, but this does allow for transportation of wares to far flung destinations of supply, without building entirely new complexes that must be protected. Since a self-sufficient complex requires no further intervention, this method of supply can be set up before the complex is built, and simply engaged from out of sector once the complex is completed.

Uses for this method include: Producing food in the safe eastern sectors, and transporting it to the much more dangerous, but more profitable western sectors. Feeding factories that cannot be purchased by the player, such as Terran weapon factories, and Tractor Beam factories. Producing resources not produced by player factories, or complexes, or which are not needed in large quantities, with any constancy.

A modified version of this may be used to ensure resupply for combat fleets.

Distributed Product collection for efficiency of transfer

This method actually works opposite to the above method. Once the factories producing the needed product are located, TS’s are given orders to purchase all available product, and pass it to a Collection TL (CTL), from this central collection point, either within each sector, or in a central location for multiple sectors, Such as Argon Prime for Home of Light, Red Light, Ringo Moon, Cloudbase Northwest, Herron’s Nebula, The Hole, and The Wall. However, the flaw is that disparate resources mean that there’s no easy method to transfer resources to a central point. CLS works, but the variety of resources means that only highly trained CLS pilots can move enough different types to be worth the effort to transfer this way. An alternate method is to use a TS SF, as an end point for each resource, and other TS’s to transfer to the next link. A second alternative is to use a Trading Station, or Equipment Dock as a Collection point, and then TS’s, or TL’s to transfer from those stations, to the next link.

Equipment Dock’s are useful because they can be directly used as a transfer point for TL’s, and have docking spaces for TS’s transferring cargo. Trading stations can have not only TS’s transferring goods off the station, but have an endless docking capacity for fighters, both to run out and fetch the necessary materials, and also defend the station in case of attack.

The next link in the chain, depending on the purpose of resource collection should either be an equipment dock, or TL. Equipment docks are excellent for equipping capital ships with weapons, while TL’s are capable of equipping the entire fleet with the Resupply Command.

Equipment docks are excellent end points in a supply chain, because they can dock and fill TL’s, which can then transfer to fleets in the field, as well as refueling them for the trip. TL’s are a less optimal choice, simply because they have less storage space than stations, but they also are mobile and can be moved out of danger should it appear, unlike Equipment Docks which remain in place and continue to attract TS’s attempting to bring supplies, necessitating immediate action to protect it and the investment it represents.

For those areas of the universe where dangers are rampant, and protection is at a premium, M6’s make good substitutes for TS’s with a combination of speed, firepower and defensive armament. The trade-off is more trips made because of a smaller cargo hold. Since the M6’s with the largest holds are also the most combat powerful, the trade-off must be carefully weighed, trade safety vs. number of trips vs. total cargo moved.

Distributed product transfer for open complex resource efficiency

Again the method maybe adapted to another use, this one for manipulating products from multiple sources. Used correctly, this allows for complexes to be supplied across gates, giving the freedom to construct complexes normally limited by lag in ways capable of reducing lag.

For example, harnessing the Ore and Silicon asteroids of Antigone Memorial, and connecting them into a complex, or pair of complexes, and using the Distribution transfer system to move the Silicon to a Crystal Fabrication Complex, and the resulting Crystals to a Solar Power Plant complex and then energy cells back to the Silicon Mine Complex. In short, an open complex that is still self-sufficient.

However more than simply being able to supply from a single complex, each step can be supplied from multiple complexes. So multiple Silicon Complexes may supply a single Crystal Complex, or several Crystal Complexes from multiple Silicon sources. Transporting these materials directly to the complexes may not be the best course of action, and so gathering the silicon or crystals into a single TL, and transporting it with TL’s can be more efficient than even super freighters. This prevents clogging of both the distribution chain and the space lanes. TL’s moving goods without a jump drive, even those not moving through hostile sectors, such as from Antigone Memorial to Ore Belt, must be escorted at all times. Even those with jump drives should have homebased fighter protection.

The first stage of the collection process must be the setting of two central collection hub TL’s. Each complex must have two TL’s, one for incoming energy cells, one for outgoing products. Set two TS’s from each TL to collect resources. The out going chain and incoming chain may be linked, or remain unlinked depending on preference. An incoming TL may take away product to the next link in the chain. As CLS pilots gain experience, they may take over more of the chain, though this may slow production and lower efficiency. Outgoing product TL’s collect from the first link, and drop product to the second link of the chain. Again, they may take outgoing products to the next link, or simply return for more. A single TL may also be used to generate a triangular trade run, consisting of incoming energy, outgoing product to another link closer to the power source, and then a trip back with incoming energy.

The second link in the chain must have three TL’s, one for incoming product, one for out going product, and one for energy. The Energy TL requires only one TS, since it is an important, but not vital resource and because production can be stopped for lack of other resources as well.

The final link in the chain needs only two TL’s, one for incoming product, one for outgoing energy.

Outgoing products may be distributed as described above to multiple purchasers, as well as being fed back into the production chain. Using multiple production complexes provides valuable flow control, keeping control in your hands, and allowing you to siphon excess product for sale to outside buyers, or to draw in outside products to cover any gaps in supply. Combining this with the above methods gains you the ability to command and control a huge empire with a minimum of management.

Exceptional uses for this method include feeding oversized complexes without further increasing lag, by distributing the food production and energy generation.

Working with all three strategies you can take control of the entire economy, without saturating it beyond what it can hold without breaking.

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Post by Infekted » Mon, 4. Oct 10, 16:32

Wow thats a lot to take in... But some good stuff there.

What would make my X3 life complete, would be being able to run CAG in ships homebased to a TL. Basically use the TL as a mini trade station.

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Post by Triaxx2 » Mon, 4. Oct 10, 18:13

Well, that's the reason for the TL's as bases, so they're moving to continually adjust how far the sellers are going for those best sales. Or you can use CLS to pre-select destinations and they'll only sell at high prices. Requires some fine tuning, but can be done.

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Post by Infekted » Mon, 4. Oct 10, 19:15

Well yes, with a lot of messing around you could use CLS to achieve an effect somewhat similar.
But it'd be no where near as good as an intelligent "best" buyer/seller. There is a script which allows best buy/sell TS's to operate from a TL. I like to use it extensively in my modded game. CAG would be much better tho.

WTB CAG2 :D

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Post by Twest09 » Tue, 5. Oct 10, 05:36

Infekted wrote:Wow thats a lot to take in... But some good stuff there.

What would make my X3 life complete, would be being able to run CAG in ships homebased to a TL. Basically use the TL as a mini trade station.
EDTI: Disregard the following comment made by me. I went back and investigated further and discovered that it is a bug. The M6, TM, TP, TS, and M7 classes were given an option to dock but they just ended up moving to position of the Atmo and then sitting there. I was confused because it was shown as a viable dock for an M6 under the Navigation Menu's "Dock At" command.

[qoute=twest09]Blah.....[/quote]

To add something useful! Don't forget the Falcon Hauler, it still has XL cargo capability. You can CLS him but not CAG.... since you can't add a ware list to a TL.
Last edited by Twest09 on Tue, 5. Oct 10, 06:00, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Catra » Tue, 5. Oct 10, 05:52

you cant actually dock at the lifter, nonfighter ships will just idle near it.

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Post by Eisenkalle » Sat, 20. Nov 10, 17:54

*Sorry for bumping* (down to page 17)

Actually I stumbled upon this thread while looking for something else, but I like it. From my point of view it is a very useful guide, for beginners and also for experts.

You wrote a great deal about the basic economic principles (microeconomics, etc.) regarding X3TC. Nearly all of the principles you described are quite familiar to me and my gaming style. Most of the descriptions fit my intuition of commerce&industry related behaviour. For example buy low, sell high or look for (high) supply of a certain good and (high) demand for a certain good in certain sector and simply fill the gap (EC, food, minerals, etc.).

There is one thing I want to complement:
Spychotic wrote:
Chapter 3; Freighters and salesmen

This section is all about how to choose a fleet of transporters.

The choice of freighter for a given task can make or break your factory. The principle tradeoff that has to be made is speed vs. cargo capacity.

Generally, faster transporters tend to be smaller, whilst slower transporters tend to be bigger.

Rule coming up;

Rule No. 3; Speed is more important than cargo capacity in a freighter.
OK for most of the time a faster TS is more handy and prefered, rather than a slow Tanker/Superfreighter.

There are some exceptions. After several time of observation I tend to use at least one or two bulk freighters (namely - Mistral Superfreighter). Bulk goods, from my point of view, are XL wares. Namely bulk goods are ore, silicon and (not XL but "bulk") energy cells.

For example, I run a small satellite complex in Paranid Prime (5xNavSat + 5x AdvSat). I added a (small) Mistral for each needed ware (silicon, maja and energy cells). I let it be and went my ways. Later on I made a routine check of my assets and saw a dried out stock of energy cells and silicon (maybe of my "buy" pricing, but the TS had the chance to get the needed wares around my own suppliers, like mines or SPPs, in neighbouring Argon/Paranid sectors). My observation was, that especially the bulk wares were a problem, because of the lack of bulk room in the (small) Mistrals. They were on the run, got the goods, but it was not enough to feed the production cycle long enough or build up stocks. OK I could have added a second or third (small) Mistral, but I decided to switch the silicon/ec TS from (small) Mistrals to Mistrals SF. One Mistral SF for energy cells, one for silicon. They mostly fetch a good price below average prices. I set energy cells to max. 14 Credits and silicon to max. 330 Credits. Maja never was a problem, just around the corner was enough for min. 9 Credits. my intention was to reduce tours and deliver alot mor ressources at the same time for an acceptable price. THough I choose the Mistral SF.

Another example is a cahoona complex I set up in "the Wall" (6xL without ranches, bought extern). I used four Mistrals for buying EC (max. 14 Credits@6 sectors). I stopped them and started using one Mistral SF, later added a second. Works fine, stock is 3/4+ full of energy cells.

In general I simply used Mistrals for everything. After several testruns I decided to devide bulk goods (EC/minerals only!) from the other needed ressources for production and use (depending on size of the complex) Superfreighters exclusivly only for bulk goods and normal TS for the other goods (buy&sell).

This idea has two advantages. First it saves you at least 1-2 ships. As a sidenote: Imho money DOES count in the beginning of the game, without doing combat missions, or avoiding them (like I do, keeping comabt rank low). Second, even if the SF are slower (time is money!), they mostly fetch a good price, with double or triple the amount of goods, a common TS can hold. This also reduces tours and conserves more docking ports at the complex or (single) station(s) and is a lot easier to organize within your asset list.

Many thanks again for your fantastic piece of work. It is really worth reading the full course. Since the information you provide is especially good edited, so everyone can understand it and than enjoy the practical use.
Last edited by Eisenkalle on Sat, 20. Nov 10, 21:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Spychotic » Sat, 20. Nov 10, 19:15

There's an unwritten Forum rule that says that Guides and Walkthroughs are considered permanently active and hence the whole idea of necromancy is sort of totally invalidated. This is especially true of Guides like this one that have been included in the Ultimate X Resource. Suggest you check it out first if you're looking for anything. So do not hesitate to post here, regardless of the time it's been since the last post.

As for the point you make on exceptions to Rule 3; yes. I'm fully aware and was trying to keep it fairly simple. Nevertheless, thanks for pointing it out, as I'm always looking to expand the content and I agree that there's something useful to be said here that isn't said. Like you say, more experienced hands can also benefit.

Updated.

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Struggling with a plotline? Spike's Walkthroughs are your answer!

Whether you're building your first factory or a trading empire, this station management guide was made just for you.

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