Guide to Economics; Stations and how to manage them

General discussions about the games by Egosoft including X-BTF, XT, X², X³: Reunion, X³: Terran Conflict and X³: Albion Prelude.

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Spychotic
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Post by Spychotic » Thu, 3. Jun 10, 18:02

Thanks for the spot, Triaxx2.

And thanks to imperium3 for the info on the light fighters; it never occurred to me that ships with cargo bays that small would make good freighters, I always use TSs regardless of application (unless I'm using a trading station, in which case I'll use fighters because you can dock an infinite number of them, but I use M3s). When you have the amount of dosh I've got, you go for the easy option; bulk buying TSs 20 at a time.

As for the 'no freighters being the worst way' argument; I stand by it. Yes, in some cases having no freighters at all is the most convenient way but this is in terms of profit, not in terms of convenience. I'll edit to make that clear. Thanks for pointing it out though; I don't have freighters running amok through hostile space.

Also, jsut realised that I forgot about M6s as freighters. If you need a freighter that WILL reach its destination, use a Springblossom with PSSC in the turrets... :wink:

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Post by festa_freak » Thu, 3. Jun 10, 22:24

A couple months ago when I was planning on making a station I tried to find a guide like this but all I found were complex this and calculator that. This fills the gap in quite nicely.

Thankfully, the factories I made are doing very well. Although they did turn into complexes albeit open loops just requiring E-cells. A Nostrop factory in profit center alpha and an ore complex in aladna hill have been working very well.

Now that I think about it, the aladna hill ore complex isn't in the best spot. I think at the time I chose the highest value asteroids I could find. Awww well, I just have the jump distance set high. I'm still making money, so it's all good.

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mr.WHO
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Post by mr.WHO » Thu, 3. Jun 10, 23:02

I want to ask about the use of regular M6, because since X-TC and introduction of M6M, they are preatty useless in combat. How do they fare as armed and armoured freighters? Which one is good and which is bad?

Springblossom is a pain to arm in bigger quatities.

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Post by tommyth3cat » Fri, 4. Jun 10, 00:20

Cool this will be helpful once I make enough to try my hand at some stations.

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imperium3
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Post by imperium3 » Fri, 4. Jun 10, 00:35

mr.WHO wrote:I want to ask about the use of regular M6, because since X-TC and introduction of M6M, they are preatty useless in combat. How do they fare as armed and armoured freighters? Which one is good and which is bad?

Springblossom is a pain to arm in bigger quatities.
I'm not convinced of the merits of using M6 as freighters at all. None of them apart from Springblossom and Hyperion (and conceivably Osprey and Hydra) have anywhere near as much cargo as a TS, they don't (except Springy) have much of a speed advantage, and they are all orders of magnitude more expensive.

Sure, they are tougher. But is that really relevant? If your transports have to travel through dangerous sectors, then it would be in any case cheaper to buy them jumpdrives, than investing large piles of money in M6s, and likely having to do the same again when they get destroyed. And they will get destroyed, because even an M6 is vulnerable to the vagaries of OOS combat, or simply a wandering Q/Brigantine.

So the only real reason for using M6s as freighters, in my opinion, is that (esp for Hyperion which is sexxxxy) they do look very cool. By which time, you will probably be rich enough that you don't really need this guide anyway.

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Spychotic
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Post by Spychotic » Fri, 4. Jun 10, 00:53

mr.WHO wrote:I want to ask about the use of regular M6, because since X-TC and introduction of M6M, they are preatty useless in combat. How do they fare as armed and armoured freighters? Which one is good and which is bad?

Springblossom is a pain to arm in bigger quatities.
Damn right!

I'm not too hot on using M6s as freighters; I have a couple of Springblossom sector traders, but nothing else. However, as per your request, I've looked up x3tc.ru and had a look at the various stats;

Link to x3tc.ru

As you can see (I hope!), I have listed them by cargobay. The Hyperion is by far the biggest but that's even harder to get you mitts on than the Springy, which ranks second.

There's an interesting and totally unexpected result here; the Hydra. It's one of the biggest and fastest M6s, with 1500 cargobay capacity and 147m/s speed. It mounts 600MJ of shielding which no fighter swarm is going to break in a hurry, and can be loaded with CIG in the main gun slots to give it some fightback power. It is also about half the price of the average M6, at only (!) 8.5 million for the hull instead of the more usual 15 million. Reason why is obvious; only one gun in one turret. But if it's not being used in a combat role, that doesn't matter.

I must admit surprise; the Hydra, and particularly the Heavy Hydra, are knocked quite hard most of the time. I think we've just stumbled upon the one single thing that it is actually good for!

I can see why it isn't often used though. Equipping a Hydra with 4 CIGs (enough; you don't need a full bank and they eat into cargobay anyway) and the shields in addition to buying the hull is going to set you back 11 million Cr and leave you with only 1325 cargo units intact. That's an O.K. freighter given the fact that the only thing likely to take it down is a Q, but 11M is a LOT of cash.

And underlines the problem with corvettes as freighters; you could buy an entire factory loop INCLUDING TS-class freighters for 11M. It's only really any good for very valuable cargo that you simply cannot afford to lose. And there ain't much of that around.

The rest of them are even more expensive and not so good as freighters. So the Hydra is really the only option if you're not going Springblossom. Niche applications, but using it as a mainstream freighter is just not sensible. It's cheaper to just buy hoardes of TS class ships.

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Post by dbrowdy » Fri, 4. Jun 10, 03:20

I'd like to see something on a more advanced topic, something (I believe) Kor'ah mentioned: something I call distributed complexes. Essentially having complementary open-loop complexes in different sectors with CLS1 ships keeping things moving.

Example: A bunch of silicon mines in Ore Belt, with crystal and food fabs attached. An energy plant in Argon Prime that feeds off crystals from Ore Belt, thus giving you a better market for the energy without having to jump as far as if the energy was being made in Ore Belt too. I mean, like a 2j radius from AP is a much better market than a 4j radius from OB to cover the same sectors.

Example 2: Same crystal plex in Ore Belt, but shield/arms plex in AP with SPP's being fed from OB. Or break the food off into HoL to feed both plexes. Etc.

Okay, not a great examples as I'm still mulling over the best uses for this kind of distributed plex. Kor'ah mentioned that crystals have a good volume:energy ratio, better than energy cells, so it's more efficient to haul those around than the actual cells. He also mentioned it's good for getting all your eggs out of one basket.

Mmmmm...advanced topics.....
:D

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Spychotic
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Post by Spychotic » Fri, 4. Jun 10, 03:31

I actually use such complexes myself, that sort of thing will appear in the chapter currently being written. However, I don't use bonus pack stuff yet. Need to get to grips with it I think, though I'll keep the vanilla options for anyone who (for whatever reason) hasn't installed the Bonus Pack (like me :wink:)

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Post by RyuKazuha » Fri, 4. Jun 10, 11:59

If it comes to advanced strategies, I'd also recommend what I call Sell High Buy Low Supply System (SHBL-S²).

It's basically a closed loop of Stations not fully complexed, wich sells intermediates to the AI and buys them from their stations.

E.g.:

Power Circle is a good supplier for E-Cells. A closed Loop has, of course, it's own SSP producing these. However instead of shipping the E-Cells to the next Loop Factory, the SSP sells off its E-Cells via a "sell at highest price"-Freighter (or several), while the next factory buys them with a "buy at lowest price"-Freighter, increasing the profit well above that of a hermetic (read non-leaking) loop.
Since the maximum price for buying and the minimum for selling match each other, the SSP will still supply the next factory if no better opportunities are around.

This works the best, of course, if your customer is close to the AI-Supply, while your supply is closer to the AI-customers.

To give a special example:

Closed E-Cell Loop in Herron's Nebula
Open Tech Loop in Power Circle (Missile or whatever, no own energy-supply)

Together they'd form a single closed Tech-Loop. However the E-C-Loop actively distributes Cells for at least 15 Credits, while the Tech-Loop constantly buys E-Cells for a maximum of 15 Credits.

Set up in one of my games, the Tech Loop constantly feeds on E-Cells bought for ~13 Credits, while the E-Cell Loop constantly feeds E-Cells for ~16 Cr into Herron's Nebula's Economy, netting another 3 Credits of Profit for every single E-Cell wich would normally just be consumed.

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Spychotic
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Post by Spychotic » Sun, 6. Jun 10, 03:27

Dear all,

I've now finished the bulk of the economic section of the Guide. The only bit left to go is the factory defence bit.

I'd like comments on everything that has been written so far; I know that it's a long guide but if it is to be included in the Superbox in less than two weeks then it needs some serious attention from soeone who hasn't been staring at it for ever!

Regards to all,

Spike
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Post by Deadbeat_Spinn » Sun, 6. Jun 10, 03:51

I can act as an editor/proof reader if you want Spike.

I know I haven't got back to you on the Chapter 1 stuff but work's been a nightmare of late as well as a severe lack of sleep over the past few weeks.

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Post by RyuKazuha » Sun, 6. Jun 10, 09:53

False spelling found or suspected by me:

frighters -> freighters

stright -> straight

distributers -> distributors

hoarde -> hoard/horde

maening -> meaning

seperate -> separate

Something you did that persistent I don't know if I'm to address it as a non native speaker is the skipped space in "cargo bay" and "jump drive".

Regarding content it's flawless as far as I can tell.

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Post by Triaxx2 » Sun, 6. Jun 10, 13:19

a ship can only carry a good if it is of an equal or smaller cargo class.
I think you meant this one to be 'equal or larger'.

Only mistake I noticed in an otherwise amazing guide. Nice work. Two thumbs up.

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Spychotic
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Post by Spychotic » Sun, 6. Jun 10, 14:10

Thanks fellas, I've fixed the spelling errors and cleared up the cargo container class issue.

If spelling and grammar errors are all that's in there, then it's bloody good for a first try! Any newbs out there who can pick some faults of communication, or experienced guys who can pick content faults with it?

Spike
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Post by TBV » Sun, 6. Jun 10, 16:37

Spychotic wrote:If your stations are in Pirate or Xenon sectors, then you've already disregarded most of what this says!
Of course, if you're mates with the Pirates, they can provide a fair amount of security.

Check this out That's an awful lot of Pirate hardware.

I just hope relations don't sour, or my complex wont last long.

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Post by Snafu_X3 » Sun, 6. Jun 10, 18:55

Ch. 4
Some more terminology; There are two types of loops, open loops and closed loops. The example above is a closed loop; it needs absolutely no resources to maintain production, meaning that no freighters are needed to supply it. An open loop is a string of factories that does require a continual supply of resources to function, maening that at least one freighter is a requirement.
Ch. 2
This is the worst possible way to run a factory. Don't do it unless you have to (i.e. your factory is for some reason in a hot zone and any freighters assigned to it are likely to be blown up, though if you've done this then you probably need to re-read the chapter on factory placement). Do what comes next instead...
I suggest eg rather than ie here. Eg = 'for example'; ie = 'that is'.

Ch. 4 beginning: you define a 'complex' as a group of factories linked together, then give examples of factories not linked (eg spread over several sectors)


There was another thing I spotted in the chapter too, but I can't see it now..
Wiki X:R 1st Tit capping
Wiki X3:TC vanilla: Guide to generic missions, Guide to finding & capping Aran
Never played AP; all X3 advice is based on vanilla+bonus pack TC or before: AP has not changed much WRT general advice.

I know how to spell teladiuminumiumium, I just don't know when to stop!

Dom (Wiki Moderator) 8-) DxDiag

Triaxx2
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Post by Triaxx2 » Mon, 7. Jun 10, 12:33

It's the same idea, just with, or without a few complex construction kits. It's like having one complex of XL SPP's in a sector with 400% sun, All the silicon mines in Antigone, and a crystal fab complex somewhere in the middle. They still make a closed loop, but you can't have them all in the same sector.

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Spychotic
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Post by Spychotic » Thu, 10. Jun 10, 16:52

O.K, appendices are now going up. First stations will be updated shortly.

I'm looking for someone who can brief me on the Bonus Pack scripts; as I understand it CAG makes a lot of differences to optimum freighter ordering.

Can someone volunteer please?

Spike
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Post by dbrowdy » Thu, 10. Jun 10, 16:59

Quick version:

Commercial Agent (CAG) - Will buy or sell as needed. You can set various options like jump drive use or specific wares to focus on/avoid. At level one, he'll only buy.

Internal Logistics (CLS1) - Will redistribute resources from multiple player-owned-stations to multiple player-owned-stations. One SPP and 4 mines? One CLS1 can handle that. 4 mines and 3 fabs? Can handle that too.

External Logistics (CLS2) - Will Buy/sell/load/unload wares from any station/ship to any station/ship. Highly configurable.

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Spychotic
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Post by Spychotic » Sun, 13. Jun 10, 10:23

Updated once more. Nearly complete now :)

Spike
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