TD's Guide to the World of Solar Power Plants! -1.4 Update-

General discussions about the games by Egosoft including X-BTF, XT, X², X³: Reunion, X³: Terran Conflict and X³: Albion Prelude.

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harag9
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Post by harag9 » Sat, 14. Feb 04, 06:34

Q: Alright then, how about we just make SPPs less profitable? That should fix it!

A: No, as that’s only half of the problem. SPPs profits should be much lower, but you can’t ignore that all other factories make barely anything. A wheat farm costs 779,000 credits, which is ridiculous, because it can only make a maximum profit of 11,000 credits an hour.
TD can you display the formula for calculating the 11k per hour? I believe its nearer to 18k

Produces 10 Wheat per minute
Uses 15 ECs per minute

Over one hour
600 Wheat
900 ECs


sell 600 wheat at 46

Income = 27600 (46*600)
Cost of ECs = 8100 (9 each)

profit = 19500 (27600-8100)


This IMHO is 8500 more than what you put.

Please if I'm wrong then explain how you come to 11k

Thanks

Al
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-TD-13-
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Post by -TD-13- » Sat, 14. Feb 04, 06:55

harag9 wrote:
Q: Alright then, how about we just make SPPs less profitable? That should fix it!

A: No, as that’s only half of the problem. SPPs profits should be much lower, but you can’t ignore that all other factories make barely anything. A wheat farm costs 779,000 credits, which is ridiculous, because it can only make a maximum profit of 11,000 credits an hour.
TD can you display the formula for calculating the 11k per hour? I believe its nearer to 18k

Produces 10 Wheat per minute
Uses 15 ECs per minute
Over one hour
600 Wheat
900 ECs

sell 600 wheat at 46

Income = 27600 (46*600)
Cost of ECs = 8100 (9 each)
profit = 19500 (27600-8100)

This IMHO is 8500 more than what you put.

Please if I'm wrong then explain how you come to 11k

Thanks

Al
Yep, sorry about that, wrote it down correct, but thought it was 11k from memory. It's now corrected in the original post and anywhere else I have posted this number. :)

Sorry 'bout the goof up. :shock:

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wormer311
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Post by wormer311 » Sat, 14. Feb 04, 09:01

Q: So what kind of choice does that leave players?

A: Not much. By having SPPs make the most money and having all other factories make the same lousy profit, the player is basically forced to take the same path and make the same choices as every one else playing the game. The freedom of enterprise is completely taken away, even though this game is all about freedom and economics. You’re basically always stuck building a SPP empire. Well unless you go into manual minning or capturing for a living, and never build a factory.
I'm sorry but ...............your just plain WRONG. I just don't understand why you say " You’re basically always stuck building a SPP empire".
I could probally write 50 things on why you are wrong and spreading false information about this but i'll just say one. I have 83 factories and 12 of them are SPP's. I'm constantly withdrawing money from every single factory I own........and I have a lot of fun supplying the galaxy with goods other than energy.




As for other good locations for SPP's.....How could you possibly miss Akeela's Beacon? It's 450 sunlight! :D I have 6 Mantas sellling energy and they can't sell it fast enough. ..........nuff said
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harag9
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Post by harag9 » Sat, 14. Feb 04, 15:41

Yep, sorry about that, wrote it down correct, but thought it was 11k from memory. It's now corrected in the original post and anywhere else I have posted this number.
IIRC wasn't it 11k in X-Tension ? not ure since I've not played that for ages.

Al.
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AI for your every need. Station computers to advanced combat aids, AIML & X²ScE

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Dscaper
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Post by Dscaper » Sat, 14. Feb 04, 15:59

wormer311 wrote:As for other good locations for SPP's.....How could you possibly miss Akeela's Beacon? It's 450 sunlight! :D I have 6 Mantas sellling energy and they can't sell it fast enough. ..........nuff said
Doesn't the above statement advocate the usage of SPP's to make money? I'd put fairly good money on the fact that those 6 mantas are propbably making money faster than any other factory you own. :)
When I find that pesky Suzy, I'm gonna stick her in an air lock, tell her to wave at the cameras, and then lob her out into space so that the pirates nearby can have her, then tell the salesman in the... toy shop... that I've 1.. 9.. 2... 2... 'ed her.

-TD-13-
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Post by -TD-13- » Sat, 14. Feb 04, 19:50

wormer311 wrote:
Q: So what kind of choice does that leave players?

A: Not much. By having SPPs make the most money and having all other factories make the same lousy profit, the player is basically forced to take the same path and make the same choices as every one else playing the game. The freedom of enterprise is completely taken away, even though this game is all about freedom and economics. You’re basically always stuck building a SPP empire. Well unless you go into manual minning or capturing for a living, and never build a factory.
I'm sorry but ...............your just plain WRONG. I just don't understand why you say " You’re basically always stuck building a SPP empire".
I could probally write 50 things on why you are wrong and spreading false information about this but i'll just say one. I have 83 factories and 12 of them are SPP's. I'm constantly withdrawing money from every single factory I own........and I have a lot of fun supplying the galaxy with goods other than energy.




As for other good locations for SPP's.....How could you possibly miss Akeela's Beacon? It's 450 sunlight! :D I have 6 Mantas sellling energy and they can't sell it fast enough. ..........nuff said
Well, I thought this might ruffle a few new feathers, even though it's the truth, but I really wasn't looking for another debate on this topic. How X2's economy works has been disscused countless times through plently of topics.... this is a well known fact.

Look, read pacific_wings post again. You may be withdrawing cash from those factories, but the initial cost, resources needed, and cycle time all limit how much you make with every factory. Sure, you may have made 100,000 with your Wheat farm, but remember that it has taken you 7 hours to do so, and that you need to keep this pace up for another 60 hours in order to make any real profit.

Because the profit margins of all of the factories is basically the opposite of the pyramid in the manual, it heavly limits the player's choices on good economical situations.

Now, you still have the freedom of choice to build wheat farms and ore mines and all the other factories. However, if your baseing your choice on smart economic decisions, and you want to make good money then SPPs are the way to go.

SPPs can make the most money, by a long shot.
SPPs can make the most money in the shortest amount of time, by a long shot.
SPPs can pay their initial costs off in the least amount of time, by a long shot.
SPPs are one of the cheapest factories you can buy.
SPPs only really need one transport, lower risk costs.
SPPs have the largest market to sell to, by a long shot.
SPPs resources always sell at a steady 1684cr, making SPPs more profitable, once again, by a long shot. :)

This game is about thinking and doing your best to make money. If you are a good opportunist and are out to make money, you will use SPPs. The player has no choice in what he can excell at to make decent money. The only way of making good money is using SPPs, as all other factories make the same, terrible profit and take hours and hours to pay off.

Now, with that in mind, ask yourself this. Would you want to work as an employee at a local fast food restaurant, or for a company that will pay you 100,000 a year, give you job security, and allow for the opportunity of pay raises and promotion? You have the choice to work at the fast food restaurant, but is it a good economical choice to do so? :)

I think what you are doing is just looking at supply and demand and thinking "Where there is a demand, there is money to be made!". In X2's current economic model, this isn't the case. Although supply and demand are a big part of the economy, it is not the entire picture.
If you're a smart player, and an opportunist, then you will end up using SPPs at the forefront of your empire.

The best advice I can give you is read pacific_wing's quote again, and check these topics for more info:
X2's broken Economy
Giskard's Factory Information (the first debate)

Oh, and as for Akeelas beacon, I'll check into it.
By the way.... it's not a very good idea to have 6 manta's selling your energy.... your actually making a lot less then what you think you are making. A lot less. For more info on 450% sunlight and why having multiple selling ships is a bad idea, check out the original post. :)

Gaderath
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Post by Gaderath » Sat, 14. Feb 04, 19:54

i have never heard anyone mention this as a good SPP location, but it earns more than my kingdom end SPP. i loose a manta every so often, but it still makes more money than many other places i have tried. Siezewell in Teladi space.if i leave the game run for a few hours, the Siezewell SPP usually has 50-100k MORE than my kingdom end. however, in the course of over a week of game time, i have lost mantas twice, usually by khaak M3s in spaceweed drift. but i figure, even if i play to replace these mantas, i am still making as much as in kingdom end, or close to it.

Darshu
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Post by Darshu » Sat, 14. Feb 04, 20:02

There is just one flaw in your reasoning TD, and that's cost vs. convenience.

I am talking specifically about equipping ships. Lets say you have a brand new Argon Titan.

To fully equip it with PPCs, you need 9 GPPC, 6 BPPC, and 3 APPC.

Now seeing as how ALL high end weapon fabs seem to only be able to stock between 2 and 4 of the specific weapon at ANY time, and these stock usually are zero, is it wrong to setup a chain for these types of wares so that the convenience of being able to buy a new ship, then immediately equip it without searching 100 sectors looking for the last weapon?

I mean, it takes 20 hours to construct a GPPC! If you rely on NPC weapon fabs, that's 180 hours of gametime just to get the main weapons online. And that's IF you can get the NPC fabs to ever have any stock.

So while "secondary resource" fabs are pretty useless, high end finished fabs seem to be very useful. USEFUL being the key word. They may never make any profit, but if you can get free equipment, what's the difference?

So as an example, you could have a Drone fab pumping out drones to stick on your TPs, a 25MW shield fab for continually upgrading your Manta S to full shielding, and so on and so forth.

-TD-13-
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Post by -TD-13- » Sat, 14. Feb 04, 20:11

*Updated*

New Solar Power Plant locations have been added, including Seizewell! I'm going to look at Akeela's Beacon next.


Happy Profitsss! :D

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Dscaper
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Post by Dscaper » Sat, 14. Feb 04, 20:45

Darshu wrote:There is just one flaw in your reasoning TD, and that's cost vs. convenience.
Not quite sure if it's a flaw... it's what Egosoft and other software houses would call a "feature". ;)

Both of you are right, it's just that the end results that you're providing are both different. TD is advocating the usage of SPP's for returning cash at the fastest possible rate, whilst you're taking the route of relaying the SPP for Taiho Positronic Innovations. *cough* honestly *cough* ;)

What you are bringing into question is what do you do with all the money that SPPs can raise. Slightly different ending, but equally (if not more so) valid and correct.

We all have to face the fact that people will want to play X2 in different ways. Some people will think short-term and raid the SPPs to fill their coffers, whilst some will look long-term and use SPPs to fill the gaps in their equipment racks.

In effect, this thread needs glueing together with the Advanced Factory Management thread (by Reven I believe), then it would give players both a good option for getting some cash together, whilst at the same time teaching them to look long-term at where they want to be. :)
When I find that pesky Suzy, I'm gonna stick her in an air lock, tell her to wave at the cameras, and then lob her out into space so that the pirates nearby can have her, then tell the salesman in the... toy shop... that I've 1.. 9.. 2... 2... 'ed her.

IvanT
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Post by IvanT » Sat, 14. Feb 04, 21:00

Just wanted to say a big Thanks for that tutorial., will help a lot of people., and even give some of us seasoned vets an idea or two! ;)

Keep it up.!
-Ivan
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IvanT
Author/Scriptwriter

Xocyll
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Post by Xocyll » Sat, 14. Feb 04, 21:31

wormer311 wrote:
Q: So what kind of choice does that leave players?

A: Not much. By having SPPs make the most money and having all other factories make the same lousy profit, the player is basically forced to take the same path and make the same choices as every one else playing the game. The freedom of enterprise is completely taken away, even though this game is all about freedom and economics. You’re basically always stuck building a SPP empire. Well unless you go into manual minning or capturing for a living, and never build a factory.
I'm sorry but ...............your just plain WRONG. I just don't understand why you say " You’re basically always stuck building a SPP empire".
I could probally write 50 things on why you are wrong and spreading false information about this but i'll just say one. I have 83 factories and 12 of them are SPP's. I'm constantly withdrawing money from every single factory I own........and I have a lot of fun supplying the galaxy with goods other than energy.
To put this in the simplest possible terms, there's profits and then there's PROFITS.

Any factory in X2 will turn a profit.

The difference is, most of them turn the kind of profit that will pay your mortgage, buy you a new car every year and pay for your kids' college funds.

The SPPs on the other hand bring in enough cash fast enough that you live in Beverly Hills, have a fleet of expensive sports cars and have buildings at colleges _named_ after your kids due to the donations you've made.

It's the difference between a cab driver who owns his own cab, or a small business vs the likes of Bill Gates or Donald Trump.

Personally I don't do the all SPP empire - I like finding needs and filling them - like a wheat farm in Oceans of Fantasy.
Like the Soyery and soyfarm in that sector as well. Husk and Wheat are secondary resources for a bunch of Boron plants and I'm the only source for about a dozen sectors distance

I don't have a problem with making slower profit - well not since I had the cash for my Hercules anyway.

I'm just out to have fun - the M2s and M1s can wait.

Xocyll

Darshu
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Post by Darshu » Sat, 14. Feb 04, 21:35

@TD & Dscaper.

Yeah, sorry bout that. I didn't mean a flaw in your reasoning. Heh, bad choice of words.

And upon reflection, it still boils down to an SPP pumps out the most credits, its just whether you want to bathe in them or re-invest them that's the question eh?

I kind of prefer a combination of both... :lol:

tboan02
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Very Helpful

Post by tboan02 » Sat, 14. Feb 04, 22:00

I wish it would have been here before I spent a lot of time and money to build a supply line of factories to supply a crystal fab to supply crystals to my SPP in an attempt to maximize profits. The problem with this is that it takes a lot of time moving transports around to move goods from one of your factories to the next. I would like to be able to have this automated by the game, or just setup the factory and forget it so I can get back to fighting and capturing ships :) :) while making money to fund my war efforts. I just hope they don't decide to fix the ecomony with a patch and cause a real problem for those of us with a lot of SPP's.

Anyways great post and very helpful.

BFWibble
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Post by BFWibble » Sat, 14. Feb 04, 22:48

I’m very confused about the success everyone seems to be getting with Solar Power Plants. I am really struggling, one moment it seems to be going fine and the next thing my entire SPP industry is on the verge of collapse.

I’ve had a successful SP in Red Light, but again it's those crystals, there are almost none available, my TP is travelling 3 sectors just to bring back 14 crystals, once my SPP was topped up fine now its down to 200, by the time my TP arrives with crystals I’ve used more than it has collected. I’ve got three SPP, one in Kingdoms End (just built), one in Red Light and one in Herrons Nebula. Herrons Nebula SPP is the only SPP that has a full stock of crystals, my SPP in Red Light is having to travel to three worlds for crystals and my SPP in KE is also going to three worlds, once they are gone I will be out all over. Faster TP’s are not the issue, it does not matter if they were going one million miles and hour there are simply almost no crystals for them to rush to.

It seems as though I should be constructing crystal factories, Cahoona bakeries and Cattle Ranches to help with this problem but I notice many people are earning mega credits with just SPP economies. What am I doing wrong? I’m more than happy to restart if I’ve made fundamental mistakes.

Extra Info:
- Each SPP has 2 Argon Express as sellers and 1 Argon Express as a Crystal purchaser (All have max engine tuning)
- Energy selling for 20
- Crystals buying for 1684 (buying only from Trading Stations)
- Using no Scripts

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