Collecting ideas: multi-player in games like X3

General discussions about the games by Egosoft including X-BTF, XT, X², X³: Reunion, X³: Terran Conflict and X³: Albion Prelude.

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RavenIII
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Post by RavenIII » Wed, 5. Dec 07, 18:02

I notice GR1M_REAPER mentioned Hardwar, loved that game. Basic idea was a moon (albeit I'd still prefer space), where you're stuck in craters. Could own a warehouse and pick on the AI (there would be bounty hunts and "pirates" to pick on), taking their goods, likewise for players.

Hmm, but what would I like in multiplayer for a game like X3?
  • Co-op, similar to the current X3 but with more than a sole player :roll:
  • Raiding rival bases sounded good from above, perhaps tie that in with co-op, yet a seperate mode? Sort of like tug-of-war :P
  • Perhaps some sort of "assault the objective(s)", with a heavily defended base, one attacking team, one defending, not sure how that'd work entirely though.
    • Probably something like destroy the shield nodes or something, turrets can shoot you (player or AI controlled?), fighters chase you away (or kill you? most definitely player controlled).
    • Mines, Torpedo Vessels, Shield Nodes and Lasertowers I guess. Time limited I reckon.
I'm going to talk a little theoretically here, if you did an entirely multiplayer game (much like Enemy Territory: QUAKE Wars or Battlefield 2) excluding "true" co-op, at least include "bots". They can take a game some way if you allow a player to practice on them before hitting the real players. And if the online community doesn't shape up how you'd wish it to be (as a player), then its somewhere to go as refuge until friends come online.

I miss cooperative play in the Aliens versus Predator sense (first in the series), shooting up those semi-mindless aliens with friends and family :D

Anyway, thats my 2 pence worth I reckon.

foxz88
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Post by foxz88 » Wed, 5. Dec 07, 19:30

I"m asking myself what would happen to my property (station, ship, complex) when I log out.

I think we could have sector that are heavily protected by the AI so your ennemy could not destroy them but your profit would be limited. As your empire extend, you could build factory in lower security sector were the profit would be higher. You would have to put patrol, lasertower, strong sheild, drone, etc... You could even buy protection from the AI so when your factory is under attack, the AI would "jump" a fleet to protect it.

shane-oh
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Post by shane-oh » Thu, 6. Dec 07, 02:42

Here is what I think
Deathmatch: Just a small sector with each player in an m3+ - 5 type ship

Super deathmatch: average sector, massive fleets

A scenario where one player has to defend a complex/factory from the other players by deploying mines and such (would be fun in a minefield)

Capture the flag: Player has to open their cargo bay to get the "flag" and eject it in a certain area (no transporters to move the flag about), and for the team to return the flag, they need to destroy the ship and collect the "flag"

King of the Hill: just staying within a certain distance of a station, nothing too complex

Also when selecting a ship to play as, the player should get a certain amount of points which they use to buy and equip their ships, the cost of everything based on how good it is
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Post by Nanook » Thu, 6. Dec 07, 03:15

I know that Bernd has said they'll at some point develop some sort of multiplayer game, but I don't really see how that would work without greatly simplifying the current game structure, which I wouldn't want to see happen. Maybe something where you develop your empires offline, and then join with one or more online players to battle it out to see who has the strongest empire/fleet. Even then, the multiplayer gameplay would probably have to be greatly simplified. Personally, though, I'd just rather see Egosoft's efforts going into making the game world more complex and more lively, with a lot more player-NPC interaction.

But what I think would be cool is some way to have an ingame chat connection to other players, while you're playing your single player game. Perhaps even have some sort of video connection where you could give other players a glimpse of your game, even let them observe your battles in progress.
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mdimasso
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Post by mdimasso » Thu, 6. Dec 07, 19:04

In my opinion (and I may repeat ideas for previous posts) the game should be like this:

-The servers should not be massive, only 8 to 32 players or something like that. This way the universe wouldn't get crowded too fast, and it would create a nice competition enviroment between rival player companies and fleets. All of this in the normal single-player system we all know.

-You should only log off while docked in a station (not a ship). Also if you dock in one of your stations, and it gets destroyed, it counts as your death too. That is why players should dock in NPC stations or protected places.
Yes, your own stuff can be shot down while you are not watching, it keeps the game real. If you decide to have a huge empire, deal with it, you have to protect it, the space is a dangerous place. That is why the core sectors should have much stronger defenses to help "newbies" in their way to better ships and first buildings.

-If you die you should reappear in some sort of Hospital Facility (which should be added to most imortant sectors) with an M5 of the corresponding race (the one owner of the sector you are in). If you had an insurance, you would get in cash a percetange of the ship you died on's worth (more expensive ships, more expensive insurance... insurance should exist for stations too).

-The travelling system should be tweaked, as SETA won't work. Someone said the same as I thought, something similiar to the cruise engines in Freelancer. I think this would solve the problem.

-There should be some kind of interaction between players, apart from creating parties and go hunting for loot, such as buy-sell stations, ships, money transfers, etc.

-Each player should count as a separate faction for the purpose of friend-foe settings.

A little idea: if a player destroys a ship or station owned by another player, the latest has the chance of, in response, place a bounty (BBS mission) on the agressor's head. That would dispatch some NPC bounty-hunters along with other players interested in the money.

Just a bunch of thoughts, hope you like them.

Also, please, if you know abount Freelnacer servers, check this out, I need help! http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=195326

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Post by junj.chan » Fri, 7. Dec 07, 01:36

I think there must be the freedom to do what you want as there is in single player. Maybe having a seperate multiplayer and singleplayer universe would work well.

-The multi universe should be small, the point being you play with your friends.
-It could work quite well in a similar style to some RTS's where multiplayer games are saveable so you can resume them later (Empire Earth comes to mind)
-To resume the game you should have most players present (perhaps 2/3rds).
-Any player that is not present has all stations controlled by the computer, ships that are running on auto-pilot continue. Any ship that the player was flying or does not have orders is temporarily removed from the game.
-Property of absent player still in the game should either be invulnerable to other players but destroyable by the computer but some compensation paid for anything destroyed or perhaps completely invulnerable.
-Each player is a faction in order to set Friend or Foe settings.
-There should be several "wilderness" reigons made of several empty (+ roids) sectors for player expansion.
-These wilderness reigons allow for players to either build their own individual empires, 1 empire together, or several opposing empires in teams.
-If players ally to create an empire they count as 1 faction and are able to declare war or make alliances etc. with all NPC factions. (Will require some sort of diplomacy screen, or even better diplomats and embassies)
-Start conditions should include things like starting money. This means you can all start from scratch or all start with enough to build your empires and slog it out, or anything in between.
-There will also need to be sort of team work systems, such as the ability to form squadrons/gangs/fleets/whatever else you want to call them. When one member of a squad accepts a BBS then all squad members have accepted it. Prize money is split evenly between all players.
-No PvP should be an option when starting a game but should not be adjustable during the game, after all, thats what you all agreed to at the start.
-There should be some sort of script limitation, i.e. no scripting objects in/out by players. Scripts, such as software or mission scripts, should still be allowed so you can add extras into your game.
-Another starting option could be race. This will determine your race rankings at the start of the game. All players start neutral to each other. And possible an option to be neutral to everyone.
-I think it would be good to have the ability to let somebody else control your assets if your not there, be this in game by handing over possesion temporarily or physically, as in let someone else play your game (don't know how to do this though, possibly just a simple save game transfer).
-Allowing new player to join would be good as well only by agreement of all players, perhaps through some sort of voting system. New players should start with the same conditons as all original players did.
-There was more but i've forgotten it. (but i think i've remembered most of it now)
-And this is by far the longest post i've ever written on a fourm.... :roll:

Doomed498
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Post by Doomed498 » Fri, 7. Dec 07, 05:30

The main thing I'd like to see would probably be some sort of co-op mode (like in freelancer) where there is a persistent server which the players log into. It wouldn't have to have too many players, only maybe between 4 and 8. Each player could exists as a separate race, giving you the ability to make another player either your friend or enemy.

The universe size should be configurable (small, medium or large). The larger sizes should be bigger than the current universe, especially if the game had 8 players. The entire universe should be PvP, however security in the very core sectors (Argon Prime, etc) should be so tight that to attack another player really wouldn't be worth it (like in Eve Online).

Quite a few things will have to be tweaked for multiplayer, for example SETA could be replace with some sort of high speed cruise engine (again, like in freelancer).

When logging off, a players assets would remain on the server, except for the playership and any ships that undocked and had no orders. This would mean it would be up to the player to defend their stations, so improved options to patrol and defend would need to be included.

Saving the game could be handled by the server and the game could only be resumed when a configurable number of people were available to join.

I think that the player should only be defeated once they are killed and they have no more assets and below a certain amount of cash. Otherwise if the player is killed, they just end up back at either their nearest station or the nearest shipyard or equipment dock. There should be some penalty for death, perhaps taking a large sum of money from the player?

I'd love to one day have the ability to be able to build complexes and fleets and then challenge those of other people's!
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Post by em3e3 » Fri, 7. Dec 07, 06:34

Here's a different take on MP: A mixture of AI controlled trading/mercenary companies and player-owned companies. That way, you don't necessarily know who is AI and who is a real person, unless you/they want to make contact. And, if you choose to leave an MP game, you can keep your property and move it to a new game.

If you're not playing, you can set which ships/stations continue trading, and are subject to damage/loss, and which stations/ships become 'invincible' or at least untouched.

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Post by Criminal_Colt » Fri, 7. Dec 07, 08:46

I'm not fussed so long as it doesn't impinge on a decent single player experience.

I love multi-player games but I don't have any extra ideas.

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Post by parameter » Fri, 7. Dec 07, 09:18

Criminal_Colt wrote:I'm not fussed so long as it doesn't impinge on a decent single player experience.
I love multi-player games but I don't have any extra ideas.
I totally agree with you! Multi player in a multiverse is great, mainly for those with the network and money but for those of us that have to work for a living , :P ...give 'kids' their pocket money etc we need to have stress relief in the less costly single player mode.
As I mentioned before I used to run game servers and think the limit on M/Player should ideally be 8 to 12, the load usually fouls up the ethernet at some point so lag is a real pain. Most network data still has to negotiate ancient, telecommunication infrastructure.. quick dig at our national provider
:P
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Doomed498
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Post by Doomed498 » Fri, 7. Dec 07, 10:09

em3e3 wrote:If you're not playing, you can set which ships/stations continue trading, and are subject to damage/loss, and which stations/ships become 'invincible' or at least untouched.
I'm not so for this idea, because all I can see is someone having their station being attacked and then setting it to become invincible and then logging off...
parameter wrote:As I mentioned before I used to run game servers and think the limit on M/Player should ideally be 8 to 12, the load usually fouls up the ethernet at some point so lag is a real pain.
I agree with this, although not so much about the lag part (I guess it would just depend on how much traffic the game made), but for the fact that if you started the get too many players, in a universe that is either the current size or even slightly larger, after a while of play the universe would begin to get cluttered with all the players ships and stations.
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parameter
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Network latency or inherent jitters?

Post by parameter » Fri, 7. Dec 07, 14:46

Hi Doomed, I found the lag tended to be due to some of the individual players computers being low spec, but we used to get a bottleneck around 12 players. Funny racing to a position, slotting three tango's and then freezing mid stride just as more tango's appear. Then unfreezing [ defrosting? :) ] in time to hear crappy voice saying, 'That'll teach him' and then lights out. Always tended to be the worst spec player that caused the lag. Usually a modem player!
:)
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Post by Graphil » Fri, 7. Dec 07, 15:28

1 player flying the ship as in the current game.
Another player able to take control of a turret and use it.
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Post by ReggieReddog » Fri, 7. Dec 07, 16:34

I'm not sure it would be all that interesting to sit in a PPC turret for any length of time. I would be happy with just some better AI commands for the turrets. "Shoot capitals only" "Shoot nearest fighter" and some AI gun switching in the turrets would be nice.

But a fun way to do a deathmatch would be M1 vs M1, with the captain of the M1 acting as the commander and all the other players could jump in a turret or jump in a fighter as they see fit. Or maybe it would have to be a souped-up M1 that can do repairs.
I guess you could even throw in an M2 and an M6, which the top scorers can have first choice to select at the beginning of a round.

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Ideas on MP

Post by mike_doyle » Fri, 7. Dec 07, 17:44

Having played MP FPS games like Quake family games(no character/empire building) just reactions, up to 20 or 30 players on a server, LAN play is great

Also played NeverWinter Nights in Coop/PvP multiplayer - again in those games you don't build up an empire, you DO develop your character though.

A LAN based MP game where players log in to a shared server (headless, no graphics at least, ported to run on Linux/FreeBSD as well as Windows) game client on Windows/Mac.

Enable empire building-
- player owned fighters - piloted by players and/or AI
- player owned traders - piloted by players and/or AI
- Player owned Capitol ships - piloted by AI ???
- Player owned stations ?

Definitely restrict saving to when all players are docked at AI stations.

Have players auto-eject when player-ship destroyed. If they possess Salvage Insurance, have a Goner M5 or Goner M4 appear once hostiles are at least 6km away and "rescue" them (they end up as pilot of ship equipped with
- Nav Software
- Jump Drive
- No weapons
- Minimal shields
Salvage insurance means the rest of their empire and their bank balance is OK.

Without salvage insurance, they end up rescued by a Goner piloted M5
(which they keep) charged mucho credits for the rescue, say half a million. If they don't have that much credits, the Goners are free to re-posses any ships they have up to that amount, any remaining credits after selling of their ships/cargo transferred back to the player.

Alternately, have the Goners rescue mission simply jump in, pick up player, and drop them off at nearest ship yard. Fee (CR 500000)
payable if player has no salvage insurance. Up to player to purchase
a ship of their choice.

Course, if they're rescued by another player, then they don't pay the Goners. (make a Player Astronaut both un-killable, un-enslavable and able to be rescued even if the other player does not have a cargo life support system)

In an MP game, players playing in Co-op mode might supply
eachother with ships, jump-drive kits, etc essentially free of
charge, and/or for exorbitant amounts.

Regarding import/export between single player and multi-player - allow
player to import/export player ship, cargo and any docked fighters if docked at Goner Temple. Cash, other empire possessions, do not import/export.

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Post by daedalao » Fri, 7. Dec 07, 18:45

This is probably a little off, but I'd love to see the ability to acquire other corporations. Hostile takeover or not... It just sounds enticing to have to negotiate a takeover. Ousting members of said corporation... etc.

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Post by ahercula » Fri, 7. Dec 07, 19:28

Since the start I looked at the universe of X3 and tought: OMG if we just could have some kind of persistent universe like in Freelancer this would be my home.

So I believe that answers the question; make it like in Freelancer please, with all the possibilities of this amazing universe and game.

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Post by em3e3 » Fri, 7. Dec 07, 19:32

Doomed498 wrote:
em3e3 wrote:If you're not playing, you can set which ships/stations continue trading, and are subject to damage/loss, and which stations/ships become 'invincible' or at least untouched.
I'm not so for this idea, because all I can see is someone having their station being attacked and then setting it to become invincible and then logging off...
Seems like this could be prevented easily. And, it opens up a new experience: if another player, real or AI attacks you or your property, you could put up a 'bounty' for their assasination, or capture of property. Other players could see this on the station BBSes, and contact you for the 'job'.

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Re: Collecting ideas: multi-player in games like X3

Post by fiksal » Fri, 7. Dec 07, 19:58

hey, how could I've missed this thread

The co-op play is the most important thing to me in a multiplayer game.
Simple Deathmatch-like options do not interest me.

In games like X I'd be interested in two modes:

- custom skirmishes, between players, assigned into fleets/teams. Being able to easily communicate with other players and/or the fleet commander. Would be nice if NPC ships could participate too.

- empire building / quests / storyline play. Ability for few players to set up a game and play through X3 either on the same side or opposing factions / sides. Given the slow pace of the game, it'd be nice if the game could provide an easy enough way to enter and leave the game. Depending on the number of players, the game can be hosted by one of the players, and it won’t have to be always running (compare to MMO, that is).
How forgiving deaths, log ins and log offs - should be configurable. Balance can be similar to Single Player version.
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Post by Jingleheimer » Fri, 7. Dec 07, 23:00

An update to my last post, I think the best way of implementing multiplayer into the X universe would be through several modes, and they are:

1. Co-op (long-term scope with full features)
2. Deathmatch (short-term scope in a single sector)
3. Live Universe (Freelancer-like style without fleet/station ownership)

I disagree with those that think co-op multiplayer in X should allow people's property to be destroyed while they are away from the game. Yeah, it's more realistic; but it just aint very fun for the poor sap who got bum-rushed after they logged off. I'm not a SETA cheater, but think about using SETA for a few hours to come back and find your entire empire you've spent hundreds of hours on completely wiped out - with no save! I imagine many would contimplate suicide at this point. :P

My suggestion for Co-op would be to treat people's property as indestructable NPC's when they are away. Particularly, I'm talking about stations since they are not offensive in nature. Ships, on the other hand, I'm not so picky about if they get destroyed. It's not too difficult to dock your ships in a safe location.

Given the scale of X3, and the time it takes to progress, I think it would be difficult to incorporate multiplayer without significantly altering the gameplay. X3 is NOT a "get in and out quickly" kind of game. Multiplayer games tend to have a lot shorter scope/scale so people can stop and pick up where they left off later. This is what makes Freelancer's multiplayer work so well.

Many people are pointing to Freelancer as a great example -and I agree it is very good- but there is one major difference between Freelancer and X3 that affects multiplayer. Namely, that difference is the ownership of property. In Freelancer you only owned ships, and could only control one ship at a time. When you were done you'd simply fly to a station and save. The odds of a station being destroyed while you were away from the game were very low. Also, you had a lot less to lose in Freelancer by a ship getting destroyed. In X3, however, you have LOT more to lose in terms of property and hours spent. Progress is MUCH slower.

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