Factory Complex Calculator: StandAlone v2.0.4.5 18Jun07: now supports 'Ashley's Fabs'
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Thank you, I look forward to the update. If I may make a suggestion; is it possible for you to make your programme accept custom factories? So you basically enter the products per cycle, cycle time, resources, cost, etc... yourself and the programme can take it from there? The reason I suggest this is because there are plenty of factory mods and scripts out there and if the user could enter information into the programme without waiting for updates, it would make things a lot easier and faster for both you and the users. Then, if you wanted to, you could just supply 'packs' of factories which can be imported in that format.
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Deleted User
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Deleted User
New version 2.0.4.2
Added (switchable) support for 'Ashley's XL Fabs' mod (v2.5 on it's own, or with the XFP 4.2 mod)
Can now enter 0 as the product/resource price (to allow for 'seperated' complexes).
Can now choose race colours to match ScorpBy's active map utility.
(Custom factories are being thought about)
See any errors / problems ?
must sleep now ...
Added (switchable) support for 'Ashley's XL Fabs' mod (v2.5 on it's own, or with the XFP 4.2 mod)
Can now enter 0 as the product/resource price (to allow for 'seperated' complexes).
Can now choose race colours to match ScorpBy's active map utility.
(Custom factories are being thought about)
See any errors / problems ?
must sleep now ...
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Detritis Max
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Fri, 6. Feb 04, 17:51
Hi Dave,
Great app, just a couple things. I am running Vista at the moment and I also got the strange behaviour of the dropdown menus vanishing. Tried that hotfix you gave, didnt help but I might have a temp solution for some people. I think it might have something to do with Vista's UAC ( pain in the backside actually ), if you open the properties window and either run it in Windows XP SP2 compatability mode or run it as administrator it works properly with no problems at all.
The other things is I am attempting to make a Quantum Tube Complex with 5 fabs, I autofill the other stations and all seems well, however when I compare the list your program gives me to Merroc's Excel spreadsheet they are completely different. 16 assorted factories with your program and 31 assorted factories with Merroc's
Any thoughts on what might be going on?
Detritis
Edit
Seems its not restricited to just the QT fabs, infact all factories I tried gave me the same behaviour - your program giving nearly half the amount of stations Merroc's did.
Great app, just a couple things. I am running Vista at the moment and I also got the strange behaviour of the dropdown menus vanishing. Tried that hotfix you gave, didnt help but I might have a temp solution for some people. I think it might have something to do with Vista's UAC ( pain in the backside actually ), if you open the properties window and either run it in Windows XP SP2 compatability mode or run it as administrator it works properly with no problems at all.
The other things is I am attempting to make a Quantum Tube Complex with 5 fabs, I autofill the other stations and all seems well, however when I compare the list your program gives me to Merroc's Excel spreadsheet they are completely different. 16 assorted factories with your program and 31 assorted factories with Merroc's
Any thoughts on what might be going on?Detritis
Edit
Seems its not restricited to just the QT fabs, infact all factories I tried gave me the same behaviour - your program giving nearly half the amount of stations Merroc's did.
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Carlo the Curious
- Posts: 16999
- Joined: Mon, 5. Mar 07, 22:03
Isn't it 1 L for 5 S size fabs? EDIT: Doh, 1 is for crystals, I see it now
Merroc's spreadsheet counts CCKs in the 'Total stations' entry, not sure if Dave Toome's does.
Merroc's spreadsheet counts CCKs in the 'Total stations' entry, not sure if Dave Toome's does.
Last edited by Carlo the Curious on Wed, 13. Jun 07, 14:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Deleted User
5 Argon QTube fabs
Auto fill
Me:
Merroc:
ie Same factory list except Merroc's doesn't include the silicon mine
so Merroc = 15 stations + 14 kits = 29 total
mine 16 stations + 15 kits + 31 total
No disagreement as far as I can see
If you put an SSP L & 3 crystal M s in you start escalating a bit, the calc utils
are showing you the min. needed set up for 5 QTubes.
Auto fill
Me:
Code: Select all
Quantum Tube Fab S 5
Solar Power Plant M 2
Crystal Fab M 2
Cahoona Bakery L 1
Cahoona Bakery M 2
Cattle Ranch L 1
Cattle Ranch M 2
Silicon Mine L 1 45
* Total Factories 16
* New Factories 16
* New Factories + constr. kits: 15
Code: Select all
Quantum Tube Fab S 5
Cahoona Bakery L 1
Cattle Ranch L 1
Solar Power Plant M 1
Solar Power Plant M 1
Cahoona Bakery M 1
Cahoona Bakery M 1
Cattle Ranch M 1
Cattle Ranch M 1
Crystal Fab M 1
Crystal Fab M 1
Needed Complex Kits 14
Number of Stations 15
Total stations needed 29
so Merroc = 15 stations + 14 kits = 29 total
mine 16 stations + 15 kits + 31 total
No disagreement as far as I can see
If you put an SSP L & 3 crystal M s in you start escalating a bit, the calc utils
are showing you the min. needed set up for 5 QTubes.
Minimum capacity/overproduction. My off-the-top-of-my-braincell list minimized something else. That something was not even the minimal number of stations.Dave Toome wrote: If you put an SSP L & 3 crystal M s in you start escalating a bit, the calc utils are showing you the min. needed set up for 5 QTubes.
Goner Pancake Protector X
Insanity included at no extra charge.
There is no Box. I am the sand.
Insanity included at no extra charge.
There is no Box. I am the sand.
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Deleted User
Yes, my initial wish would be to put as few, biggest SPPs in as required,
but that's more bourne out of the knowledge that the complex would
almost certainly get extended later on in the game.
In fact I'd find it difficult to drop 2 M's instead of one L SPP,
but if you want that specific balanced complex at least cost (44 mill)......
In this multi-quantum tube complex situation I'd more likely
to be looking to drop stations to a future bigger & balanced
design:
ie 13 Qtube + 1 SPP XL, 6 crystal M (but it would have no other M factories,
final cost 125 million with 34 factories) and put up with (or sell)
the in-between time excess intermediates production,
= better long term use of your credits.
Then again by the time it was complete, I'd have probably added
top-end factories other than QTubes anyway.
but that's more bourne out of the knowledge that the complex would
almost certainly get extended later on in the game.
In fact I'd find it difficult to drop 2 M's instead of one L SPP,
but if you want that specific balanced complex at least cost (44 mill)......
In this multi-quantum tube complex situation I'd more likely
to be looking to drop stations to a future bigger & balanced
design:
ie 13 Qtube + 1 SPP XL, 6 crystal M (but it would have no other M factories,
final cost 125 million with 34 factories) and put up with (or sell)
the in-between time excess intermediates production,
= better long term use of your credits.
Then again by the time it was complete, I'd have probably added
top-end factories other than QTubes anyway.
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Deleted User
Updated to fix really bad bug.
Just got to designing/building a Teladi laser complex in XTM+Ashley & noticed something very wrong.
Nobody seems to have noticed that all Laser & Shield factories were wrong for non-Argon races!
All races' factories of these types showed as needing Meatsteak Cahoonas.
v2.0.4.3 fixes this, download on first post in this thread, no need to uninstall, just install over the top of the old version.
Just got to designing/building a Teladi laser complex in XTM+Ashley & noticed something very wrong.
Nobody seems to have noticed that all Laser & Shield factories were wrong for non-Argon races!
All races' factories of these types showed as needing Meatsteak Cahoonas.
v2.0.4.3 fixes this, download on first post in this thread, no need to uninstall, just install over the top of the old version.
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Deleted User
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Detritis Max
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Fri, 6. Feb 04, 17:51
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Deleted User
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Deleted User
Yes, I always found that a bit odd.
I used to think that with factories that require food / pre-food (basic) as resources, that the factory-purchase-price was
set to give a reasonably equal payback-time (since the different races have different food/basic usage-rate & cost).
ie I thought Egosoft set the factory purchase prices in such a way that this balance was kept.
But in fact the real balance is the similarity of profit-per-hour that a given factory type
makes for different races (they are very close).
The factory price is really only a major consideration for stand-alone factories, or less so for single-product complexes.
It's not normally cost-effective to mix up different needed race's food/basic factories in a complex,
just so you can buy the various cheapest race's product-factory for your complex.
The pay-back time for different race's stand-alone Ore L mines (25 yield) ranges from 30.4 to 47.5 hours
(buying ECells at ave. price), they all make 24000 / hr.
For a self-sufficient Ore-product complex (ie SPP/crystals/silicon/food/basic in the complex),
payback ranges from 127 to 138 hours, which is far less of a range & almost insignificant.
For more complex complexes it is certainly insignificant.
Anyway, I could add a column to show 'Cheapest race to buy this factory from', but possibly I think
there's enough columns already.
I'll add it to the wish list, but won't make a new version for this just now, unless there are
other things people want to add (ie I can add a few things to make it worth a new version).
I used to think that with factories that require food / pre-food (basic) as resources, that the factory-purchase-price was
set to give a reasonably equal payback-time (since the different races have different food/basic usage-rate & cost).
ie I thought Egosoft set the factory purchase prices in such a way that this balance was kept.
But in fact the real balance is the similarity of profit-per-hour that a given factory type
makes for different races (they are very close).
The factory price is really only a major consideration for stand-alone factories, or less so for single-product complexes.
It's not normally cost-effective to mix up different needed race's food/basic factories in a complex,
just so you can buy the various cheapest race's product-factory for your complex.
The pay-back time for different race's stand-alone Ore L mines (25 yield) ranges from 30.4 to 47.5 hours
(buying ECells at ave. price), they all make 24000 / hr.
For a self-sufficient Ore-product complex (ie SPP/crystals/silicon/food/basic in the complex),
payback ranges from 127 to 138 hours, which is far less of a range & almost insignificant.
For more complex complexes it is certainly insignificant.
Anyway, I could add a column to show 'Cheapest race to buy this factory from', but possibly I think
there's enough columns already
. I'll add it to the wish list, but won't make a new version for this just now, unless there are
other things people want to add (ie I can add a few things to make it worth a new version).
I was playing with this a lot last night trying to find out the best basic loop combo for my location.
problem is that the simulator doesn't acount for the possibility that the player will build a complex where intermediate products will not be bought. So it instead gives a rather large profit margin where in fact you will have significantly less than that. And most places you want be able to sell 100% of your stock. Perhaps a field where the user could put in the estimated units sold per hr is needed. that way you could get ball park estimates...
another thing is seeding the simulator with energy cells. but why would you want to do that? it's far more cost efficiant to seed with crystal stock if a spp exists in the complex. Of course this puts the entire complex's burden on the spp production rate, but hey it works, and it works for far less. and as a bonus it also prevents stalls and in most cases eliminates them completely. because there will always be energycells being made as long as you have crystals.
anyway yeah, serieously kick ass program you have here. already saved me a 15mil mistake... but now I realize I have to decide; do I want something made purely for the profits or something more functional...
oh also, the terran race in the xtended .7 mod also has it's own line of factories. (with new weapon production possibilities as well) So it would be great if you could add those in when you get the time.
problem is that the simulator doesn't acount for the possibility that the player will build a complex where intermediate products will not be bought. So it instead gives a rather large profit margin where in fact you will have significantly less than that. And most places you want be able to sell 100% of your stock. Perhaps a field where the user could put in the estimated units sold per hr is needed. that way you could get ball park estimates...
another thing is seeding the simulator with energy cells. but why would you want to do that? it's far more cost efficiant to seed with crystal stock if a spp exists in the complex. Of course this puts the entire complex's burden on the spp production rate, but hey it works, and it works for far less. and as a bonus it also prevents stalls and in most cases eliminates them completely. because there will always be energycells being made as long as you have crystals.
anyway yeah, serieously kick ass program you have here. already saved me a 15mil mistake... but now I realize I have to decide; do I want something made purely for the profits or something more functional...
oh also, the terran race in the xtended .7 mod also has it's own line of factories. (with new weapon production possibilities as well) So it would be great if you could add those in when you get the time.
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Deleted User
If you click the sell/buy/both/none button in the row of the intermediate ware, you can setthe simulator doesn't acount for the possibility that the player will build a complex where intermediate products will not be bought
whichever of those states you wish for that ware.
I thought the default state for non-products was 'none' ie don't buy or sell.
Yes, I agree & was thinking of adding that option, but you could look on each 138 ecells asit's far more cost efficiant to seed with crystal stock if a spp exists
equivalent to 1 crystal for the seeding purpose.
The only real reason for being able to pre-stock with intermediates is for those complex configurations that are self-sufficient only when the stocks are full (as pointed out earlier by jlehtone), these can stall with just ecells seeded, but run fine with a full intermediate stock.
The higher end products (eg gPPC) are both, cos you can sell the excess off for a large profit, whilst equiping your fleet.purely for the profits or something more functional
XTM-specific factories (like AMatter, Hhammerhead & Beluga missiles) are in my mind, cos I guess I'll be building them at some point soon(ish).
There's nothing like needing the info myself for getting this into the next version
well useing energy cells is quite different than crystals. let me explain...
take this complex:
silicon xxl mine (67)
crystal fab m
bofu chemlab xxl
bio gas factory xxl
solar power plant m
lets say were not selling anything from this complex for simplicity sake.
lets look at this. the crystal fab won't be able to keep up with the spp. the 3 xxl factories demand like a billion times more energy cells than the spp can produce. This means your going to need hundreds of thousands of energy cells just to kickstart things so that some of the places get full and stop produceing so the complex needs less energy cells right?
but if you use crystals you can bypass this problem. because the spp can only produce so many cells you will have only the food factories produceing. This is because the food factories need less energy cells per one production. the silicon mine will need almost twice what they do for one production, and the food places will constantly drain the energy cells so that the silicon mine never produces anything. (the spp won't be able to keep up with the demand)
When the food places get full (this will happen fast because at this point nothing is useing them) the power plant starts building access energy cells and the mine kicks in, then shortly after the crystal fab completing the loop.
as a result the complex needs around half the crystals than what it would take if you delivered thier amount in raw energy cells.
I'm just ball parking here, but I'd say around 500-600 crystals would be enough to start things. where the energy cell equivlent would be 1,000-1,200 crystals worth.
you can use this same technique to start extremely large complexes with extremely stunted power production as well. the same princible works there too. you just have to pick the factory sizes properly. (especially take a look at the crystal factories storage amount, or keep a ship there and manually unload more crystals as the complex needs them)
also I found a bug in your program. if you add a bunch of factories, then delete them, then add the same amount of new factories the buttons get stuck toggleing between buy/sell, and won't go to none. They also don't go blank when you delete the factory so it's like they don't get reset or something.
and I really would like something where I can enter in the estimated items sold per hour, or ideally per minuate. right now it seems to think you will always keep your stock at half when selling something. your stock level is especially important when you have a jacked up complex like the one above...
take this complex:
silicon xxl mine (67)
crystal fab m
bofu chemlab xxl
bio gas factory xxl
solar power plant m
lets say were not selling anything from this complex for simplicity sake.
lets look at this. the crystal fab won't be able to keep up with the spp. the 3 xxl factories demand like a billion times more energy cells than the spp can produce. This means your going to need hundreds of thousands of energy cells just to kickstart things so that some of the places get full and stop produceing so the complex needs less energy cells right?
but if you use crystals you can bypass this problem. because the spp can only produce so many cells you will have only the food factories produceing. This is because the food factories need less energy cells per one production. the silicon mine will need almost twice what they do for one production, and the food places will constantly drain the energy cells so that the silicon mine never produces anything. (the spp won't be able to keep up with the demand)
When the food places get full (this will happen fast because at this point nothing is useing them) the power plant starts building access energy cells and the mine kicks in, then shortly after the crystal fab completing the loop.
as a result the complex needs around half the crystals than what it would take if you delivered thier amount in raw energy cells.
I'm just ball parking here, but I'd say around 500-600 crystals would be enough to start things. where the energy cell equivlent would be 1,000-1,200 crystals worth.
you can use this same technique to start extremely large complexes with extremely stunted power production as well. the same princible works there too. you just have to pick the factory sizes properly. (especially take a look at the crystal factories storage amount, or keep a ship there and manually unload more crystals as the complex needs them)
also I found a bug in your program. if you add a bunch of factories, then delete them, then add the same amount of new factories the buttons get stuck toggleing between buy/sell, and won't go to none. They also don't go blank when you delete the factory so it's like they don't get reset or something.
and I really would like something where I can enter in the estimated items sold per hour, or ideally per minuate. right now it seems to think you will always keep your stock at half when selling something. your stock level is especially important when you have a jacked up complex like the one above...
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Deleted User
Yes OK, I can see your point about the difference between using ecell & crystals in-game,
all I meant was using 138 ecells per seed-crystal for the purposes of seeding the simulation.
ie even though I reckon you'd need to add 2000 crystal to get that extreme-example complex to not stall
(which is more than it can stock), you could enter 2000*138 ecells (which is also way more
than it can stock) & the intermediates then fill & its runs as you said.
The 'stuck' buy/sell buttons is a long standing bug - I just keep forgetting to fix it.
Yes, the sim. aims at buying resource/selling intermediates to keep the stock at around 50% full
(just as some level to keep it going).
I can't see how you'd know the true rate at which you can actually buy/sell,
until you've built the complex & had it running a while - by which time you don't need to simulate it I guess.
all I meant was using 138 ecells per seed-crystal for the purposes of seeding the simulation.
ie even though I reckon you'd need to add 2000 crystal to get that extreme-example complex to not stall
(which is more than it can stock), you could enter 2000*138 ecells (which is also way more
than it can stock) & the intermediates then fill & its runs as you said.
The 'stuck' buy/sell buttons is a long standing bug - I just keep forgetting to fix it.
Yes, the sim. aims at buying resource/selling intermediates to keep the stock at around 50% full
(just as some level to keep it going).
I can't see how you'd know the true rate at which you can actually buy/sell,
until you've built the complex & had it running a while - by which time you don't need to simulate it I guess.