New FL-Universe map development. Need community help

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X2-Illuminatus
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Re: New FL-Universe map development. Need community help

Post by X2-Illuminatus » Mon, 15. Aug 22, 22:23

It seems I didn't clear some variables properly. I updated the log output in the post above. Now, it hopefully shows the correct shipyards and docks in the correct sectors.

Regarding the other things you mentioned:
iXenon wrote:
Mon, 15. Aug 22, 20:45
USC Orbital Supply Base
Spacelab Headquarters
Pirates Shipyard
• USC Orbital Supply Base is a kind of Trading Dock in Terran sectors, it also exists in X3TC/AP.
• Spacelab Headquarters is the name of the Player Headquarters before the Player takes control of it. (I'm pulling my data from a non-plot custom game.)
• Pirates Shipyard is a shipyard operated by the Pirates. On the map it's only displayed as "Shipyard". It's a bit away from the ecliptic, so probably why you haven't found it in your game yet.
iXenon wrote:
Mon, 15. Aug 22, 20:45
It also doesn't show gates between Holy Vision alpha and Perpetual Sin, between Neptune and Brennan's Triumph delta. In fact gates are there.
This is also because I'm extracting the data from a non-plot game. These are all plot gates.
iXenon wrote:
Mon, 15. Aug 22, 20:45
And the last thing, it doesn't show Pirates Anarchy port in Mercenaries' Rift that I actually have, but shows Paranid Equipment Dock instead.
This is quite funny. :D I see that, too. I guess, this is because both stations share the same model and my script returns the ware type code of that station. So if there's another case of Pirates owning a sector and having a Paranid equipment dock in it, this is likely a Pirates Anarchy port, as well.
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Re: New FL-Universe map development. Need community help

Post by iXenon » Tue, 16. Aug 22, 17:38

X2-Illuminatus wrote:
Mon, 15. Aug 22, 22:23
• USC Orbital Supply Base is a kind of Trading Dock in Terran sectors, it also exists in X3TC/AP.
The log shows this is placed in "The Moon" and "Venus", but I don't see them there. The "USC Orbital Support Station" is also missed in two sectors but I have it in Saturn.

UPD: Terrans sectors are very big. Visited them once again and was able to find everything.
X2-Illuminatus wrote:
Mon, 15. Aug 22, 22:23
• Pirates Shipyard is a shipyard operated by the Pirates. On the map it's only displayed as "Shipyard". It's a bit away from the ecliptic, so probably why you haven't found it in your game yet.
Wow! I wasn't aware (or just forgot) that these station exist at all! Visited these sectors but they are dark, so spent some time to find Shipyards, but they are there. Then launched Arrow and it was able to find Pirate Base in the middle of nowhere. So, at the end I found everything for those two sectors (Lost Order and Hatikvah's Faith). Thanks!

And meanwhile I found something that didn't expect:
https://iili.io/gqbHoG.png
X2-Illuminatus wrote:
Mon, 15. Aug 22, 22:23
This is also because I'm extracting the data from a non-plot game. These are all plot gates.
Do you mean in non-plot games these gates won't appear and it's impossible to use them? Why? And how to get to Terran sectors in that case?
X2-Illuminatus wrote:
Mon, 15. Aug 22, 22:23
I guess, this is because both stations share the same model and my script returns the ware type code of that station. So if there's another case of Pirates owning a sector and having a Paranid equipment dock in it, this is likely a Pirates Anarchy port, as well.
Btw, there are only few Pirates Anarchy ports and only one Marauder. Would be it better to have them on map in that way?
  • The Marauder -> [SY]
  • Pirate Anarchy Port -> [ED]
And same for:
  • Military Base -> [MO]
  • Orbital Defence Station -> [ED]
  • Orbital Patrol Base -> [ED]
Is that correct?

And some questions about sectors.

Is it correct that I consider ALL sectors that have only TOA as RSL? From my understanding RSL is a sector you cannot jump in, not only the sectors behind HSAP that one can claim. This is like an extension of its parent system that could be placed either behind HSAP or already placed TOA.

Your log shows some sector as "Unknown" but I then divide them into two groups: that could be claimed (I use the name 'Unclaimed' for those ones) and that couldn't. Is it the full list of unknown sectors that couldn't be claimed?
  • Freedom's Reach
  • The Void alpha
  • The Void eta
  • Savage Spur
  • Unknown Sector
What is Unknown Sector 23-19? Why does the game need it?

And the main question now:
Spoiler
Show
What do you hide north of Oort Cloud somewhere in dark space? :?
P.S. You can also check the latest version of German map (thanks @DanKara). But, please, ignore POI at the moment.
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Re: New FL-Universe map development. Need community help

Post by DanKara » Wed, 17. Aug 22, 07:09

iXenon wrote:
Tue, 16. Aug 22, 17:38
Is it correct that I consider ALL sectors that have only TOA as RSL?
IRRC the ingame encyclopedia / surival guide designate (only) the sectors behind a HSAP as 'Remote Sector Location' (RSL). I was a bit suprised when Cycrow (or Ketraar) used that term in a forum discussion for the then so-called Beta-sectors or HSAP-sectors.
It is my understanding that the word 'remote' implies in that context some long, long distances [but still within the same solar system]. I am not sure about the distances between Kingdoms End alpha and beta, but know the distances between Venus, Earth, Moon, Mars ... don't think you can call those places 'remote' to each other (in stellar context [better: by astronomical standards]).
But you are right too. All the alpha, beta, gamma, delta - places are but 'sector locations' within the same solar system we knew as 'sector' in previous games (of course aside of the SOL system).

iXenon wrote:
Tue, 16. Aug 22, 17:38
What is Unknown Sector 23-19? Why does the game need it?
AFAIK this is an unreachable and ingame hidden place, that is used as spawn-point by the game for missions and plots. Should be shown for reference only (as 'modders ressource'?).

iXenon wrote:
Tue, 16. Aug 22, 17:38
And the main question now:
Spoiler
Show
What do you hide north of Oort Cloud somewhere in dark space? :?
You may have noticed, that Cycrow released an unofficial patch 1.3.1 for X3FL. That sector and its owning pirate faction ist part of that patch. Just let us hope for EGOSOFT finding the time to sign it and make it official...


... and I would vote for the use of SY, ED, MO and HQ as POI - regardless of how the sector owning faction would call those. But putting the Goner Temple in the same category as the Companies HQ's feels weird...

[some Edits done after the follow-up post]
Last edited by DanKara on Wed, 17. Aug 22, 14:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New FL-Universe map development. Need community help

Post by iXenon » Wed, 17. Aug 22, 11:38

DanKara wrote:
Wed, 17. Aug 22, 07:09
It is my understanding that the word 'remote' implies in that context some long, long distances. I am not sure about the distances between Kingdoms End alpha and beta, but know the distances between Venus, Earth, Moon, Mars ... don't think you can call those places 'remote' to each other (in stellar context).
But you are right too. All the alpha, beta, gamma, delta - places are but 'sector locations' within the same solar system we knew as 'sector' in previous games (of course aside of the SOL system).

I had to think about it and I believe now I can explain it, being in the same lore. As you mentioned, the Survival Guide operates with terms "systems" and "sectors within systems". Now let's have a look at the term RSL. Referring to the example of "a milk chocolate bar" that means "a milk bar of chocolate", we can say that "remote system location" means "a remote location of the system". The words order matters and the "location" is the main word here. And the adjective "remote", as you have pointed out, means that one needs some time to get there. In other words, RSL means a location that's placed somewhere far away within the system, not the Universe. And we can see that all sectors with HSAP as well as all alpha-beta-gamma-an-so-on sectors are part of some system whether it's Argon Prime or Cardinal's Domain or whatever. And all Terran sectors (except the Brennan's Triumph delta, but it has a Gate) are parts of... Solar system! Thus, technically we meet the conditions and can refer to all those sectors as RSL, can't we?

Anyway, the map need some term to mark all the sectors the pilot cannot jump in and the RSL is the best candidate at the time being. :)
DanKara wrote:
Wed, 17. Aug 22, 07:09
... and I would vote for the use of SY, ED, MO and HQ as POI - regardless of how the sector owning faction would call those. But putting the Goner Temple in the same category as the Companies HQ's feels weird...
Agreed, so let's see what we have here. First, all trading ports/docks/stations are quite useless aren't going to be shown on the map. Second, Shipyards, Equipment Docks, Stock Exchanges, Military Outpost and Headquarters have clear names and will be represented as [SY], [ED], [SE], [MO] and [HQ], accordingly. Goner Temple and Xenon Hub are special rare objects, so [GT] and [HUB]. Xenon Station is obvious - [XS]. For Research Stations - [RS]. But the rest ones have to be renamed:

Code: Select all

The Marauder -> [SY]
Goner Dwarf -> [SY]
Military Base -> [MO]
Orbital Defense Station -> [MO]
Orbital Patrol Base -> [MO]
Argon Installation -> [RS]
Communication Facility -> [RS]
Dark Space Installation -> [RS]
Regarding Pirate Anarchy Ports and Pirate Bases I'd say it's better to mark them as [PAP] (or [AP]) and [PB]. These stations are special and have their own abbreviations in the game along with Goner Temple (GT). Does it make sense?

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Re: New FL-Universe map development. Need community help

Post by DanKara » Wed, 17. Aug 22, 14:10

iXenon wrote:
Wed, 17. Aug 22, 11:38
Anyway, the map need some term to mark all the sectors the pilot cannot jump in and the RSL is the best candidate at the time being. :)
So thats the heart of the matter regarding our different use of 'RSL'. But does it really need a special 'term'? You have already marked all the different TOA's (pre-placed and unlocked/build) in a darker shade of blue for the 'connector' indicating the lack of an 'jump-to-object'. Or... is it possible to replace the rectangular connectors with a wavy or zigzag line for TOA's to make them stand out even more (though not sure how that would look )?

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Re: New FL-Universe map development. Need community help

Post by Cycrow » Wed, 17. Aug 22, 15:22

for RSL, remote in this context means out of the way, difficult to get to, away from major population centers, etc. Not necessarily really far away.

For System vs sector, a TOA/HSAP connects to a sector within the same system, and jump gates connects to a different system. So all the Terran sectors are all within the same system (The solar system).

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Re: New FL-Universe map development. Need community help

Post by iXenon » Thu, 18. Aug 22, 13:39

DanKara wrote:
Wed, 17. Aug 22, 14:10
iXenon wrote:
Wed, 17. Aug 22, 11:38
Anyway, the map need some term to mark all the sectors the pilot cannot jump in and the RSL is the best candidate at the time being. :)
So thats the heart of the matter regarding our different use of 'RSL'. But does it really need a special 'term'? You have already marked all the different TOA's (pre-placed and unlocked/build) in a darker shade of blue for the 'connector' indicating the lack of an 'jump-to-object'. Or... is it possible to replace the rectangular connectors with a wavy or zigzag line for TOA's to make them stand out even more (though not sure how that would look )?
Because the engine counts the gates anyway and there is an internal flag for that, so it's only about if it will be shown or not. But after this discussion and @Cycrow's comment I think it's OK to show the RSL mark for those sectors. After all, the main idea is to have SVG when search works and one could find all sectors it isn't possible to jump in by pressing CTRL+F. And now I decided to use different color for those gates that are HSAPs at the beginning, but HSAPs that may not appear. It means if a "-beta" sector may appear or not, the "gate" color will let you know. Example:
https://iili.io/gA1B8Q.png]
It shows to the pilot that a HSAP searching and TOA building have to be done before using these TOA. But for the sectors where TOA are supposed to appear anyway (Brennan's Triumph delta and The Void alpha) it will show TOA instead for the same reason it shows "Sanctuary of Darkness" as a Xenon's sector - this is the only possible scenario.

And regarding RSL, it's also used for map customization. The engine supports it. If you want, just send me a brief description about your game map in free text form right here or via PM. What sectors didn't appear, what you have claimed, what have been claimed by NPC, if you put a jump beacon within a RSL system, if you renamed some sectors and what names you used and so on. And then a map for your personal X-Universe will be created.
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Re: New FL-Universe map development. Need community help

Post by iXenon » Thu, 18. Aug 22, 13:55

@X2-Illuminatus, @Cycrow, thank you for the provided game data and info, it was very helpful. I'm done with the map and about to share the public beta for bug hunting. My last question is about copyrighting. In this fan content I use some logos that I vectorised by open source tools. These images are related for the game content and, I believe, were created very long ago, probably, by fans, because the game itself doesn't have them. And I use a logo that's very close to Egosoft logo in LinkedIn. I spent some time looking through the Egosoft's site but found no info about trademarks, copyrights and so on. So, I'm pretty sure I'm not violating any rights, using these images, but have no evidence for obvious reasons. From my understanding, you both have been working with Egosoft for a long time. What do you think, from your experience as content creators, is it OK to use these images for freely distributed fan content like universe map I'm working on?

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Re: New FL-Universe map development. Need community help

Post by iXenon » Sat, 20. Aug 22, 17:28

I probably should have used quotation, because @ doesn't work on forums :)
X2-Illuminatus wrote: ...
Cycrow wrote: ...
Guys, what do you think about the question above?

P.S. Meanwhile created the logo and now thinking about the legend. Sometimes I think that the map is self-explaining, but it may worth to show that "The Marauder" is now "[SY]" and stuff like that.

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Re: New FL-Universe map development. Need community help

Post by X2-Illuminatus » Sun, 21. Aug 22, 15:02

Race logos are Egosoft content distributed as part of the X2 Webpack (see the end of the Bonus Materials download section for X2), and used for example in the X Encyclopedia or in older games (like X2). This content is specifically provided for use on fan websites. There's also this FAQ article explaining what kind of content from the games or soundtrack you can use under which terms.
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Re: New FL-Universe map development. Need community help

Post by iXenon » Tue, 23. Aug 22, 22:43

X2-Illuminatus wrote:
Sun, 21. Aug 22, 15:02
Race logos are Egosoft content distributed as part of the X2 Webpack (see the end of the Bonus Materials download section for X2), and used for example in the X Encyclopedia or in older games (like X2). This content is specifically provided for use on fan websites. There's also this FAQ article explaining what kind of content from the games or soundtrack you can use under which terms.
Thank you for the explanation, I added the info and links in the file.

Alright guys, please, use this link to download SVG file. It has two versions: EN and DE.
Spoiler
Show
You would need the password: "Savage Spur"
This is not an image this time, but a vector map. Open in it your browser and it should work there. The search will work as well.
Please, let me know about any mistakes you can observe there.
DanKara wrote:
Please, test as well. And if you want you can send me data for the customization. You can use this as a template:
Spoiler
Show

Code: Select all

{
  "Akeela's Beacon beta":       { "race": "Unclaimed", "title": "Akeela's Beacon|beta" },
  "Consecrated Fire beta":      { "race": "Unclaimed", "title": "Consecrated|Fire beta" },
  "Dark Waters beta":           { "race": "Unclaimed", "title": "Dark Waters|beta" },
  "Depths of Silence beta":     { "race": "Unclaimed", "title": "Depths of|Silence beta" },   
  "Duke's Citadel beta":        { "race": "Unclaimed", "title": "Duke's Citadel|beta" }, 
  "Family Rhonkar beta":        { "race": "Unclaimed", "title": "Family Rhonkar|beta" },
  "Gaian Star beta":            { "race": "Unclaimed", "title": "Gaian Star|beta" },
  "Harmony of Perpetuity beta": { "race": "Unclaimed", "title": "Harmony of|Perpetuity beta" },
  "Lasting Vengeance beta":     { "race": "Unclaimed", "title": "Lasting|Vengeance|beta" },
  "Light Water beta":           { "race": "Unclaimed", "title": "Light Water|beta" },
  "Lost Order beta":            { "race": "Unclaimed", "title": "Lost Order|beta" },
  "Maelstrom beta":             { "race": "Unclaimed", "title": "Maelstrom|beta" },
  "Menelaus' Paradise beta":    { "race": "Unclaimed", "title": "Menelaus'|Paradise beta" },
  "Midnight Star beta":         { "race": "Unclaimed", "title": "Midnight Star|beta" },
  "Nathan's Voyage beta":       { "race": "Unclaimed", "title": "Nathan's|Voyage beta" },
  "Preacher's Refuge beta":     { "race": "Unclaimed", "title": "Preacher's|Refuge beta" },
  "Profit Center Alpha B":      { "race": "Unclaimed", "title": "Profit Center|Alpha B" },
  "Quiet Tides beta":           { "race": "Unclaimed", "title": "Quiet Tides|beta" },
  "Rhonkar's Trial beta":       { "race": "Unclaimed", "title": "Rhonkar's Trial|beta" },
  "Shining Currents beta":      { "race": "Unclaimed", "title": "Shining|Currents|beta" },
  "Spaceweed Grove beta":       { "race": "Unclaimed", "title": "Spaceweed|Grove beta" },
  "Tears of Greed beta":        { "race": "Unclaimed", "title": "Tears of Greed|beta" },
  "Unclaimed Sector1":          { "race": "Unclaimed", "title": "Unclaimed|Sector" },
  "Unclaimed Sector2":          { "race": "Unclaimed", "title": "Unclaimed|Sector" },
  "Unclaimed Sector beta1":     { "race": "Unclaimed", "title": "Unclaimed|Sector beta" },
  "Unclaimed Sector beta2":     { "race": "Unclaimed", "title": "Unclaimed|Sector beta" },
  "Unclaimed Sector alpha":     { "race": "Unclaimed", "title": "Unclaimed|Sector alpha" },
  "Unseen Domain beta":         { "race": "Unclaimed", "title": "Unseen Domain|beta" }
} 
If you claimed a sector, put "You" in the "race", otherwise put the race name who claimed it, like "Boron". If you renamed a sector, then edit "title". If a sector didn't appear in your game, put "hidden": 1 there. If you placed a jump beacon in an RSL sector, put "jb": 1 there. Then remove everything that wasn't changed, for example if the race is still "Unclaimed" (for sectors that didn't appear) or the title is the same, just delete these parameters. The idea is to keep only that was changed. And you can provide the sector names you inserted the Hub between. Then send me that JSON back right here or in PM and I'll prepare customized map for you. Of course, this is optional and only if you want to have such map.

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Re: New FL-Universe map development. Need community help

Post by Terraformer33 » Sat, 10. Sep 22, 12:12

How to reach sector Quiet Tides Beta. It's possible ? There are any gates from Quiet Tides.

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Re: New FL-Universe map development. Need community help

Post by iXenon » Sat, 10. Sep 22, 15:02

Terraformer33 wrote:
Sat, 10. Sep 22, 12:12
How to reach sector Quiet Tides Beta. It's possible ? There are any gates from Quiet Tides.
Only about half of sectors would appear in the game and the exactly set varies. That happened in my game, for example, Quiet Tides Beta isn't there.
Try to visit in Quiet Tides, does LFL show something? If not, the sector most likely didn't appear.

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Re: New FL-Universe map development. Need community help

Post by Terraformer33 » Sat, 10. Sep 22, 21:10

Nothing. Thanks for info.

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Re: New FL-Universe map development. Need community help

Post by Terraformer33 » Thu, 29. Sep 22, 22:30

Why can't build TOA on every HASP. Explorers Guild don't give me chance to choose it. This is the bug :?: Does anyone have such a problem :gruebel:

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Re: New FL-Universe map development. Need community help

Post by iXenon » Fri, 30. Sep 22, 17:54

Terraformer33 wrote:
Thu, 29. Sep 22, 22:30
Why can't build TOA on every HASP. Explorers Guild don't give me chance to choose it. This is the bug :?: Does anyone have such a problem :gruebel:
Not sure about exactly numbers but the game has about 28 unclaimed sectors and only ~50% of them appear. And about ~40-50% of these appeared sectors you can claim. There is no way to claim all unclaimed sectors the game has, so other races will acquire some of them. But there is a trick that should help you get the sector you like. If there are more than one unclaimed sector and the sector you like is getting claimed by other race (it may happens in seconds after you activate the HSAP), then first activate HSAP to sector you don't need. It will be claimed by computer and then you can activate HSAP to other sector (which you like) and ask EG representative for the rights.

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Re: New FL-Universe map development. Need community help

Post by Terraformer33 » Sat, 8. Oct 22, 12:04

I found HSAP in sector Depths of Silence beta and I can't build TOA. Explorers Guild talk to me , you must find and etc etc etc..... Is this bug or what. :gruebel: I'm irritated :evil: Too many bugs.

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Re: New FL-Universe map development. Need community help

Post by UnknownObject » Sat, 8. Oct 22, 14:14

Terraformer33 wrote:
Sat, 8. Oct 22, 12:04
I found HSAP in sector Depths of Silence beta and I can't build TOA. Explorers Guild talk to me , you must find and etc etc etc..... Is this bug or what. :gruebel: I'm irritated :evil: Too many bugs.
It isn't a bug, this HSAP is meant to be claimed by Boron.
Another HSAP you can't build a TOA on it is either in Light Waters/Maelstrom.
Мир всем народам на свете.
Нам не нужна
Война!

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Re: New FL-Universe map development. Need community help

Post by iXenon » Sat, 8. Oct 22, 16:29

UnknownObject wrote:
Sat, 8. Oct 22, 14:14
Another HSAP you can't build a TOA on it is either in Light Waters/Maelstrom.
And, I believe, Duke's Citadel beta as well. Thus, we have two sector groups here where only one pair of sectors will appear:
  1. Duke's Citadel beta/Sanctuary of Darkness OR Depths of Silence beta/Sanctuary of Darkness
  • Light Water beta/Unknown Enemy Sector OR Maelstrom beta/Unknown Enemy Sector
The appeared pair of sectors cannot be claimed by player and that means you'll never have Xenon or Khaak among your neighbors.

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Re: New FL-Universe map development. Need community help

Post by iXenon » Sat, 8. Oct 22, 16:45

Meanwhile want to ask if someone had a chance to use this map, being played in X3FL. It's 99.5% done, but I haven't got any feedback since then. Speaking about myself, I took a break from the game, so had no opportunity to play with it. But I have plans to return to playing this year (or may be even start a new game) and, lastly, provide the final multi language version.

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