[Feedback] 7.00 Economy

[Ketraar]

Info
With 7.00 there have been a number of improvements, changes and adjustments done to address a plethora of issues and community feedback. To avoid cluttering the forum with feedback topics, we decided to create this one that can encompass most prominent changes and what we would like more focussed feedback. Note that when replying please make sure to be as detailed as possible and also make clear which of the listed items your feedback is for. Avoid debating other peoples feedback so we can keep this topic as constructive as possible.

Note that while these things are part of the current beta, it does not necessary imply that they are set in stone. We want your feedback and are open to adjustments, within reason.



Feedback Notes:

• Improved balancing of mineral and gas region yields across whole map.
  Here we are mostly looking for feedback on impact to existing games, but general feedback is good too. While there were some cuts in some locations, this should not impact the overall availability, in fact there should be more gases.
• Improved balancing of stellar output across all systems to match stars and locations.
  Following community feedback we adjusted the Stellar Output to match the star type and system look as much as possible to have a consistent "formula" across the map. This means that there is now much more variation, in both directions. Here too we are looking mostly for feedback on how much this impacts existing saves, but also general feedback as well.
• Improved ware allocation for wharfs, shipyards and equipment docks.
  The way shipyards, wharves and equipment docks allocated wares was adjusted to have a more sensible balance based on what is required to build and equip ships. In addition several of these stations were deemed to have too little storage and as such their construction plans were adjusted. This is also be patched to existing saves, so that these stations will eventually expand to add the additional storage.
• Improved price balancing for several MK2 weapons.
  Some weapons were asking for very high amounts of Advanced Electronics, which inflated the demand. As such we adjusted the pricing for some of those weapons to additional wares, but maintaining the price. The feedback that we are looking for here is if that impacts ships production, hopefully in a positive way and not have the now less inflated demand, improve the wharves production.
• Improved balancing of storage volume for S and M storage modules.
  Here we increased the capacity for some of the S and M modules. This has the effect that existing stations will end up with more storage, which may in short term have some impact in pricing, but will balance itself out. For new NPC stations this will impact the decisions they make on which modules to use and require less modules to achieve their desired storage capacity. If you note anything strange due to this please report.
• Several smaller fixes and improvements for Construction Vessels.
  We adjusted the jobs distribution to have some CV focus more on their own faction construction tasks. Also adjusted their logic to avoid them idling in enemy sectors. This should have a positive impact, especially to NPC construction. If you spot any problems with this please make a note.
• Build Storage of deconstructed NPC stations sell their wares first
  This will make so that the build storage of any station that has been deconstructed will try to sell the wares before the build storage gets removed. This should return at least a portion of the wares back to the economy. Please note if you find any issues with this.
• Improved miner decision-making
  This should improve the choice miners make where to mine, especially systems contested by hostile factions. They also should not clump together as much on one spot. Feedback on the impact of these is welcome.
• New Clusters
  Several new clusters have been added, some will have established economies some only resources. Feedback on the impact of those would also be appreciated.

Known Issues:

• TBA

[Darkhan]

Here's my 2 cents on changes that I have noticed so far

1- New sectors are very rich compared to everywhere else. Not a complaint but means miners will go to those almost exclusively now if within reach.

2- Mining decision: Station miners still like to go as far as possible. Would it be possible to add travel distance (sectors) penalty in the calculation.
ex: Station miners in Matrix #9 always go to Family Zhin, even though resources are only slightly higher in Zhin than Matrix #9
Let's say Station miner wants Ore. Matrix #9 is .69/km where Zhin is .82/km but 5 sectors away.
Is it worth the travel time for +.13/km ? Perhaps introduce a 10% better / sector travel bias ?
In this case, 50% (5 sectors) of .69 would be .345, thus making that specific spot less attractive.
Don't really know the code side of this, but something like this imho would be good change.

[Falcrack]

I have 6 local autominers, with full holds of silicon and in sectors where there is good demand for silicon, which are not selling their silicon automatically. See the attached save (they are in fleets 1, 2, and 3)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mLhT0c ... sp=sharing

[geldonyetich]

I started a new 7.0 game, the Teladi Entrepreneur start (sold very little personal inventory, haven't even unlocked HQ yet) in order to get a feel for how it's like to get an empire off the ground. I'm about 20 hours into a fresh version 528286 run, and a few points have stood out to me so far:

• I like how good the trade fleets are at getting trades done. There's surprisingly little unaddressed demand to be found unless I do long distance trading.
• It used to be that silicon wafers and refined metals were where most of the lucrative trades can consistently be found. Now the demand is so heavily saturated that silicon wafers are usually selling for more than anyone is willing to pay, and refined metals have only about a 20 credit/unit profit margin.
  • Consequently, I have found the best trades in Teladianium and Microchips because the supplying and demanding stations seem to be more than five sectors away from each other.
  • Either that, or to exclusively supply building stations and fleet supply ships, because the profit margins are not very attractive anywhere else.
• Far and away the easiest way to make money is by capturing ships. The Scale Plate loads up their ships with Mk3 equipment, lots of laser towers and mines, and other odd things whose only purpose is to be sold.
  • I can make about 1.5 million cr per Minotaur Raider and 6 million cr per Behemoth E just stripping most of their components to minimum levels at wharves/shipyards, outfitting them in mk2 weapons/shields at an equipment dock, keeping the ship to work for me and not counting its value towards those millions.
  • Honestly, if you want the ware economy to matter more in the early game economy, I would nerf this by making it so pirate ships never have better than mk2 gear.
  • And maybe nerf the burst beams and thermal disintegrators because stripping surface elements with them is effortless - at least torpedo volleys require an initial investment!
• The factions did not seem to react to huge shortage of shield components. I invested some of my captured ship money towards the blueprints and now it feels like I'm the sole supplier of them.

[HeinzS]

If a ZYA shipyard wants to buy 140,000 hull parts, the purchase price should be significantly higher than the average price of 209 Cr.

[jakotheshadows]

If a ZYA shipyard wants to buy 140,000 hull parts, the purchase price should be significantly higher than the average price of 209 Cr.

I've also been noticing something is really off with the automatic pricing this patch. I've had to turn it off on a few wares for specific stations otherwise they'd starve themselves of that ware by not pricing it correctly. It even gets to the point where the manager puts all their traders on that one ware but doesn't bother increasing the price beyond the minimum.

[TheDeliveryMan]

Yeah, autopricing is really odd. I've seen many NPC stations buying loads of energy cells or ore for less than min price.

Stations in Avarice are buying Protectyon for avarge price, Tidebreak sells is at almost max price, a few more tides and stations in Avarice will be gone.

[Scoob]

I've not really deep-dived into the economy yet, I started a fresh game for the Beta. However, something that has become apparent - which might just be luck of the seed I guess - is the total lack of any real demand for Ore and Silicon. Usually, very early-game, I scout out any stations that consume Ore and Silicon, then set up an appropriate mining operation. Miners will feed a Station of mine, other Miners will sell. As the Manager / individual Pilots level up, their trading range increases, which usually leads to them finding more buyers. The income from this very early-game station sustains me for days, financing much of my subsequent Station builds, until I can supply my own materials, usually from Recycling. This selling of Ore and Silicon eventually saturates the markets - but keeps the economies it feeds very healthy - and at this point I can divert resources to my own production needs as required, while still making consistent, but lower, profits.

However, this current game has presented no such opportunities yet. Stations consuming Ore and Silicon have been pretty rare thus far (I started in Argon space, Black Hole Sun) and what stations there are, are already very well supplied. So, there's no market for me, well, none that'll not be saturated very quickly if I added my own supply. As a result, I'm playing quite differently to my usual early-game, due to that lack of demand.

The side effect of this isn't just financial, though I'm making money at a very slow rate, without that (previously) reliable passive income, but also reputational. With numerous ships all selling Raw resources to any buyer, my standings with the various factions would rise quickly.

I did try to field some auto-traders early-on, as I'd captured some M-Class Transporters. However, I'd forgotten how limited the basic Autotrader is, being restricted to ONE ware in ONE sector. Again, perhaps due to luck of the seed, none of the Argon sectors I've been operating in have a ware that's both produced and consumed, and can be traded at a profit. Even Energy Cells. It's a shame that I effectively have to move a trained Explorer or a Trained Fighter pilot to get a better Autotrader. I'd hoped they've be able to find enough work at the basic level to train themselves up, but that's not the case. I'll need to check if I've picked up any seminars, and also check for any clusters that might give more options for a rookie Autotrader.

This perhaps simply means that the economy is working perfectly well without me, which of course it should. However, there are usually more opportunities during the early game stages, especially for Ore, Silicon and sometimes Energy Cells too. I'm just not seeing that this game. It's more usual for me to see demand for Ore and Silicon massively out-stripping supply, giving some fantastic opportunities. I'd regularly find work for a basic Autominer - where there's solid demand in a sector where the resource is present - and definitely for my "Mining Hub" approach, where I can ship resources to other stations if needed, to extent my selling range and really exploit a rich resource area.

Anyway, this is just how a fresh v7.0 Beta 1 game has been for me. Perhaps it's different due to the balance changes, perhaps just an artifact of the Universe seed.

[LameFox]

Until the pricing thing is sorted I am not even sure how to assess the impact of anything else on the economy.



In the mean time, the new sectors are nice. I think the pirate alley (if one was willing to destroy such a rarity) would make a somewhat decent player territory now... assuming you are willing to swipe the TEL and PAR systems on the end. That is nice because, at least for someone like me who likes to be kind of isolated in my own space rather than mingle with the other factions, there have not historically been many places to go initially unless you get lucky with Xenon wiping someone's core sectors.

And I guess still somewhat economy related, it's nice to have a place to potentially DO some pirating, because ships can't pass through it as immediately as with Nopileos' Fortune and its very nearby gates.

A bit unsure about Freedom's Reach. I used to like that one in X3 but I don't know what I could realistically do there now. HOP don't really seem like they will lack for energy cells so the system is just something of an economic curiosity for now.

[Ketraar]

A bit unsure about Freedom's Reach. I used to like that one in X3 but I don't know what I could realistically do there now. HOP don't really seem like they will lack for energy cells so the system is just something of an economic curiosity for now.

Currently these systems have faction logic blocked, but this may change for the 2 not part of pirate alley, so HOP might get interested in it.

And yes the pricing issue is being looked into, for now you can just have a look at the systems stats and state if it impacts your established station too much. Especially in those places where stellar output was cut, I guess no one is going to complain in those cases where they now produce more.

MFG

Ketraar

[vr01]

Hi Ketraar,

Not sure if it related to the changes but made most sense to post here:

I am seeing improved response from "Trade for commander..." subordinates keeping my shipyard well fed with products from my other supplying factories. I have a shipyard in Silent Witness XI in my game with 10 S/M, 10 L and 4 XL ship production modules producing ships for everybody. It also produces energy cells but imports all other products from my other factories in the same sector. In current 6.2 it would struggle to keep it supplied with Hull Parts even though I have more than enough production in other my other factories to keep it supplied, along with 40+ traders.

After a couple of hours in 7.00B1 it already has Hull Parts up to 200K, whilst continuing to import all other items from other production facilities and keeping up with the shipyard production. Definitely an improvement and haven't seen any downsides so far on keeping my supply chains well fed...

[LameFox]

Build Storage of deconstructed stations sell their wares first
This will make so that the build storage of any station that has been deconstructed will try to sell the wares before the build storage gets removed. This should return at least a portion of the wares back to the economy. Please note if you find any issues with this.

I have tried deconstructing and deleting stations twice now. Each time the build storage is there and it has the wares in it. However I cannot see any trade offers on it and it's not clear if there's any way I can create some. The wares just chill there until I remove them via a transfer.

This is nice in a way as I might want to come get them, but I'd like to be able to tell it somehow to just sell them off, if in theory I don't need them myself.

Here for instance, there is a small one near my shipyard: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lrgy6o ... sp=sharing

[Ketraar]

I have tried deconstructing and deleting stations twice now. Each time the build storage is there and it has the wares in it. However I cannot see any trade offers on it and it's not clear if there's any way I can create some. The wares just chill there until I remove them via a transfer.

Yes my bad, should have made it clear in the text. This is for NPC stations, since player build storages don't get removed you still need to use the transfer wares command as usual. I have adjusted the text in the OP to make this clear now.

Not sure if it related to the changes but made most sense to post here:

I am seeing improved response from "Trade for commander..." subordinates keeping my shipyard well fed with products from my other supplying factories. I have a shipyard in Silent Witness XI in my game with 10 S/M, 10 L and 4 XL ship production modules producing ships for everybody. It also produces energy cells but imports all other products from my other factories in the same sector. In current 6.2 it would struggle to keep it supplied with Hull Parts even though I have more than enough production in other my other factories to keep it supplied, along with 40+ traders.

After a couple of hours in 7.00B1 it already has Hull Parts up to 200K, whilst continuing to import all other items from other production facilities and keeping up with the shipyard production. Definitely an improvement and haven't seen any downsides so far on keeping my supply chains well fed...

Thanks for the feedback. Yes there have been more improvements that may not be listed here. These are the more focussed areas we want feedback from, but its always OK to state any feedback wrt to economy.

MFG

Ketraar

[TroubledRabbit]

Well I am at the 2nd game day and economy is still bonkers. Producers in the upper chain act as they are stuffed up (which is not the truth at this point, they burned their 'starting bounty' already) and prices are nonsense. Lower chain is unable to sell its stuff because 'minimal price' (they did not put their prices at minimal anyway). I am forcing my miners to sell by repeated orders (automine simply does not work in such conditions) just to train the crews.

I thought that this artificial deflation will be gone at this point in the game - 'bad ant-people' managed to conquer the 2nd contact, neither the EMpire nor Argons seems to care much, there is a lot of stuff lying around, prices should react and market moved, but not.

Maybe (maybe) it is a side effect of increased number of stations? I dunno.

[geldonyetich]

Interestingly, about 28 hours into a new 7.0 game, all of the major factions are doing a pretty good job of holding back the Xenon, even pushing them out in places, like Matrix 451 which is now owned by the Teladi.

You can see for yourself in my latest save: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hiokVI ... drive_link

They're doing quite well considering I only supplied them with shield components, energy cells, and helped their Teladianium and Refined Metals get around.

I think it's probably a combination of the improved fleet AI, improved trader AI, and the improved economy providing enough wares that there's little in the way of true shortages.

[Scoob]

Hull Parts and Claytronics are pretty scarce in my current game, around ten hours in. Usually, these would be a little more robust. However, I usually have quite a large Ore and Silicon business going by this game stage, feeding the "Tier 1" economy. As mentioned previously though, there's little demand for Ore and Silicon. I've found some niche buyers - they're generally buying at rock-bottom prices - but it's allowing a couple of stand-alone Autominers to make some passive income. I'm also selling a few surplus Energy Cells from the HQ in Heretic's End, but my early-game really isn't pulling in the credits I'd usually manage, primarily due to the whole "mining hub" thing not being viable in my game currently.

I'm starting a recycling operation, so Claytronics and Hull Parts for my own builds will be taken care of, but the economy isn't as robust as it sometimes is. Once I have sufficiently skilled Pilots, I'll set some Auto-traders going, so hopefully they'll give the economy a bit of a kick. I understand from reading other posts that there's some sort of pricing problem? I don't know if that's the route cause of the economy being a bit weak.

[geldonyetich]

I think the thing about ore and silicon is that there’s effectively an unlimited supply. The combination of improved miner AI and additional resource fields means stations are getting slammed with solid wares if they express the least bit interest in buying any. And this might be one of those cases where a simulation ends up mirroring real life too well. How valuable should ore and silicon really be if any schmuck with a mining rig can find it in excess just a few minutes from the refinery? About the only thing spurring interest in the refinery to run at all is if their stock is low, but usually it’s pretty high.

[Killin_Kilo]

FACTION DESTROYING BUG. The Riptide Rakers are almost gone in a new game because of the economy changes. Something is busted with the demand of protecyon. Stations have no protectyon but have low demand so buying for 25k each. Meanwhile Tidebreak has low supply so selling protectyon for 27k each. Result is no stations are buying protectyon and are getting obliterated by the tide. Something needs to be adjusted in Averice.

[wilsonlaizo]

I started a new game with the recommended Boron start and the universe feels very different from 6.0.

Xenon is as tame as they can be, I see some Xenon incursions, but 15 hours in, I only saw 1 single L Xenon traveling around (in Second Contact II). Even Zya, which should be mostly destroyed at this point, is doing completely fine, with just Family Zhynn starting to get some Xenon Stations around. But no real threat to be decimated.

I particularly see LOTS of demand for ore and Silicon in my universe, it's just that they are all buying for below the minimum price, usually 110.XX. It looks like instead of varying between 111 and the max price, it's varying between 110 and 111. So, my miners are not selling. Maybe the same is happening for Xen and because of that they are producing less ships, after all, their economy is based on Ore and Silicon.

I haven't started trading yet, but doing the Teleportation research I noticed that construction materials are flowing just fine. In the previous patch, at this point, everyone was struggling with Hull Parts and Claytronics. The material for the research itself on the other hand are harder to come by, like Advanced Electronics. The research requires a lot of it, and no one is delivering, so, I had to do it myself.

The Wharfs and Shipyards are mostly fine as well. At this point most of them would be starving, but now they are all ok. You can order basically any ship and they will be produced, maybe with some delay, but still be produced pretty quickly.

I noticed more stations for NPC factions as well, probably because of them not lacking station building materials, but they are doing fine.

Although I do see ships around, HOP vs ARG/ANT war died down and they are doing less and less incursions.

In the meanwhile, as the low price is fixed, I'm advancing the quests to see if that will affect the economy as a whole.

[LameFox]

Just to note, I've had a shipyard and wharf running for a while now and have not had to mess with their ware allocation. This is despite having a primarily Terran economy and using Closed Loop so I can sell to VIG/RIP, as well as produce Nomads because the Terran supply ship is unacceptably slow. So it's coping pretty well with that strange mixture.