[FEEDBACK]New Paranid Carrier can only carry 16 fighters? - WAI.

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Re: New Paranid Carrier can only carry 16 fighters? - WAI.

Post by mr.WHO » Sat, 22. Jan 22, 16:24

Especially that the ship model is HUGE!
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... 2726996450

If launch/recovery speed is a factor, then why not add more landing pads and launch tubes?

I can easily see space for 2x or maybe even 3x S landing pads on designated "landing" surface alone.

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Re: New Paranid Carrier can only carry 16 fighters? - WAI.

Post by Sassbarman » Sat, 22. Jan 22, 20:15

Pejot wrote:
Sat, 22. Jan 22, 08:42
I like the change. This is fast carrier that can get in place before enemy reinforcements. It also fits paranid lore about their need of personal space.
Fair enough, but I still think it’s a confounding and unnecessary change considering it’s already been stated that no other ships in the game have had their capacity’s changed.

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Re: New Paranid Carrier can only carry 16 fighters? - WAI.

Post by Pejot » Sat, 22. Jan 22, 20:35

Sassbarman wrote:
Sat, 22. Jan 22, 20:15
Pejot wrote:
Sat, 22. Jan 22, 08:42
I like the change. This is fast carrier that can get in place before enemy reinforcements. It also fits paranid lore about their need of personal space.
Fair enough, but I still think it’s a confounding and unnecessary change considering it’s already been stated that no other ships in the game have had their capacity’s changed.

It was also mentioned that all of them will be changed and one of the possibilities is 2x docks for max number of ships.
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Re: New Paranid Carrier can only carry 16 fighters? - WAI.

Post by Alith-Ahnar » Sat, 22. Jan 22, 20:55

Pejot wrote:
Sat, 22. Jan 22, 20:35
Sassbarman wrote:
Sat, 22. Jan 22, 20:15
Pejot wrote:
Sat, 22. Jan 22, 08:42
I like the change. This is fast carrier that can get in place before enemy reinforcements. It also fits paranid lore about their need of personal space.
Fair enough, but I still think it’s a confounding and unnecessary change considering it’s already been stated that no other ships in the game have had their capacity’s changed.

It was also mentioned that all of them will be changed and one of the possibilities is 2x docks for max number of ships.
No.
There was no such statement.

All the Paranid Capital Ships would end up with a rework primarily driven because of Visual shortcomings compared to newer Ships.
Followed by this is expensive, and we are not sure if there will be a repeat with other Vanilla Faction Assets.
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Re: New Paranid Carrier can only carry 16 fighters? - WAI.

Post by AngryPerson » Sun, 23. Jan 22, 00:36

The new ship moglials look great, but again have strange characteristics. 16 fighters are very few. For example, current aircraft carriers carry about 50 aircraft on board.

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Re: New Paranid Carrier can only carry 16 fighters? - WAI.

Post by Alm888 » Sun, 23. Jan 22, 07:17

Come on!
Paranid ships (ugly looks aside) are the most OP ships in the base game. Zeus has more turrets than Colossus and flies better. Odysseus as well has an advantage over Behemoth in: speed, number of L-turrets, range and M-dock capacity (not to mention HOP tends to cluster its destroyers in 7-8 unit groups, giving ANT with ita 3-ship "fleet" no chances).

I think Zeus/Odysseus nerf is in order. Paranid ships need some weak points (apart from cost that means little if a faction is well-supplied).

As far as my tastes go: Zeus 20 ships, Colossus 50 ships, Condor 70 ships.

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Re: New Paranid Carrier can only carry 16 fighters? - WAI.

Post by Alith-Ahnar » Sun, 23. Jan 22, 08:17

Alm888 wrote:
Sun, 23. Jan 22, 07:17
Come on!
Paranid ships (ugly looks aside) are the most OP ships in the base game. Zeus has more turrets than Colossus and flies better. Odysseus as well has an advantage over Behemoth in: speed, number of L-turrets, range and M-dock capacity (not to mention HOP tends to cluster its destroyers in 7-8 unit groups, giving ANT with ita 3-ship "fleet" no chances).

I think Zeus/Odysseus nerf is in order. Paranid ships need some weak points (apart from cost that means little if a faction is well-supplied).

As far as my tastes go: Zeus 20 ships, Colossus 50 ships, Condor 70 ships.
Let us compare it to the Colossus everyone loves the Argnu.
So 2 M-Turrets are worth 24 Fighter, 1 XL-Shield Slot?

And I thought for a second the comment would not be in good faith.
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Re: New Paranid Carrier can only carry 16 fighters? - WAI.

Post by capitalduty » Sun, 23. Jan 22, 10:42

Alm888 wrote:
Sun, 23. Jan 22, 07:17
Come on!
Paranid ships (ugly looks aside) are the most OP ships in the base game. Zeus has more turrets than Colossus and flies better. Odysseus as well has an advantage over Behemoth in: speed, number of L-turrets, range and M-dock capacity (not to mention HOP tends to cluster its destroyers in 7-8 unit groups, giving ANT with ita 3-ship "fleet" no chances).

I think Zeus/Odysseus nerf is in order. Paranid ships need some weak points (apart from cost that means little if a faction is well-supplied).

As far as my tastes go: Zeus 20 ships, Colossus 50 ships, Condor 70 ships.
I am ok that Paranid ships should have different stats that other factions, but carrier storage capacity been changed its against the whole purpose of having a XL carrier in the first place! Paranid carrier are only for faction Godrealm of the Paranid (PAR) and Duke's Buccaneers (BUC)...does not affect HOP that are enemies of ARG. Yes it could have lower capacity than others but definitely more than 25 for sure.

IMO More than a nerf for Paranid ships i would love to have upgrades to "fleet numbers in jobs file" for Argon/Ant when some relevant thresholds have been met during a long gameplay session. Right now it basically stays static and never can match up against HOP or Paranid superior technology and fleet composition even during late game. Only Player intervention can change the outcome of battles, this could be a lot more interesting especially during late game.

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Re: New Paranid Carrier can only carry 16 fighters? - WAI.

Post by Kajar » Mon, 24. Jan 22, 07:52

I find this change rather curious indeed. It seemed weird that the majority of L and XL ships do have the same 40 S and 10 M capacity.
However, i found the capacity of little practical use.
I have currently 600 fighters which are supplied by just 2 Storck and 1 Colossus without any problems. They just fly in, dock, get repaired and launch again. There is no advantage to keeping things docked, if anything it is a disadvantage because your fighters take longer to react if they have to take off first.
It is an oddity in statistics, but has basically zero impact on my end of the gameplay.

Zeus E i might buy purely for the speed and its ability to relocate relatively quickly to supply the fighters.
As for the Oddy, the new one is the fastest destroyer in the market, but still the most squishy out of the bunch with the worst main guns. Only use for it i got is a fast response patrol vessel, because it is simply too soft to survive on the front lines.

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Re: [FEDDBACK]New Paranid Carrier can only carry 16 fighters? - WAI.

Post by FatalKeks » Mon, 24. Jan 22, 14:26

Seems like curious decision to me. Is it cheaper compared to other carriers?
What are the advantages that really justify such a low ship capacity?

However I think a rebalancing for ship capacity all over the board would be fine. But for only one ship it seems strange.

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Re: [FEDDBACK]New Paranid Carrier can only carry 16 fighters? - WAI.

Post by Shepp » Mon, 24. Jan 22, 14:32

Not a big fan of the change for the carrier. I'm fine with the destroyers capacity being lowered, and also think it wouldn't hurt to reduce fighter capacity on all of the destroyer class ships. Its just that carriers are well; supposed to be carriers. Even if they made the capacity around 30S/ 10M to offset the speed boost that would get that. As it sits right now Egosoft has gone to all of the work to create better looking ships and then actively worked to keep people from wanting to use them.

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Re: [FEDDBACK]New Paranid Carrier can only carry 16 fighters? - WAI.

Post by -=SiR KiLLaLoT=- » Mon, 24. Jan 22, 16:07

By carefully observing the real proportions of L and XL ships, I was able to create a list of S and M ships that could actually be positioned within the hypothetical space intended for them and the result was this.

Asgard: 6 M 12 S
Syn: 9 S
Osaka: 8 S
Tokyo: 2 M 36 S

Raptor: 4 M 126 S
Rattlesnake: 12 S

Colossus: 12 M 96 S
Behemoth: 20 S

Zeus: 16 M 80 S
Odysseus: 2 M 6 S

Condor: 3 M 12 S
Phoenix: 8 S

I think these numbers somehow make sense :roll:

I think Devs have to define ship numbers by the real size of things. Then then create an overall balance of speed/shields/turrets/hulls/firepower to test everything on.
If we continue in this way, much more complex new work will have to be done as future ships and races are introduced.
So having a real yardstick like that of size would make more sense in my opinion.
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Re: [FEDDBACK]New Paranid Carrier can only carry 16 fighters? - WAI.

Post by j.harshaw » Mon, 24. Jan 22, 16:50

-=SiR KiLLaLoT=- wrote:
Mon, 24. Jan 22, 16:07
I think Devs have to define ship numbers by the real size of things. Then then create an overall balance of speed/shields/turrets/hulls/firepower to test everything on.
If we continue in this way, much more complex new work will have to be done as future ships and races are introduced.
So having a real yardstick like that of size would make more sense in my opinion.
It is. Size and geometry are bases from which initial numbers are derived before factoring in modifiers. Necessary so that objects of a certain size move in very roughly the same manner and you don't see things like Xenon Is turning like fighters. This is why, for example, paranid ships tend to be fast, but a very large paranid ship won't be much faster, or at all faster, than say a very small teladi ship which uses the same engines. Size is not well communicated in the game, however.

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Re: [FEDDBACK]New Paranid Carrier can only carry 16 fighters? - WAI.

Post by -=SiR KiLLaLoT=- » Mon, 24. Jan 22, 19:06

I can imagine that you have made such a calculation, but I wonder where 30 M ships can be hidden inside a Raptor :P

The list above refers to a count of "rectangles" visually verified by entering the ship textures via the exterior view, and there are some combinations like that of the Raptor or Tokyo that don't make sense, at least for M ships.
Even if they had been disassembled, 30 Cobras (a random M-ship) would not be able to fit inside a Raptor ...

It's that kind of proportion that I can't understand.
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Re: [FEDDBACK]New Paranid Carrier can only carry 16 fighters? - WAI.

Post by Mr_Cossack » Mon, 24. Jan 22, 23:39

It's seem so odd that the Destroyer can take over 40 ships but this dedicated carrier can only carry 16? from a gameplay point of view i feel like it will just make it obsolete and no one except a.i will use it? unless i am missing something here?

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Re: [FEDDBACK]New Paranid Carrier can only carry 16 fighters? - WAI.

Post by A5PECT » Tue, 25. Jan 22, 03:53

Well that explains why carriers don't have enough cargo space to refit all of their fighters; most of them weren't supposed to dock 40 fighters to begin with

I'm all for diversifying carriers through docking counts. I'm open to lowering docking counts across the board, but I'd like to see those changes introduced all at once. Putting out the changes to Paranid ships only isn't useful for testing and feedback. It just serves to confuse users and give them wrong impressions ("oh noes, they're nerfing paranid!!!11!11!!")
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Re: [FEDDBACK]New Paranid Carrier can only carry 16 fighters? - WAI.

Post by dougeye » Tue, 25. Jan 22, 07:04

To be honest the only way to describe all the new paranoid capital ships is "style over substance"
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Re: [FEDDBACK]New Paranid Carrier can only carry 16 fighters? - WAI.

Post by grimgore » Tue, 25. Jan 22, 10:25

I also have to say something about it. I have tried to understand it, but it just doesn't make sense. Just imagine! 50km distance between an enemy L destroyer or L freighter. The Zeus E releases its fighters 16+8 max. The freighter/destroyer e.g. Behemoth max 44. There is a fight, what will happen? Simply impossible to accept. A carrier the size of a Zeus E must not be so weak. No speed buff justifies such a capacity nerf. Unless Zeus E is equipped with a lot of additional firepower. You have to consider how strong S ships can be in this game. What a difference 10 more or less can make :gruebel: . Either you adjust everything or the game loses a lot of credibility. I can't get this out of my head in the game :lol: it kind of bothers me. No matter if it's a single player. It has to fit.

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Re: [FEDDBACK]New Paranid Carrier can only carry 16 fighters? - WAI.

Post by A5PECT » Tue, 25. Jan 22, 12:18

grimgore wrote: The Zeus E releases its fighters 16+8 max. The freighter/destroyer e.g. Behemoth max 44.
This is what I was talking about. Players are going to keep making these comparisons until you show us the rest of your plans for L and XL ship storage counts.

Of course 16 vs 40 doesn't make sense, the two ships are following different design rules. If the Behemoth followed the rule set forth by the Zeus E - i.e. 1 landing pad = 2 units of ship storage- it would only have 8 S ship slots. This would not only make for a much better comparison of the Behemoth the Zeus E, but also between other large ships:

Behemoth to Odysseus
2 L turrets vs. 3 L turrets, but 8 S ships vs. 4 S ships
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Re: [FEDDBACK]New Paranid Carrier can only carry 16 fighters? - WAI.

Post by SirBerrial » Tue, 25. Jan 22, 12:40

A5PECT wrote:
Tue, 25. Jan 22, 12:18
2 L turrets vs. 3 L turrets, but 8 S ships vs. 4 S ships
Yeah, but S ships on non-carriers are annoying.
If the other cap ship types get vastly cut capacities, but gain carrier logic and ability to perform repairs on docked subordinate ships (no resupply/no refits), carriers with their capacities and resupply/refit abilities would still hhave their niche to fill, and s/m ships would becme far more user-friendly for the destroyers and will become a factor in choosing a ship.

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