Bombers not reacting to enemy capital ships

[Xkuka]

I am posting this in the Scripts and Modding section because I was told by mods that whenever the game is modified posts have to be posted here, just in case someone is wondering.

I am currently giving the carrier game play another shot. Got two Colossus, one Atlas Aux. 40 S interceptors, 12 M interceptors, 30 S Bombers armed with heavy torps. Also an Odysseus is in the bomber role to see if the issue with bombers has to do with docked ships or if the bombard command is simply not working at all.

My fleets are in Tharka's Cascase XVII, my Destroyer fleet is busy making scrap out of Xenon stations and the Carrier group is supposed to hold the line against incoming fleets form Matrix#79B.
The interceptors do their job, they attack any S/M ships that come in the 40km radius of the carries, but the bombers do most of the time not react to incoming Xenon capitals. They do sometimes, and then they shred them into pieces.
Not even the Odysseus is reacting, so I assume it has nothing to do with the "reactive docking" mod. Apparently the bombard order is massively screwed right now or Egosoft has changed something to it and not made any notes about how to use it. I know it was working reliable in earlier versions (6.0 beta and before) of the game, but right now (6.2) it does not.

Does anyone has an Idea what is going on? Maybe someone with a vanilla game to verify this is actually a base game issue?
I have tried making work and changed the formation order, carrier as lead ships, carrier following and so on. Of course I do not want the carrier itself to attack but passively send its fighters.

Thanks.

[Xkuka]

After some more testing I am sure the attack trigger for bombers has changed. Meaning, its not the 40km bubble around the ship like it is with interceptors. But I have no clue what it actually is.
I had the carrier group parking directly next to the gate and the carriers assigned as defender to the lead ship. In that scenario the bombers worked just fine. But that isn't a healthy idea, especially when 4 or more Xenon capitals come through the gate. After moving the group to a distance of 50km away from the gate and have the Xenon coming closer that way, bombers did not work any more.

I can't let carriers actively engage in combat, not only will that kill the carriers but also endanger any ship that is in a docking loop. But if that is actually necessary to have bombers work, I must ask the lovely people from Egosoft what the heck they are expecting from players to use these expensive toys? I don't need them, with KUDA AI tweaks my destroyers can do all the work. But that is boring. Now it seems carriers are made impossible to use, I don't get it.

[Xkuka]

Small update: kind of confirmed what I was thinking, A Xenon moved between the formation of my carriers and starts shooting at my lead ship and then the bombers start working. So absolutely useless. If that was an I it would simply wipe out the entire group before its shields are down. ffs...

[naisha]

Aren't there any mods for this I wonder? I was just about to play with some carriers and bombers myself but after reading this I'm thinking better not.

[chew-ie]

Small update: kind of confirmed what I was thinking, A Xenon moved between the formation of my carriers and starts shooting at my lead ship and then the bombers start working. So absolutely useless. If that was an I it would simply wipe out the entire group before its shields are down. ffs...

Carriers are far from useless. The moment I deploy carriers sectors are basically under my control. But you _HAVE_ to play by the book here. A carrier is no destroyer which flies around and randomly attacks stuff. Instead it is a mobile base which eventually controls a potion of space. In other words - you have to use the position defense command. Squads will then react according to their role assignment before joining the position defense. You still can hold back squads for manual control (e.g. the A-team for manual attack runs on hihg priority targets). That's how carrier automation works since 6.0. Picture:

Lockdown of Family Zhinn

[Xkuka]

Aren't there any mods for this I wonder? I was just about to play with some carriers and bombers myself but after reading this I'm thinking better not.

If you know how to work around some silly limitations it is not too bad. Supply can be a major headache for instance if you use any type of missile. But there are ways to make it work, the biggest thing is to use closed cycle build mode so you don't waste storage space for equipment that is barely used especially on a carrier. The thing right now that really annoys me is that they seem to have changed how the bombers react to enemies, interceptors still work. So it is impossible to use a carrier to guard a Xenon gate without some additional measures.

[Xkuka]

Carriers are far from useless. The moment I deploy carriers sectors are basically under my control. But you _HAVE_ to play by the book here. A carrier is no destroyer which flies around and randomly attacks stuff. Instead it is a mobile base which eventually controls a potion of space. In other words - you have to use the position defense command. Squads will then react according to their role assignment before joining the position defense. You still can hold back squads for manual control (e.g. the A-team for manual attack runs on hihg priority targets). That's how carrier automation works since 6.0.

I gotta try if position defence really acts in the role of the fighters used, it wasn't the case when I tested the new feature during the 6.0 beta and I actually suggested to make that possible but apparently I missed it. lol
But you still got to wonder why bombers don't work from the deck/formation any more, that makes no sense. I have mostly no use to control an entire sector but only choke points and for that scenario a stationary carrier is all I am asking for.
Meanwhile the patrol command is actually working so a carrier for anti Khaak patrol is not necessary, a couple of corvettes with fighters in a mimic patrol fleet work perfectly fine in infested areas.

Of course a carrier is no destroyer, why would I complain otherwise? What are we talking about and what is the "book" you mention? If the group with the carrier has ships in the bombard role, destroyers and torp fighters, then they have to defend the perimeter that is what they are for. There is absolutely nothing to question about that.
If bombard role = Do bombard job. Period
How players use it has not to be dictated by arbitrary rules.

[naisha]

Small update: kind of confirmed what I was thinking, A Xenon moved between the formation of my carriers and starts shooting at my lead ship and then the bombers start working. So absolutely useless. If that was an I it would simply wipe out the entire group before its shields are down. ffs...

Carriers are far from useless. The moment I deploy carriers sectors are basically under my control. But you _HAVE_ to play by the book here. A carrier is no destroyer which flies around and randomly attacks stuff. Instead it is a mobile base which eventually controls a potion of space. In other words - you have to use the position defense command. Squads will then react according to their role assignment before joining the position defense. You still can hold back squads for manual control (e.g. the A-team for manual attack runs on hihg priority targets). That's how carrier automation works since 6.0. Picture:

Lockdown of Family Zhinn

I know you can work around various limitations but why should we have to do that?
There is enough micromanagement in the game as it is (at least for me). I would like that when i assign ships to a carrier, the carrier should automate their roles properly. Maybe im just saying this because ive been playing X3:AP Mayhem 3 Renegades which is awesome in this regard. Ships assigned to a carrier get managed by the carrier and it works very well. They all do what they are supposed to do.
And dont get me started on fleets in general .. X4 is so much behind that mod for X3.

Thats what i think anyway.

[Xkuka]

Squads will then react according to their role assignment before joining the position defense.

You got me excited for a moment but I am testing this and my torp fighters that where on bombard role are going to attack other fighters with their heavy torpedoes.
Which also means that fighter interceptors will jump the next K and die
So nothing has changed.
I actually suggested moving the "position defence" order to the drop down selection where "docked/launched" is so you can actually still control the role.

[Xkuka]

They all do what they are supposed to do.
And dont get me started on fleets in general .. X4 is so much behind that mod for X3.

Thats what i think anyway.

Exactly. Or mention Lucikes Script Collection for X3, the entire fleet operation automated including ship resupplying and personal transfers, designated ship roles and duties, patrols around the main group and scout ships extending the range. Heck they even had a rescue service to pick up bailed pilots. And that was like a decade ago.

I don't think it is asked too much to at least to have the very basics working properly and in a way that is close to a common understanding.

I guess I even understand why Egosoft tries to not overcomplicate the game, but they are going the wrong direction I think. How many more players would be appealed to this game when the fleet combat wouldn't be such a micro hell but with some proper management functions.

[Xkuka]

Perhaps I found the issue with the bombers. It seems when the carrier is the leading ship and "position defence" is active (but not necessarily used) on the carrier bombers seem to work, including with the mod "reactive docking". Don't know if destroyer escorts in the bomber role work in that condition yet.
However, that is one of these silly limitations. Originally the carriers where supposed to follow a battleship, as a support element for my strike fleet, but as subordinates they lose functionality. That also means my idea to have two Colossus with a total of 80 fighters only works if the second Colossus only carries interceptors.

Workaround, workaround, workaround....

Another issue is that my two interceptor squads attack capitals too hen they receive fire from them. And that is an old issue. An interceptor should not try to shoot down a Xenon K that is just dumb. Luckily when the bombers do their job the K will not last long but a light fighter might not last long too.

[dansken]

Don't know why it isn't working for you, but this setup works fine for me:


https://ibb.co/NtrNxXv

Got one Asgard as the fleet leader (set to protect position), with the Tokyo carrier set to 'attack with commander'. (Don't worry, it does not attempt to get close to the enemy, but it will launch it's fighers as appropriate.)

The carrier has a few wings of S-size fighters set to 'intercept' which deals with the smaller enemies, and one wing of S-size bombers set to 'bombard' ... and they do launch when any L or XL enemies gets close.

I also have one Syn (with three subordinates) assigned to the Asgard with 'bombard' orders. It will also attack any L/XL enemies, although the bombers often get there first.

The Honshu resupply ship mostly works as expected, although the cargo capacity is not large enough to fully resupply the Syns with dumbfire missiles. It's easy enough to load up a few hundres missiles manually, though ... and the Baldric subordinates do go out to get fresh supplies for the Honshu.

I am running Kuda AI tweaks.

[Xkuka]

Don't know why it isn't working for you....
I am running Kuda AI tweaks.

I am running Kuda too. The difference might be the "protect position" order. And I often don't like to use it for carriers as the moving around can create all sorts of other issues especially when I am in the area too. And I like to watch my pawns doing their thing...
Meanwhile I have settled for the group to be lead by one of the Colossus, with 8 destroyers in bombardment role, and the bomber fighters parked on the leading ship, while a second Colossus with interceptors following the first one, plus a destroyer on follow order to lead the Atlas so I can park it at a safe spot or in another sector even for better supply. This setup works perfectly fine.

But as soon as I assign any ship in bombardment role to a ship that is not a carrier and is not directly in combat the bomber role stops working, even the assigned destroyers will not move to formation any more. But the issue with the formation is another topic.