[MOD] Foundation of Conquest and War V. 7.2

[Crypticguy]

I've been testing multiple games with VRO + FOCW and dead air mods like ware, jobs and god. With seta on testing for like 8-10 hours in no matter what the xenon get destroyed every single time and that's with everything in FOCW for them cranked up, i even gave them spawned miner ships. It looks good in the beginning, a lot of Xenon ships and a nice back and forth between the factions and xenon but that quickly fizzles out and i don't see many xenon ships anymore. 9 hours in in this current test run and teladi and split are starting to set up their stations in Matrix sectors, terrans and antigone are pushing in to savage spur setting up theirs, frontiers edge is being taken over by argon and i assume if I let it run for longer argon will push into the south xenon sectors, they are practically dead yet again. Does FOCW not play well with things like deadair mods or are xenon just utterly broken in 6.0? Or is that not enough time and they activate later on? I had one 20 hour test run but same thing happening there.

[Scoob]

Perhaps add Faction War / Economy Enhancer to your mod list? I have that and the Xenon are a force to be reckoned with. I've used FOCW to give the regular Factions additional fleets to help resist the Xenon. Xenon were quiet for the first day or so, but now, at day two, they're pushing HARD in certain areas. Split are being invaded regularly, but I have two fronts helping them out. I've done nothing in FOCW to buff the Xenon at all, yet they're doing really well. They've resisted all invasions into their space - except the one into Tharka's Cascade XV which was by me - and mounting strong invasions elsewhere.

My taking of Tharka's Cascade XV has taken some of the pressure of ARG/ANT and ZYA. However, ARG are now mounting expeditions into ZYA space from both the South and the Easter "lost" Argon colonies. Split aren't having a good day, but holding their own. As their resourcing is ok, I allowed them an extra Carrier fleet (Raptor for them of course) which is certainly helping with their defence.

[BlackRain]

I've been testing multiple games with VRO + FOCW and dead air mods like ware, jobs and god. With seta on testing for like 8-10 hours in no matter what the xenon get destroyed every single time and that's with everything in FOCW for them cranked up, i even gave them spawned miner ships. It looks good in the beginning, a lot of Xenon ships and a nice back and forth between the factions and xenon but that quickly fizzles out and i don't see many xenon ships anymore. 9 hours in in this current test run and teladi and split are starting to set up their stations in Matrix sectors, terrans and antigone are pushing in to savage spur setting up theirs, frontiers edge is being taken over by argon and i assume if I let it run for longer argon will push into the south xenon sectors, they are practically dead yet again. Does FOCW not play well with things like deadair mods or are xenon just utterly broken in 6.0? Or is that not enough time and they activate later on? I had one 20 hour test run but same thing happening there.

It has nothing to do with FOCW, I think the issue is VRO. I was reading something about the Xenon being too weak with VRO changes in the VRO thread. So maybe there is something to explore there. I just started a new game myself and am observing the Xenon.

[Scoob]

It has nothing to do with FOCW, I think the issue is VRO. I was reading something about the Xenon being too weak with VRO changes in the VRO thread. So maybe there is something to explore there. I just started a new game myself and am observing the Xenon.

I don't think it's VRO, most of the larger Xenon ships are beasts with VRO installed. Plus they get the Missile Destroyer and some other additions too.

My current game has VRO, XR Ship Pack, Ship Variety Expansion as well as FOCW and FWEE and the Xenon are a credible threat. Their ships are tough (VRO) and they're using them in a semi-intelligent way (FWEE), combine that with the enhanced fleets FOCW allows (though they're scary enough without enhancements in my game) then you've got a potent combination.

As always, Universe Seed can make a big difference, plus I understand there were changes in v6.0 to reduce the Xenon threat a little (don't know what exactly). I assume Egosoft would only do this if the vanilla game's Xenon were considered perhaps a little too strong. Regarding seed, in my current game, many of the Factions had either Stations or Defence Platforms near the Gate / Super Highway exit bordering Xenon space. This seemed to really help slow things down. In earlier games, I've had the Xenon take out the Wharf (and other stations) in Argon prime in under a day. That really put the Argon on the back-foot.

To be clear, in my current game, I've put in a lot of effort to bolster faction economies, free key trade routes from Xenon, and personally secured various incursion areas. Without this, the Xenon would likely have done a LOT more damage by now (day 2).

[Crypticguy]

Perhaps add Faction War / Economy Enhancer to your mod list? I have that and the Xenon are a force to be reckoned with. I've used FOCW to give the regular Factions additional fleets to help resist the Xenon. Xenon were quiet for the first day or so, but now, at day two, they're pushing HARD in certain areas. Split are being invaded regularly, but I have two fronts helping them out. I've done nothing in FOCW to buff the Xenon at all, yet they're doing really well. They've resisted all invasions into their space - except the one into Tharka's Cascade XV which was by me - and mounting strong invasions elsewhere.

My taking of Tharka's Cascade XV has taken some of the pressure of ARG/ANT and ZYA. However, ARG are now mounting expeditions into ZYA space from both the South and the Easter "lost" Argon colonies. Split aren't having a good day, but holding their own. As their resourcing is ok, I allowed them an extra Carrier fleet (Raptor for them of course) which is certainly helping with their defence.

yes I also tried the faction enhancer war module and it's a big difference with it, it works well and xenon are much stronger. The big problem with it is that it's very performance heavy for my PC and with the economy modules it would be even worse

[BlackRain]

It has nothing to do with FOCW, I think the issue is VRO. I was reading something about the Xenon being too weak with VRO changes in the VRO thread. So maybe there is something to explore there. I just started a new game myself and am observing the Xenon.

I don't think it's VRO, most of the larger Xenon ships are beasts with VRO installed. Plus they get the Missile Destroyer and some other additions too.

My current game has VRO, XR Ship Pack, Ship Variety Expansion as well as FOCW and FWEE and the Xenon are a credible threat. Their ships are tough (VRO) and they're using them in a semi-intelligent way (FWEE), combine that with the enhanced fleets FOCW allows (though they're scary enough without enhancements in my game) then you've got a potent combination.

As always, Universe Seed can make a big difference, plus I understand there were changes in v6.0 to reduce the Xenon threat a little (don't know what exactly). I assume Egosoft would only do this if the vanilla game's Xenon were considered perhaps a little too strong. Regarding seed, in my current game, many of the Factions had either Stations or Defence Platforms near the Gate / Super Highway exit bordering Xenon space. This seemed to really help slow things down. In earlier games, I've had the Xenon take out the Wharf (and other stations) in Argon prime in under a day. That really put the Argon on the back-foot.

To be clear, in my current game, I've put in a lot of effort to bolster faction economies, free key trade routes from Xenon, and personally secured various incursion areas. Without this, the Xenon would likely have done a LOT more damage by now (day 2).

There have been reports of it being VRO, the difference is you are using FWEE. I do not use FWEE and am using just the regular vanilla logic so it may very well be the changes from VRO and 6.0 which are making Xenon ships weaker. I watched the Xenon closely and their ships seem to be overwhelmed by the factions. I was also using Deadair jobs, but this time I am not to see for sure. I will observe the xenon in this playthrough and see how it goes. In my last two games, it was clear that the Xenon were at a massive disadvantage

[Scoob]

There have been reports of it being VRO, the difference is you are using FWEE. I do not use FWEE and am using just the regular vanilla logic so it may very well be the changes from VRO and 6.0 which are making Xenon ships weaker. I watched the Xenon closely and their ships seem to be overwhelmed by the factions. I was also using Deadair jobs, but this time I am not to see for sure. I will observe the xenon in this playthrough and see how it goes. In my last two games, it was clear that the Xenon were at a massive disadvantage

I don't think on an individual ship level VRO makes them weaker - it's just a ship / weapon / shield rebalance. Perhaps something is off with the OOS numbers? However, Xenon ships individually are much tougher than their Faction counterparts is pretty much every way. Maybe FWEE is the key as it buffs the logic of all factions, so you don't get the one Capital ship invading a sector at a time, rather it'll be a fleet, supported by many fighters. Still, in many games played, it incredibly rare that the Xenon will lose a sector unless I'm attacking it myself. Factions actually struggle to hold their own without the extra ship quota your mod provides. I still find it interesting how people get such different experiences.

[BlackRain]

There have been reports of it being VRO, the difference is you are using FWEE. I do not use FWEE and am using just the regular vanilla logic so it may very well be the changes from VRO and 6.0 which are making Xenon ships weaker. I watched the Xenon closely and their ships seem to be overwhelmed by the factions. I was also using Deadair jobs, but this time I am not to see for sure. I will observe the xenon in this playthrough and see how it goes. In my last two games, it was clear that the Xenon were at a massive disadvantage

I don't think on an individual ship level VRO makes them weaker - it's just a ship / weapon / shield rebalance. Perhaps something is off with the OOS numbers? However, Xenon ships individually are much tougher than their Faction counterparts is pretty much every way. Maybe FWEE is the key as it buffs the logic of all factions, so you don't get the one Capital ship invading a sector at a time, rather it'll be a fleet, supported by many fighters. Still, in many games played, it incredibly rare that the Xenon will lose a sector unless I'm attacking it myself. Factions actually struggle to hold their own without the extra ship quota your mod provides. I still find it interesting how people get such different experiences.

There is not just one or two capital ships invading a sector at a time. Just like any other faction, Xenon also uses factionlogic. Therefore, they will group up large numbers of fighters and capital ships to invade other sectors as part of factionlogic. Of course, there will also be stragglers or lone wolves so to speak, but I am talking about large fights between the groups. The Xenon were getting overwhelmed, but like I said, it could also be the deadair jobs along with deadair god and deadair wares were making the factions too powerful. This is why I am doing another playthrough without deadair jobs, but keeping the other two. I will see how it goes.

[Crypticguy]

So i've been testing more and now with VRO+dead air mods+FOCW full settings AND Xenon profilation which halves xenon building cost and speed. Surely now they can't lose right?

In the beginning everything is full of xenon and it looks like they are going to take over everything. They take over getsu fune, frontier edge and swarm into the void, split sectors look like they will fall if this goes on. After a while though they slow down, ships get fewer and fewer and they are starting to get pushed back and the whole thing repeats itself again. This is around 5 hours in and i don't need to let it run further to know what's gonna happen because i've seen it many times now. Even with all of these buffs to the xenon they still lose and that shouldn't ever happen even with a bad starting seed. I think they just don't rebuild their fleets for some reason, maybe because they run out of resources which really shouldn't happen in my case or because the shipyards can't keep up. This is why i barely see any xenon ships anymore around 10-15 hours in and some of their sectors are empty. None of the normal factions seem to have this problem

https://prnt.sc/Ch8mggPf-Xc0
For example, no Xenon ships left in the north except 1 miner and none being built with the shipyard close by while the split are taking over the last sectors

Edit: nevermind they do build new ships, but can't keep up with the factions because they're running out of resources because so many ships get destroyed so quickly, i looked at the shipyards and they're all low on ore and silicon. Xenon sectors in the north always run out very quickly and and get taken over by the split

[user1679]

Just adding my observations,

I use:

FOCW, SVE (jobs disabled), XR Ship Pack (jobs disabled), VRO (jobs enabled) and the Faction / War Enhancer.

I have my Xenon settings all turned on "light" in FOCW and the "armageddon" turned off. For my other factions, I only enabled the "fighters for all factions" and then each individual faction's destroyer option. This is the same setup I was using in 5.10 because with the SVE and XR jobs enabled, Xenon were sending multiple battleships into a sector within the first hour of gameplay. The game was unplayable due to Teladi and Argon both losing their Wharfs before I even discovered the sector.

In 5.10 with the above setup, I would still see single Xenon destroyers and fleets of mining / military ships annoying ANT and ARG in Second Contact. In 6.0 I have not seen any roaming Xenon destroyers or battleships in 2 hours of gameplay. They did attempt to invade Ianamus Zura IV from Matrix #451 but only used fighters and were (ironically) destroyed by the other factions capital ships. When I popped into #451, their defense platform was being attacked by several faction's destroyers and there I saw two Xenon Branch 9 Destroyer and one Xenon "something" battleship".

[Scoob]

There is not just one or two capital ships invading a sector at a time. Just like any other faction, Xenon also uses factionlogic. Therefore, they will group up large numbers of fighters and capital ships to invade other sectors as part of factionlogic. Of course, there will also be stragglers or lone wolves so to speak, but I am talking about large fights between the groups. The Xenon were getting overwhelmed, but like I said, it could also be the deadair jobs along with deadair god and deadair wares were making the factions too powerful. This is why I am doing another playthrough without deadair jobs, but keeping the other two. I will see how it goes.

Perhaps the Deadair mods are the key here, as I don't personally use them and the Xenon remain strong.

As mentioned, I do remove the Jobs from the XR Ship Pack, as they make the Xenon go totally nuts - really, crazy game-ending nuts. I'd not noticed anything untowards with the Ship Variation Expansion Jobs, do they contributes to Xenon strength then? The Xenon in my game are strong, but the Factions held their own well during the early-game. Now I'm able to contribute militarily, I've pushed them back from one sector - and keeping them at bay with a well-placed Defence Platform & small fleet. Split are most under threat, but I'm holding the line on one front there currently, buying them time.

[BlackRain]

So i've been testing more and now with VRO+dead air mods+FOCW full settings AND Xenon profilation which halves xenon building cost and speed. Surely now they can't lose right?

In the beginning everything is full of xenon and it looks like they are going to take over everything. They take over getsu fune, frontier edge and swarm into the void, split sectors look like they will fall if this goes on. After a while though they slow down, ships get fewer and fewer and they are starting to get pushed back and the whole thing repeats itself again. This is around 5 hours in and i don't need to let it run further to know what's gonna happen because i've seen it many times now. Even with all of these buffs to the xenon they still lose and that shouldn't ever happen even with a bad starting seed. I think they just don't rebuild their fleets for some reason, maybe because they run out of resources which really shouldn't happen in my case or because the shipyards can't keep up. This is why i barely see any xenon ships anymore around 10-15 hours in and some of their sectors are empty. None of the normal factions seem to have this problem

https://prnt.sc/Ch8mggPf-Xc0
For example, no Xenon ships left in the north except 1 miner and none being built with the shipyard close by while the split are taking over the last sectors

Edit: nevermind they do build new ships, but can't keep up with the factions because they're running out of resources because so many ships get destroyed so quickly, i looked at the shipyards and they're all low on ore and silicon. Xenon sectors in the north always run out very quickly and and get taken over by the split

Which deadair mods are you using? I am playing now and am observing how the Xenon do so I am curious what commonalities we have.

[wildfoodiemiku]

I have a game run with these related mod

Sira ported: DA job 6.0/ ware 6.0/ DA gate trimmed( only resource buff for xeno sector ) / dead air dynamic war ( turned off at begining only for checking faction military/economy statistics)
+
FOCW (enable xenon activateXenonApocalypse )
+
VRO

with cheat menu adding resource to xeno shipyard and scan xeno shipyard to see what they are doing, after xenon have some big lost they are constantly building ships in shipyard, though:
1. Usually shipyard is busy building ships that seems not from FOCW job ( I think FOCW job gives ship a special name like *supervisor* ), probably 1 in 10 ship will have FOCW names
2. Xenon still falling behind everywhere
3. additionally every game my HOP is lossing to ANT + PAR in early game

I think (3) might from DA jobs giving each faction too many and unbalanced number of starting ship ( ANT 14 XL, HOP only 12 XL PAR 16 XL, around 100L to each faction. HOP usually start inviding ANT + PAR at the same time, some times even TEL. then lost all their fleet before larger enemy + defense station and get invaded from 3 direction. ), also VRO set shipyard storage to be full at begining, so each faction can maintain a large fleet size even longer, which is not good for xenon because:
from (1)+(2) I think Xenon is capped by its shipyard throuput, say ANT sending 3~5 fleet each has 3~5 destroyer to invide Xenon sectore, but a K/ I is still building in shipyard for another 15 minutes, even they are built they are out numbered, FOCW reqeusted some jobs but seldom have some chance to be built.

so it could be under these mod combination, Xenon stupidly sending their weak starting fleet to other factions, get huge loss and never have ability to recover quickly enough.

[BlackRain]

I have a game run with these related mod

Sira ported: DA job 6.0/ ware 6.0/ DA gate trimmed( only resource buff for xeno sector ) / dead air dynamic war ( turned off at begining only for checking faction military/economy statistics)
+
FOCW (enable xenon activateXenonApocalypse )
+
VRO

with cheat menu adding resource to xeno shipyard and scan xeno shipyard to see what they are doing, after xenon have some big lost they are constantly building ships in shipyard, though:
1. Usually shipyard is busy building ships that seems not from FOCW job ( I think FOCW job gives ship a special name like *supervisor* ), probably 1 in 10 ship will have FOCW names
2. Xenon still falling behind everywhere
3. additionally every game my HOP is lossing to ANT + PAR in early game

I think (3) might from DA jobs giving each faction too many and unbalanced number of starting ship ( ANT 14 XL, HOP only 12 XL PAR 16 XL, around 100L to each faction. HOP usually start inviding ANT + PAR at the same time, some times even TEL. then lost all their fleet before larger enemy + defense station and get invaded from 3 direction. ), also VRO set shipyard storage to be full at begining, so each faction can maintain a large fleet size even longer, which is not good for xenon because:
from (1)+(2) I think Xenon is capped by its shipyard throuput, say ANT sending 3~5 fleet each has 3~5 destroyer to invide Xenon sectore, but a K/ I is still building in shipyard for another 15 minutes, even they are built they are out numbered, FOCW reqeusted some jobs but seldom have some chance to be built.

so it could be under these mod combination, Xenon stupidly sending their weak starting fleet to other factions, get huge loss and never have ability to recover quickly enough.

Yeah, I turned off Deadair jobs for this new playthrough because I noticed that Deadair jobs gave the factions fleets that were much more effective, also, there are many expeditionary fleets. Expeditionary fleets will go seek out enemy sectors to attack even far away so many are going to attack the Xenon which weakens them. So far, the Xenon are okay in this playthrough and I will continue to monitor the situation. I also configured FOCW to have a lot of Xenon ships/fleets but I did not turn on any of the extra faction capital fleets, only fighter squadrons for now. I will increase faction ships eventually though.

[Crypticguy]

So i've been testing more and now with VRO+dead air mods+FOCW full settings AND Xenon profilation which halves xenon building cost and speed. Surely now they can't lose right?

In the beginning everything is full of xenon and it looks like they are going to take over everything. They take over getsu fune, frontier edge and swarm into the void, split sectors look like they will fall if this goes on. After a while though they slow down, ships get fewer and fewer and they are starting to get pushed back and the whole thing repeats itself again. This is around 5 hours in and i don't need to let it run further to know what's gonna happen because i've seen it many times now. Even with all of these buffs to the xenon they still lose and that shouldn't ever happen even with a bad starting seed. I think they just don't rebuild their fleets for some reason, maybe because they run out of resources which really shouldn't happen in my case or because the shipyards can't keep up. This is why i barely see any xenon ships anymore around 10-15 hours in and some of their sectors are empty. None of the normal factions seem to have this problem

https://prnt.sc/Ch8mggPf-Xc0
For example, no Xenon ships left in the north except 1 miner and none being built with the shipyard close by while the split are taking over the last sectors

Edit: nevermind they do build new ships, but can't keep up with the factions because they're running out of resources because so many ships get destroyed so quickly, i looked at the shipyards and they're all low on ore and silicon. Xenon sectors in the north always run out very quickly and and get taken over by the split

Which deadair mods are you using? I am playing now and am observing how the Xenon do so I am curious what commonalities we have.

I was using deadair jobs, ware and god

[BlackRain]

So i've been testing more and now with VRO+dead air mods+FOCW full settings AND Xenon profilation which halves xenon building cost and speed. Surely now they can't lose right?

In the beginning everything is full of xenon and it looks like they are going to take over everything. They take over getsu fune, frontier edge and swarm into the void, split sectors look like they will fall if this goes on. After a while though they slow down, ships get fewer and fewer and they are starting to get pushed back and the whole thing repeats itself again. This is around 5 hours in and i don't need to let it run further to know what's gonna happen because i've seen it many times now. Even with all of these buffs to the xenon they still lose and that shouldn't ever happen even with a bad starting seed. I think they just don't rebuild their fleets for some reason, maybe because they run out of resources which really shouldn't happen in my case or because the shipyards can't keep up. This is why i barely see any xenon ships anymore around 10-15 hours in and some of their sectors are empty. None of the normal factions seem to have this problem

https://prnt.sc/Ch8mggPf-Xc0
For example, no Xenon ships left in the north except 1 miner and none being built with the shipyard close by while the split are taking over the last sectors

Edit: nevermind they do build new ships, but can't keep up with the factions because they're running out of resources because so many ships get destroyed so quickly, i looked at the shipyards and they're all low on ore and silicon. Xenon sectors in the north always run out very quickly and and get taken over by the split

Which deadair mods are you using? I am playing now and am observing how the Xenon do so I am curious what commonalities we have.

I was using deadair jobs, ware and god

Okay, me too. I think deadair jobs might be what makes the factions too strong against Xenon but I am still observing.

[Crypticguy]

I've done another test run this time without deadair jobs too and it seems to help the xenon, i don't see them collapsing completely, although im starting to see their stations getting attacked by split in the north xenon sectors, those seem to be the most vulnerable and can lead to a chain reaction once those sectors are dead. I think they can't make use of all the things that FOCW adds because they don't have the resources for it.

https://prnt.sc/Wygy9JMP3GfZ

This is how the Xenon wharfs and shipyards look most of the time

[BlackRain]

I've done another test run this time without deadair jobs too and it seems to help the xenon, i don't see them collapsing completely, although im starting to see their stations getting attacked by split in the north xenon sectors, those seem to be the most vulnerable and can lead to a chain reaction once those sectors are dead. I think they can't make use of all the things that FOCW adds because they don't have the resources for it.

https://prnt.sc/Wygy9JMP3GfZ

This is how the Xenon wharfs and shipyards look most of the time

That shouldn't be a big deal. FOCW doesn't order ships rapidly so that shouldn't really be a big indicator. That may depend on how much time has passed and also could vary from game to game. In the game I am currently playing, the Xenon are doing fine so far in most places and are invading quite a bit. You could try turning off the faction ships until the xenon build up a bit and then turn them back on little by little or something.

[Crypticguy]

I've done another test run this time without deadair jobs too and it seems to help the xenon, i don't see them collapsing completely, although im starting to see their stations getting attacked by split in the north xenon sectors, those seem to be the most vulnerable and can lead to a chain reaction once those sectors are dead. I think they can't make use of all the things that FOCW adds because they don't have the resources for it.

https://prnt.sc/Wygy9JMP3GfZ

This is how the Xenon wharfs and shipyards look most of the time

That shouldn't be a big deal. FOCW doesn't order ships rapidly so that shouldn't really be a big indicator. That may depend on how much time has passed and also could vary from game to game. In the game I am currently playing, the Xenon are doing fine so far in most places and are invading quite a bit. You could try turning off the faction ships until the xenon build up a bit and then turn them back on little by little or something.

Yeah the game needs a bit of time to stabilize, without deadair jobs it doesn't buff the factions to a crazy amount compared to the xenon and they don't wipe them out early. And with the FOCW spawned miner option enbaled it offsets the constant miner suicide runs into enemy sectors a bit, it seems fine now

[BlackRain]

I've done another test run this time without deadair jobs too and it seems to help the xenon, i don't see them collapsing completely, although im starting to see their stations getting attacked by split in the north xenon sectors, those seem to be the most vulnerable and can lead to a chain reaction once those sectors are dead. I think they can't make use of all the things that FOCW adds because they don't have the resources for it.

https://prnt.sc/Wygy9JMP3GfZ

This is how the Xenon wharfs and shipyards look most of the time

That shouldn't be a big deal. FOCW doesn't order ships rapidly so that shouldn't really be a big indicator. That may depend on how much time has passed and also could vary from game to game. In the game I am currently playing, the Xenon are doing fine so far in most places and are invading quite a bit. You could try turning off the faction ships until the xenon build up a bit and then turn them back on little by little or something.

Yeah the game needs a bit of time to stabilize, without deadair jobs it doesn't buff the factions to a crazy amount compared to the xenon and they don't wipe them out early. And with the FOCW spawned miner option enbaled it offsets the constant miner suicide runs into enemy sectors a bit, it seems fine now

If you started a new game with the extra faction ships/fleets active, they would have had more ships at the beginning of the game which could also be an influence here. If you turn them off when starting a new game, they won't have the extra ships, you can then activate whatever and they will have to build over time. You can activate xenon ships at game start though and they will have the extra ships already.