[MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 2.x

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Aranov
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Re: [MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 2.x

Post by Aranov » Mon, 15. Feb 21, 00:51

jah wrote:
Sun, 14. Feb 21, 22:24
Does anyone such as me have problems with panthers fighting oos? They jumping around the enemies like crazy - as if they never turn their travel drives off. Furthermore, they don't seem to use their turrets at all
Are you using Beta 7? I've had similar problems with my patrol ships in my save. I've thought of reporting it here earlier, but then just brushed it off after I made some personal tweaks.

Beta 7 added new parameters, and changed some others, in low attention combat, that naturally are missing from VRO's version of parameters.xml

As such, OOS combat is basically non-functional with VRO and Beta 7 in my experience.

jah
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Re: [MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 2.x

Post by jah » Mon, 15. Feb 21, 15:13

Yes I am using the beta patch. Seems to be the reason for this

Scoob
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Re: [MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 2.x

Post by Scoob » Mon, 15. Feb 21, 17:31

I wouldn't say OOS combat was non-functional with VRO in Beta 7. Some OOS fights drag on a little longer than IS ones sure, but not terribly so. For example, my Fleet of two Phoenix Destroyers make fairly short work of the regular Kha'ak spawns IS, but take a little longer OOS. They still win, but the fight last longer. Under the old OOS combat, they'd win OOS in seconds - which is less representative of the IS fight.

Larger groups of Kha'ak - sometimes I see large amounts of the Corvette Class Kha'ak appear, no smaller ships - can give a single Destroyer a hard time as they're pretty good at killing Turrets. IS the same group is less of a danger to the Destroyer, however, overall, the balance seems closer IS vs. OOS than before. Though with a slight bias against the Destroyer.

This balance - which is Looooong overdue of course - is most welcome but still a WIP so will no doubt evolve further. Also, VRO will of course be updated for 4.0 Release to take into account the OOS combat changes I've no doubt. I don't know whether Shuulo will do an update just for 4.0, or whether he'll do a combined 4.0 and Cradle of Humanity update. I assume the former, but I don't know of course.

Personally I expect that modder are really happy at the potential to gain additional control over OOS weapon balance. It's been nigh on impossible to balance weapons well for OOS up until this point as far as I'm aware.

Scoob.

jah
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Re: [MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 2.x

Post by jah » Mon, 15. Feb 21, 20:29

Scoob wrote:
Mon, 15. Feb 21, 17:31
I wouldn't say OOS combat was non-functional with VRO in Beta 7. Some OOS fights drag on a little longer than IS ones sure, but not terribly so. For example, my Fleet of two Phoenix Destroyers make fairly short work of the regular Kha'ak spawns IS, but take a little longer OOS. They still win, but the fight last longer. Under the old OOS combat, they'd win OOS in seconds - which is less representative of the IS fight.

Larger groups of Kha'ak - sometimes I see large amounts of the Corvette Class Kha'ak appear, no smaller ships - can give a single Destroyer a hard time as they're pretty good at killing Turrets. IS the same group is less of a danger to the Destroyer, however, overall, the balance seems closer IS vs. OOS than before. Though with a slight bias against the Destroyer.

This balance - which is Looooong overdue of course - is most welcome but still a WIP so will no doubt evolve further. Also, VRO will of course be updated for 4.0 Release to take into account the OOS combat changes I've no doubt. I don't know whether Shuulo will do an update just for 4.0, or whether he'll do a combined 4.0 and Cradle of Humanity update. I assume the former, but I don't know of course.

Personally I expect that modder are really happy at the potential to gain additional control over OOS weapon balance. It's been nigh on impossible to balance weapons well for OOS up until this point as far as I'm aware.

Scoob.
Just to clarify: I like the new oos combat mechanics but some ships don't behave like they should (i.e. jumping around the enemy in wide circles at speeds faster than any ship at regular speeds)

schmollo
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Re: [MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 2.x

Post by schmollo » Mon, 15. Feb 21, 23:30

Hi,

first of all, thank you very much for your mod! It's the only way I play the game, and it may be the same for others, so not only I but also Egosoft should thank you! The main point is that big ships feel like big ships again, so you can develop and (eventually) feel pretty secure in your boss chair :-)

Now my question: Is it possible that when changing missiles they are announced by "Betty"? The audio files are there for sure (or I'll extract them for you from the old X3 files)! That's why it belongs to VRO, because with the new names I don't even know if they are available as audio. And these characters are so cryptic, I never know which rocket is currently inserted :-(

So, how does it look? Is there a chance? I'm not a good programmer (some Basic and Assambler 30 years ago at 8Bit 8) ), but if I can do something, let me know!

Greetings Schmollo

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Shuulo
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Re: [MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 2.x

Post by Shuulo » Tue, 16. Feb 21, 04:07

Aranov wrote:
Mon, 15. Feb 21, 00:51

As such, OOS combat is basically non-functional with VRO and Beta 7 in my experience.
It is a confirmed bug in beta, nothing to do with mod. Still, VRO will be updated to 4.0 after its full release, current version is still playable though with some minor non-breaking issues.

I would recommend to wait for update for COH before loading your savegame with VRO when COH will be released.

Halpog
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Re: [MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 2.x

Post by Halpog » Sun, 21. Feb 21, 16:02

Shuulo wrote:
Tue, 16. Feb 21, 04:07
Aranov wrote:
Mon, 15. Feb 21, 00:51

As such, OOS combat is basically non-functional with VRO and Beta 7 in my experience.
It is a confirmed bug in beta, nothing to do with mod. Still, VRO will be updated to 4.0 after its full release, current version is still playable though with some minor non-breaking issues.

I would recommend to wait for update for COH before loading your savegame with VRO when COH will be released.
if thios mod gets updated , hell yeah ill give x4 another shot, but this mods desperatly needs a check up for the xenon shit ....
i startet a game .... DID NOTHING , i only used seta for 10 hours real time.. and guess what ? all factions are gone and xenon was ruling the universe
in every xenon sector there was 3 or 4 headquarters ...
sectors from other factions where basicaly empty... only 1 or 2 stations left.. no fleet nothing
when i turn off this mod. and do the same... xenone are not so powerfull.. they are agressive yes, but not like that

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Shuulo
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Re: [MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 2.x

Post by Shuulo » Mon, 22. Feb 21, 13:19

Halpog wrote:
Sun, 21. Feb 21, 16:02
Shuulo wrote:
Tue, 16. Feb 21, 04:07
Aranov wrote:
Mon, 15. Feb 21, 00:51

As such, OOS combat is basically non-functional with VRO and Beta 7 in my experience.
It is a confirmed bug in beta, nothing to do with mod. Still, VRO will be updated to 4.0 after its full release, current version is still playable though with some minor non-breaking issues.

I would recommend to wait for update for COH before loading your savegame with VRO when COH will be released.
if thios mod gets updated , hell yeah ill give x4 another shot, but this mods desperatly needs a check up for the xenon shit ....
i startet a game .... DID NOTHING , i only used seta for 10 hours real time.. and guess what ? all factions are gone and xenon was ruling the universe
in every xenon sector there was 3 or 4 headquarters ...
sectors from other factions where basicaly empty... only 1 or 2 stations left.. no fleet nothing
when i turn off this mod. and do the same... xenone are not so powerfull.. they are agressive yes, but not like that
What you mean headquarters? Vro does nothing to xenon ai or their aggressiveness, look for a conflict in other mod.

Scoob
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Re: [MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 2.x

Post by Scoob » Mon, 22. Feb 21, 18:29

In my experience the Xenon have sometimes steamrollered the Universe in a totally vanilla game. Other times they have not. I've seen Xenon taking over certain Teladi sectors, yet in another game the Teladi will wipe out the Xenon sectors entirely. There's so much RNG in a game start that things can play out very differently even in vanilla.

I find generally that it's the ARG Core sectors that can easily get into trouble, being squeezed by both Xenon and HOP. HOP invariably - modified or not - steamrroll their adjacent Xenon sectors, and ARG sectors and ANT sectors and regularly take a chunk out of PAR too. HOP are always OP and aggressive in every game I've played.

I think it's the Faction War / Economy Enhance mod that most impacts the general attack / defence behaviour, though the overall strengths of the factions are still influenced by that start of game RNG.

Scoob.

Halpog
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Re: [MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 2.x

Post by Halpog » Mon, 22. Feb 21, 19:37

Shuulo wrote:
Mon, 22. Feb 21, 13:19
Halpog wrote:
Sun, 21. Feb 21, 16:02
Shuulo wrote:
Tue, 16. Feb 21, 04:07


It is a confirmed bug in beta, nothing to do with mod. Still, VRO will be updated to 4.0 after its full release, current version is still playable though with some minor non-breaking issues.

I would recommend to wait for update for COH before loading your savegame with VRO when COH will be released.
if thios mod gets updated , hell yeah ill give x4 another shot, but this mods desperatly needs a check up for the xenon shit ....
i startet a game .... DID NOTHING , i only used seta for 10 hours real time.. and guess what ? all factions are gone and xenon was ruling the universe
in every xenon sector there was 3 or 4 headquarters ...
sectors from other factions where basicaly empty... only 1 or 2 stations left.. no fleet nothing
when i turn off this mod. and do the same... xenone are not so powerfull.. they are agressive yes, but not like that
What you mean headquarters? Vro does nothing to xenon ai or their aggressiveness, look for a conflict in other mod.
when i start the game with VRO , i get a message in the first 10 seconds of a game saying : the xenone have recived a gift of there homeworlds , due to a failure in the past ....and this is from VRO

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Shuulo
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Re: [MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 2.x

Post by Shuulo » Tue, 23. Feb 21, 16:20

Halpog wrote:
Mon, 22. Feb 21, 19:37
Shuulo wrote:
Mon, 22. Feb 21, 13:19
Halpog wrote:
Sun, 21. Feb 21, 16:02


if thios mod gets updated , hell yeah ill give x4 another shot, but this mods desperatly needs a check up for the xenon shit ....
i startet a game .... DID NOTHING , i only used seta for 10 hours real time.. and guess what ? all factions are gone and xenon was ruling the universe
in every xenon sector there was 3 or 4 headquarters ...
sectors from other factions where basicaly empty... only 1 or 2 stations left.. no fleet nothing
when i turn off this mod. and do the same... xenone are not so powerfull.. they are agressive yes, but not like that
What you mean headquarters? Vro does nothing to xenon ai or their aggressiveness, look for a conflict in other mod.
when i start the game with VRO , i get a message in the first 10 seconds of a game saying : the xenone have recived a gift of there homeworlds , due to a failure in the past ....and this is from VRO
Its a one time thing to fix old bug, its not needed anymore and will be removed in new version.
All it does is provide some resources to xenons, they use it up quite fast so impact on their aggressiveness is mostly not noticeable.
And what is about 3-4 headquarters xenons have in sector, what you mean by this? VRO doesnt add them or something.

Scoob
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Re: [MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 2.x

Post by Scoob » Wed, 24. Feb 21, 01:51

One of the things I will say about the VRO changes and the Xenon is how a Xenon Power Plant is FAR tougher than your average Xenon Defence Platform. In my game, Solar Power Plants always seem to be outfitted with long-range high-damage weapons. Where my Taranis heavy Destroyers can usually position themselves a good 12+ km away from a Defence Platform and slowly chip away at it with their PPC Turrets, thing don't go as well vs. an SPP. Firstly, the SPP seems to have longer range, more weapons and, oddly, far better firing arc up and down, if they concentrate on one ship, that ships is dead in minutes. Also, Xenon modules are just so darn tough. Once the Xenon have established a Station - which, during building, often seems to be largely ignored by the sector owners Faction - it's near impossible for said Faction to take it down...assuming they even send ships to do so.

Xenon being able to build without using a CV is also a huge advantage to them, they've got no vulnerable asset that, when taken out, stops the build. Xenon build really fast and simply don't need the variety of resources a Faction station does. This seems to give them quite the edge.

I usually make a point of defending Hatikvah's Choice I from Xenon incursions once I'm in a position to do so. This will usually keep these sectors safe. However, this game I chose not to but just watched how things played out. Two and a half days in, this sector has three Xenon stations fully built. One Defence Platform and two Solar Power Plants. Even with my forces of four Taranis, four Behemoths and other ships, just one SPP can wipe my forces before even one module is down. Sure, often my ships don't make smart positioning choices vs. SPP, but they're fine vs. Defence Platforms for the most part.

If the Faction AI responded appropriately to a Xenon incursion rather than just sending individual ships periodically, it'd be better. Faction War / Economy Enhancer can help, but generally the response it dead poor. I know this isn't VRO's place to fix, it's a ship / weapon / shield rebalance, but I do wonder if any changes to Xenon Stations might help? Should they be allowed the large amount of Large Turrets they can mount, considering how super tough their station module Hulls are?

I recall how effective LV's Race Response Fleets were back in the day. Of course they had the ability to jump to position in a sector, but it was cool. Any response in X4 would take longer, but the fact that, much of the time, there is no response is odd. ARG are in a bad position really, with HOP to their South and Xenon to their North, they simply cannot build fast enough without extensive player help. Indeed I roll-played one game where I JUST supplied ARG stations with resource, and ARG forces became quite effective.

I think my main problem here is the Beta's impact on the economy. Food and Meds production is non-existent and there are other shortages such as Hull Parts as usual, even my large station cannot keep up with demand.

Scoob.

Halpog
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Re: [MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 2.x

Post by Halpog » Wed, 24. Feb 21, 16:22

Shuulo wrote:
Tue, 23. Feb 21, 16:20
Halpog wrote:
Mon, 22. Feb 21, 19:37
Shuulo wrote:
Mon, 22. Feb 21, 13:19


What you mean headquarters? Vro does nothing to xenon ai or their aggressiveness, look for a conflict in other mod.
when i start the game with VRO , i get a message in the first 10 seconds of a game saying : the xenone have recived a gift of there homeworlds , due to a failure in the past ....and this is from VRO
Its a one time thing to fix old bug, its not needed anymore and will be removed in new version.
All it does is provide some resources to xenons, they use it up quite fast so impact on their aggressiveness is mostly not noticeable.
And what is about 3-4 headquarters xenons have in sector, what you mean by this? VRO doesnt add them or something.
when xenon gets nuts, and start there ruling spree .. i can find in every sector 3 or more defense stations, across 3 to 4 energy produktion fabrics...and in every 3rd sector they cross, they create shuip warfs ...
it took them nearly 8 hours of sinza. to go from antigone memorial through argon prime and patryarch zyat sectors to the far right corner and whipe out completly teladi,argon,antigone,and every fabrik,ship they owen ...
fleets of xenone are 4times bigger than any other fleet of other factions.

yesterday i did the same again. just startet the game and let it run via sinza for 8 hours ...
this time they got in almost EVERY sector : 5x I 8x Q and 15x p/k ships as invasion fleet ...the other factions and there fleets are totaly whiped out ....
so i removed the VRO mod, and did the same again over night ( last night ) and today morning the xenon wasent ruling all the universe with so much sectors and the invasion fleets where much much smaller.

iam using only VRO mod , nothing else...
so i can definatly say, that the VRO mod gives the xenone a massive push in case about there strengh, agressivness, and how fast and how much they build...

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Shuulo
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Re: [MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 2.x

Post by Shuulo » Wed, 24. Feb 21, 18:06

Halpog wrote:
Wed, 24. Feb 21, 16:22
this time they got in almost EVERY sector : 5x I 8x Q and 15x p/k ships as invasion fleet ...the other factions and there fleets are totaly whiped out ....
Sorry, but Q is not vanilla OR VRO ship.
VRO or Vanilla simply do not have 8 I-class ships in their files (their amount is limited to 4 FOR THE WHOLE GALAXY)

Whatever you are using, its not just VRO

Newinger
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Re: [MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 2.x

Post by Newinger » Wed, 24. Feb 21, 20:34

IIRC, Q is from the X-Rebirth ship mod.

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