Are Argon are a traitor to humankind?

[THE_TrashMan]

Here's the thing. Hitler saved a jew and actually tried to cancel the gas chambers. Because of a war though he wasn't exactly in a position to go "Let's make that a first priority". It was actually Himmler that did it, not Hitler.

Yeah, no. Not discussing the Holocauster. Especially not on a german company forum.

My point is things aren't as they appear to be. Russia executes civies, sure, but those prisoners being drafted aren't given much of a choice.

Considering the death toll every time the USA "liberated" another country and the lies to justifiy that liberation, Russia might as well be angels in comparison.

The Terrains also have the nerve to try and turn the ant and argons on each other. What did the ant do? It's a COWARDLY tactic.

And sabotage and sending Xenon attack isn't?

So yea, of course the Argons, seeing the same mistakes with their own people most likely (Xenon aside), will be aware ANY race can make these mistakes. So why then would they trust the Terrains not too? They MADE the xenon. CREATED them. Look at it from that viewpoint. Even worse then nukes. A GALACTRIC threat. Regardless of wherever it was by intent or not, if you're stupid enough to make them in the first place then you're a threat. Either show you learn from mistakes or you're too stupid to not repeat the past mistakes. Did the terrains learn? They'd like to think so. But did they really?

And that is why they experimented with AGI when the terrans banned it utterly?
At least the terran show they learn from their mistakes, the Argon erased parts of their own history and lied to their populace. And then proceeded to unleash the very same galactic threat.

The Terrains see the xenon as a threat that has to be destoyed at all costs. The Yaki however prove that this doesn't have to be the case. The xenon are programed to see organics as a threat. Somehow the Yaki get seen as "ally" to the Xenon. Or at least "Not a threat". Their cybernetic implants maybe? Not all humans are going to want to live as cyborgs though. At the very least their ships fool the xenon.

That only works some of the time and it eventually drives you insane. Not a solution.
Destroy all xenon.
Piledrive AGI cores into the ground.

I won't deepdive into the rest. Argon has no moral high ground. None. Nada. Zilch.

[Surimi]

That only works some of the time and it eventually drives you insane. Not a solution.

Everyone could just wait for another AGI core to become self-aware and this time maybe don't try to murder it when it offers peace.

Because the encyclopedia is pretty blunt about the fact that the xenon will win. Even with the ancients actively trying to contain them using the jumpgate network, they can just cross interstellar space the slow way if they have to. It might take them a really long time to take over the galaxy, but they have the time, and since the xenon themselves aren't self-aware if they win that's potentially the end for all intelligent life.

The Terran approach is just a slow death.

[THE_TrashMan]

There can be no peace with abominable intelligence.

I find stories/writers that go the "they were just misunderstood/we can have peace" route terrible. I find AI in general terrible and badly written.

[Taramafor]

They endangered all life forms of the know universe; don't diminish their work please. But i still don't see them as traitors, just their leadership and those that follow them blindly are.

That goes without saying. When someone says Americans/Russians/Aagon/Whatever in a geopolitical sense, they usually mean the governemnt, not the people.

The action of Terrans could be considered a danger to the Argon Government.
The action of the Argon were a danger to the known universe.

Except the terrains, again, CREATED the xenon. That's even more of a threat then the xenon themselves. How can they be trusted not to do it again? And with how paranoid they are and how easily they are to resort to lashing out from fear and anger, well, would you trust that?

All the argons really did is send back their own toys. Right back at "god". Maybe if the terrains weren't trying to turn the argons and ant against each other they might be thinking of ways to coexist. Instead they seem determined to make enemies. That's not the argons fault. That's the terrains. Two wrongs don't make a right here.

Sure, the terrains might be a bit salty after having their own toys sent back at them. But that's the thing. THEY made them. A galactric threat that is a threat to all life. Look at it this way. What else might they make next? And you're surprised there was retaliation?

I'm looking at it as how others might see it. Personally I know there's better ways to handle the situation. But that's "me" and "you". How are others viewing this? Look at it from the perception of an argon that lost everything to xenon and looks at terrains, who created the xenon. What's going through their mind?

[mr.WHO]

Lore wise, Xenon aren't even intelligent, they are rogue/beserker drones that operate on corrupted terraforming directive.

X-universe story wise, there were two Xenon CPU ships that gained sentience, become peaceful, contacted with Boron and Ancients and they peacefully left to join Ancients hivemind.

[Taramafor]

At least the terran show they learn from their mistakes, the Argon erased parts of their own history and lied to their populace. And then proceeded to unleash the very same galactic threat.

What I see is a bunch of cowards making threats at the first opportunity. The problem is they're SO focused on the xenon that they seem to be turning a blind eye to everything else. They see everything else as "a threat". Where's the accountability? At what point have they ever admitted to anything other then the xenon? "I made the xenon" only goes so far. It isn't a free pass to get away with everything else. The argons aren't just going to stand for being pushed around. Or the other races for that matter.

I won't deepdive into the rest. Argon has no moral high ground. None. Nada. Zilch.

Do you think morals wil save you? "Might makes right". That's how it goes. But only if you're not blind. The terrains think they're the ones with the big guns. In reality their pride blinds them. Their pride, more then anything, is what makes them dangerious. The worst part is they won't even see it. Not until it's too late. The argon sending the xenon back is proof of this. The war with the argon if the player is honest about what happens is proof of this. That's what happens when you keep making targets and keep seeing "a threat" around every corner. If the terrains eased up a bit maybe the argons wouldn't be doing what they did in the first place. If the terrains were more diplomatic and stepped out of their sheltered bubble more then they might learn more.

It's a lot like how people can make the mistake of isolating themselves. A mistake I made once even. What happens is that you stick with yourself. You believe the lies you tell yourself. That's basically what happened with the terrains. So they're very paranoid and insecure. Because they been that sheltered. They're taking everything as a "personal attack". The terrains are doing it over and over and over. And you say they learned? If this is "learning" then we're really in the frying pan if they make the bigger mistakes.

[Mightysword]

At what point have they ever admitted to anything other then the xenon? "I made the xenon" only goes so far. It isn't a free pass to get away with everything else. The argons aren't just going to stand for being pushed around. Or the other races for that matter.

It's a lot like how people can make the mistake of isolating themselves. A mistake I made once even. What happens is that you stick with yourself. You believe the lies you tell yourself. That's basically what happened with the terrains. So they're very paranoid and insecure.

I know you're trying to draw comparison, but sometime there is something that just can't be compared. My dad got sent to concentration camp in his late 20, spent 7 years in it before getting out. And despite a lot of healing and nurturing afterward (he's in the 70 now), according to everyone who knew him (including my mom who married him for 40 years) say he has never become the same man. I got into a car accident a few years back, broke some bone, and the way it went, I was maybe half a second away for the hit to become T-bone collision, which probably would have killed or disabled me for life. Since then, I have -not extreme- but mild anxiety whenever I cross an intersection with no signal, and I don' think this anxiety will ever go a way. I don't know if it's PTSD.


The point is, there are thing people can resolve and move on, there are things that they don't. Accidentally hurting someone and accidentally killing someone is not the samething. The trauma of almost getting killed but escape unharmed (like miss getting hit by a train by a hair breath) and the trauma of suffer gravious injury and survive is not the samething. The kind of "thing" the Terran had faced ... I don't think it's comparable to even the worst mistake you had made in your life.


The first Xenon war was as close to an existence threat as it could be for the Terran. 800 years maybe a long time, but I doubt all that time were simply spent healing. The level of devastation mean Earth probably spent at least a couple hundred years facing hardship and rebuild the ruin of their civilization, a period that no doubt left a very heavy imprint on their civilization. Now of course, in an ideal world we would hope everyone are strong enough to shrug off the past and find the strength to move on, but can we fault them for not being able to? This is like telling a combat vet who suffers PTSD "your war was over decade ago, stop being so paranoid and move on". In the case of the Terran, they're also like a PTSD victim who was isolated and had no support, dealing with nothing but the echo of their own fear, is it really their fault they turned out that way?

[mr.WHO]

In the case of the Terran, they're also like a PTSD victim who was isolated and had no support, dealing with nothing but the echo of their own fear, is it really their fault they turned out that way?

Not to mention, before gate reopened in X3 Reunion, Terran could think that everything outside Sol is basically infested entirely by Xenons.


Rember:
X-BTF started by Terrans making a Jump Drive shuttle from strayed Xenon ship that jumped to Sol - that must freaked them out seriously.
Then the X-Shuttle jumped away and never returned.

Then in X-Tension, they sent another X-Shuttle that also got lost - now Terran would be seriously paranoid...
...now you see when at the end of X3 Reunion gate to Sol reopened, Terrans pushed entire ATF battlegroup guns blazing and first thing they found was Argons fighting another major threat of Khaak.



Can't blame Terrans for reacting to Argons toying with AGI/Xenons.

[Taramafor]

At what point have they ever admitted to anything other then the xenon? "I made the xenon" only goes so far. It isn't a free pass to get away with everything else. The argons aren't just going to stand for being pushed around. Or the other races for that matter.

It's a lot like how people can make the mistake of isolating themselves. A mistake I made once even. What happens is that you stick with yourself. You believe the lies you tell yourself. That's basically what happened with the terrains. So they're very paranoid and insecure.

I know you're trying to draw comparison, but sometime there is something that just can't be compared. My dad got sent to concentration camp in his late 20, spent 7 years in it before getting out. And despite a lot of healing and nurturing afterward (he's in the 70 now), according to everyone who knew him (including my mom who married him for 40 years) say he has never become the same man. I got into a car accident a few years back, broke some bone, and the way it went, I was maybe half a second away for the hit to become T-bone collision, which probably would have killed or disabled me for life. Since then, I have -not extreme- but mild anxiety whenever I cross an intersection with no signal, and I don' think this anxiety will ever go a way. I don't know if it's PTSD.


The point is, there are thing people can resolve and move on, there are things that they don't. Accidentally hurting someone and accidentally killing someone is not the samething. The trauma of almost getting killed but escape unharmed (like miss getting hit by a train by a hair breath) and the trauma of suffer gravious injury and survive is not the samething. The kind of "thing" the Terran had faced ... I don't think it's comparable to even the worst mistake you had made in your life.


The first Xenon war was as close to an existence threat as it could be for the Terran. 800 years maybe a long time, but I doubt all that time were simply spent healing. The level of devastation mean Earth probably spent at least a couple hundred years facing hardship and rebuild the ruin of their civilization, a period that no doubt left a very heavy imprint on their civilization. Now of course, in an ideal world we would hope everyone are strong enough to shrug off the past and find the strength to move on, but can we fault them for not being able to? This is like telling a combat vet who suffers PTSD "your war was over decade ago, stop being so paranoid and move on". In the case of the Terran, they're also like a PTSD victim who was isolated and had no support, dealing with nothing but the echo of their own fear, is it really their fault they turned out that way?

"Move on"? You brought this up. That's NOT moving on. if you bring this up and say "move on" then that's a contradiction. Look at the bigger picture here.

Of course your dad isn't the same. That's my point here. I'm not the same person I was either. The terrains have yet to adapt. The paranid had to adapt more. They were forced too. They had more time around the argon. They had to learn to find a way to coexist. The holy order is still struggling there of course.

If you kill someone by accident then you're an IDIOT. If you kill someone with intent then at least you intended to do it and know what you're dong. If you're going to do something like create the xenon then don't be an idiot about it. My point is the terrains are idiots. Blinded by their pride and hubris. They were before and they STILL are. Maybe not as bad as before, but they're hardly in a stiuation where they're actually diplomatic. Don't make excuses to defend them and change the topic. Is this the situation or not? Start with that.

Isolation causes bad diplomacy. Fact.

Let's take the Ant going in the mines for example. Why didn't the terrains just go "Let's let them know that"? Surely they would have turned their ship around at that point. Unless they want to blow themselves up. So the terrains want to prevent an incident but THEN proceed to try and turn the ant an argon on each other? I call bull. The terrains quite clearly are operating on grudges and resentment. Again, at least the Argon aren't pretending.

Would you trust somoene that goes "Open fire quickly" instead of "Let's talk it out more?" Something the terrains repeatedly do over and over and over again. The argons aren't that bad. Not even the split or paranid are that bad. The argons at least limit it to once big incident. All these "little fires" are building up. Even the split will at least go "We want your slaves" right in your face. Noticed how the honest Zyroth are in a stronger position while the cowardly free families will have xenon on all sides as they fight their own split? That could be the terrains if they're not careful. If you make targets of everyone, at some point you target yourself. Rebellion. It takes a while for it to happen, but it's what happens when empires go "Target everything". History proves it over and over.

Fact: The terrains were isolated. This is a fact.

Fact: They do give in to fear and paranoia. Wihch fuels their "lash outs". This is a fact.

Fact: They make targets at the first opportunity. Probably because they're so focused on the xenon. They "keep seeing a threat" and it becomes a bad habit. They quite literary live every day looking over their shoulder.

They've been isolated in their home system, remember. Did you play X3? The player had to reconnect the gates to earth. If you're not aware, the split WERE in contact with argon before they got cut off in X4. Which is why they're a bit less paranoid (still very warlike though. They're like Klingons in Star Trek basically).

I see the same pattern with many people and factions. History shows it in wars as well. Different reasons. Same old song and dance. Nothing you say changes the fact that the terrains are operating from pride and fear. The fear actually creates that pride. It blinds them to the fact that they could be finding other solutions. Because they're that focused on the xenon. They're trying to find "quick solutions" instead of slowing down. They act in haste with the ant going into the mines and the teledi at the gate. Only fools rush in blind. If you make threats that quickly, if you don't even think "Let that transport know about the mines" then that just proves it. It's bad diplomacy. Period. It's because they haven't been in touch with others enough. Fact. The split and paranid have had more time to adjust. Despite the past misunderstandings. The terrains aren't at that point yet.

The universe is bigger then your dad. Or me. The comprasion fits. I know psychology. I actually get people to face their fears often. If all you do is live under a rock then you don't understand what you fear. The terrains choose to be stupid. That's their mistake.

[Mightysword]

If you kill someone by accident then you're an IDIOT.

Looked up Maryann Gray, an 8 years old dashed in front of her car and get killed. Was she an idiot?

Nothing you say changes the fact that the terrains are operating from pride and fear.

Funny, 'cause I'm not saying that at all. not even trying. I never said the Terran had made the correction decision, I never said the Terran was right. I just point there are no comparable circumstance to "judge" the Terran character in the way you're doing.

The universe is bigger then your dad. Or me.

I know, and I thought that's exactly what I'm trying to say?

The comprasion fits.

No it doesn't.

[Taramafor]

If you blindly dash in front of a car, then yes, you are an idiot. You didn't look. You rushed in blind. Unless you intended to get in front of that car. What does this have to do with the terrains though? What's your point here?

Isolation is isolation. The comparison fits. Lack of contact with others leading to bad diplomacy. That is why the comparision fits.

[Mightysword]

Not to mention, before gate reopened in X3 Reunion, Terran could think that everything outside Sol is basically infested entirely by Xenons.

This is the reason why the Argon appear to be much more reasonable than the Terran, it's a design by circumstance. Human is always great at adaption, as long as it's a constant. Over 800 years, despite living under constant threat of Xenon, it's a threat that the Argon live by and accustomed to. Not to mention, they have the CW races around them, who they know if shit hit the fan they won't stand alone. Even if Argon prime is decimated, there are other planets they can go to.

The Terran had none of those, and to human, a persistent-real threat is much more easy to adapt to an unknow threat. Just like you said, unless someone can tell them and make them to believe otherwise, Terran's society is pretty much shaped - for 800 years - that the next time they're connected it will be a battle of life and death. One can certainly argue that the Terran has the wrong mentality, but one can't judge them for it.

If you blindly dash in front of a car, then yes, you are an idiot.

I think it's very clear you're jumping a lot of gun and making many un-due assumption here. The woman didn't get killed, she killed the child who dashed in front of her car. She "accidentally" killed someone.

[Taramafor]

The fact that you say it was an accident only proves it happened from ignorance and stupidity then.

You're just giving me ammo to prove that people operate on blindness instead of knowing what they're doing. Is your quotes about "Accidentally" indicating that you assume she intended to do it? Or are you the one making assumptions?

Either way this has nothing to do with the current topic. Let's get back to the topic at hand. The simple fact of the matter is that the terrains were isolated and it leads to bad diplomacy.

[Mightysword]

The fact that you say it was an accident only proves it happened from ignorance and stupidity then.

What I said? FYI, the woman wasn't even charged because no one can look at the situation and see it's intentional. So if it's not intentional, guess what it would be? Also, this is the exact framework that you put up:

If you kill someone by accident then you're an IDIOT. If you kill someone with intent then at least you intended to do it and know what you're dong.

Again, we're following your framework, not mine.

You're just giving me ammo to prove that people operate on blindness instead of knowing what they're doing.

No, I'm not giving you ammo for anything. You put up a false statement and conjecture, all I do is provide a very simple real life example to debunk it. What is happening is you're trying to handwave and twist it to make yourself feel right.

Let's get back to the topic at hand.

No thanks, with the way you handle the argument, I don't think any more fruitful discussion can be haved between us, so I'll excuse myself.

[ubuntufreakdragon]

Yeah, sort they sort of are and aren’t.

After the remaining Terran colonies regrouped after the first terraformer war the argon government decided to abandon any relations to earth and struck it from all records. Too the argon’s the terrans, and earth, never existed besides for a small fringe group that insisted that they did.
So, all of a sudden this mythical planet shows up, annihilates the undeniably strongest species in the jump gate network and wants to reintegrate the Argon into is sphere.

This is one aspect of the Argon lore that doesn't make sense to me, or too extreme. There were only 800 years between the terraform war and the event of X2, that's a very short time. I understand from the inspiration that the Argon in the past want to make a statement "we're on our own and must look forward", but that wouldn't just magically turn the existence of Earth into a myth and religion, especially in such an advance technological state.

What do we know about King Arthur today?
Quite reasonable to forget such things especially digital storage types crumble fast.
Generally a loss of the written documentation and a single generation and everything is gone.
Now imagine a Xenon shooting at some libraries during the war.

Second, the Argon is supposed to be originated from the crew of the UCS Dragonfly. Even if we're generous and say there were a few thousand of crew survive and landed on Argon prime, 800 years is an astounding fast to raise an entirely new interstellar civilization from the ground up. How does the Argon manage to stabilize their population and diversify their genepool to avoid inbreeding especially since X universe doesn't have species cross breeding is a big question mark.

2. Terrans do not represent the majority of humanity. There are more Argons than Terrans, a lot more if Antigone is included on the Argon side. If the goal is preserving as many humans as possible that's done by ensuring the survival of the Argons, not the Terrans.

What I understand that Terran is most number/population yet territory might seem smaller.
Argon had larger territory but smaller populations, since it's only couple hundred year, what I understand. so few small number crew from descendants of the fleet of commanded by Nathan R. Gunne lore, so we don't know there is too many male and few female, so they can't grow populations that quicker, it's might be still slow and growing while Terran grow crazy due already more than billion of populations.

You are quite much underestimating the exponential function, if the there is enough habitable space populations grow exponential, lets assume something moderate like 4 children pre couple and a generation lasting 30 years.
We well know humans can average at 10 or more children under the right circumstances.
4 children per couple mean a population duplication every 30 years, for 300 years this means 2^10=1024, so at 800 years we get 100 000 000 as a factor for the starting population, lets assume it to be 1000 we still get 100 000 000 000 Argons compared to at most 25 000 000 000 Terrans(counting systems not available in X4) that can not grow due to limited space and resources, Earth may hold half of it the rest is spread to the habitable structures and terraformed planets.
Now think of a staring population of 20 000 which is more realistic if some colony survived.

[THE_TrashMan]

X-universe story wise, there were two Xenon CPU ships that gained sentience, become peaceful, contacted with Boron and Ancients and they peacefully left to join Ancients hivemind.

I vomited reading that. Whatever writer wrote that should kill themselves from shame.

[THE_TrashMan]

Except the terrains, again, CREATED the xenon. That's even more of a threat then the xenon themselves. How can they be trusted not to do it again? And with how paranoid they are and how easily they are to resort to lashing out from fear and anger, well, would you trust that?

Because they banned AGI and are actively trying to stamp it out?

What are Argon doing - other then experimenting with AHI and unleashing it on the galaxy?

All the argons really did is send back their own toys. Right back at "god". Maybe if the terrains weren't trying to turn the argons and ant against each other they might be thinking of ways to coexist. Instead they seem determined to make enemies. That's not the argons fault. That's the terrains. Two wrongs don't make a right here.

Maybe if the Argons weren't the ones who are now playing god with AGI then maybe they wouldn't need a bonk on the head.

The indignation at terrans making the terraformers is pointless. It is long in the past and they are doing everything they can to fix it. Meanwhile, the argon in the present are acting like retards.

I'm looking at it as how others might see it. Personally I know there's better ways to handle the situation. But that's "me" and "you". How are others viewing this? Look at it from the perception of an argon that lost everything to xenon and looks at terrains, who created the xenon. What's going through their mind?

You do realize terrans and argon share the same ancestors, right? The same ancestors that made the AGI?
It's not that TERRANS made AGI, HUMANS made AGI before the split. Argon are also human.
Follow your own logic. If terrans carry the blame of their ancestors, then the argon share the EXACT SAME BLAME.

[mr.WHO]

X-universe story wise, there were two Xenon CPU ships that gained sentience, become peaceful, contacted with Boron and Ancients and they peacefully left to join Ancients hivemind.

I vomited reading that. Whatever writer wrote that should kill themselves from shame.

In grand sheme of things, this is irrelevant - absolute majority of Xenon/Terraformers are still murderous beserker drones

Still this makes sentience an interesting attack vector as it would actually make Xenon asking the question:
- "WTF am I doing?"
<looks at burned down planet>
<looks at angry biologicals fleets>
<looks at terraforming definition>
- whoooooooops

[Pesanur]

X-universe story wise, there were two Xenon CPU ships that gained sentience, become peaceful, contacted with Boron and Ancients and they peacefully left to join Ancients hivemind.

I vomited reading that. Whatever writer wrote that should kill themselves from shame.

You know that in X3TC and X3AP are friendly terraformers in Aldrin, not?

[bbn]

What I understand that Terran is most number/population yet territory might seem smaller.

Terrans have around 17 billion humans, almost all on Earth + Segaris adds a few million more.
Humans in the gate network:
Argon Prime: 8 billion
The Reach: 7 billion
Morning Star: 7.5 billion
Second Contact: 7 billion
Antigone Memorial: 5 billion

Which only shows how unimaginative it is (and most sci fi is) - even at 1% population growth rate, after 800 years the initial Argon population would be in quadrillions. With the level of technology shown in the lore, there should be no issues with supporting such population.