Are Argon are a traitor to humankind?

[humility925]

Since Argon blow up Earth's Torus, Do Terran hate Argon with passive and see argon as traitor to humankind, won't allied with Argon and won't join Commonwealth? Your Thoughts? What would you do as you are Terran? (Well you are born and live Earth, clearly, LOL)

[Teladi CEO]

Yeah, sort they sort of are and aren’t.

After the remaining Terran colonies regrouped after the first terraformer war the argon government decided to abandon any relations to earth and struck it from all records. Too the argon’s the terrans, and earth, never existed besides for a small fringe group that insisted that they did.
So, all of a sudden this mythical planet shows up, annihilates the undeniably strongest species in the jump gate network and wants to reintegrate the Argon into is sphere. The argon which view themselves to be a different species. Fearing that they will be annihilated like the Khaak were, they launch a strike on the Torus and invade the system with a Xenon fleet.

So my perspective is that the argon, even though they don’t view it as such, did more than betray the terrans. They attempted to genocide them. Even after the terrans saved them during the battle of heretics end

[magitsu]

Here's a timeline for the major events at least:
https://www.egosoft.com:8444/confluence ... I/Timeline

In my opinion the gate closures probably have had significant effects. Whether inevitable turning inwards means just self-reliance or xenophobia is more subjective.

[xant]

The relations were strained even under the best of circumstances, but that's on both sides. ARG wanted TER to join the Argon Federation when the gate opened in X3R, so it was clear that they saw themselves in the leading role. They also actively suppressed their Earth origin and belittled the Goners, and in the end resorted to using AI and Xenons to deal a massive blow to the Terrans. They were absolutely willing to kill billions of people here, and only the self-sacrifice of Elena Kho prevented that.

While TER could've been a bit more diplomatic, all things considered, and their actions backed ARG into a corner, I'd say that the Argons lost their cool first and damaged the relationship beyond repair.

But calling them traitors? After almost a thousand years they're culturally so far apart from Earth, that I'd say they're not part of humankind anymore. Sure, the common origin and that they're genetically pretty similar is still there, but beyond that? There is just no common ground between ARG and TER. They're both completely different nations, with different goals and different views. You could as well ask "are the Split traitors to humankind?", and you'd have pretty much the same answer. They owe nothing to Earth, and they have no obligation to submit and become subservient. I'd argue they didn't betray anything, except maybe their humanity argonity, when they deemed it acceptable to kill millions of innocent civilians to win a war they started in the first place.

[magitsu]

The minor factions inside larger ones, like in this case Goners could be either more or less favorable towards certain factions. Also corporations could be more free from historical baggage.
Ultimately it's probably a matter of how much the joint enemy connects. If XEN and KHK are seen as big problems, then humanoid factions probably understand their joint interests rather easily.

Does TER need commonwealth factions? Probably, but not as much as commonwealth factions need each other.

In X4 TER at least has some interest in expeditionary warfare, seeing as they send Intervention fleets.
On the other hand they are a bit xenophobic due to restricting access, but ultimately they run service guarantees citizenship scheme seeing as they eagerly accept any race player to join the TER auxiliaries mission chain.

ANT is also interesting, because it's again a case of gate getting cut off. Splinter from Argon, but what would their relation to TER/PIO be?

[mr.WHO]

I think canonically X4 follow X3:AP plot where Terrans make peace with Argon, so the active war and hostilities was ended before gate shutdown gained momentum.

However, there is still general distrust and cold war relation. Antigone is just unfortunate of being close Argon Federation ally and bordering with Terrans, so it's easy for Terrans to assume ARG and ANT are one and the same.

This is also very well reflected in X4 Terran Secret Ops plot where you can trigger new Terran Coflict or drive a wedge between Antigone and Argon.


I could see a situation where with driving a wedge between Antigon and Argon, Antigone could be gradually aligned with Terran due to close proximity to both Terran and Pioneer.

[Toshis8]

As far as I am aware terrans didnt do anything bad to argon, argon destroyed Torus out of paranoia and fear. backstabby bastards.

[xant]

As far as I am aware terrans didnt do anything bad to argon, argon destroyed Torus out of paranoia and fear. backstabby bastards.

It wasn't completely unprovoked, if we go for accuracy here. TER accused ARG of being too lenient on AI, violated their sovereign space and paraded their fleet in it, threatening with intervention (aka attacking). That wasn't exactly nice.

But those were just words, born out of real concern, and they carried a fair bit of truth in them. To make things worse, ARG did exactly what TER was accusing them of, weaponized Xenon against fellow humans and tried to wipe out TER by letting loose billions of drones to wreak havoc in Sol. They had no regard for the aftermath either, no plan beyond "let's create a bigger AI enemy to wipe out our organic enemy".

People like to sh*t on TER for being isolationist and xenophobe, but other than maybe the Borons, every other faction is problematic and to some degree not trustworthy: TEL are opportunistic, PAR are cautiously cooperative to hostile depending on their current politics, SPL are aggressive slavers, ARG is morally questionable, if not corrupt.

I hope ANT is a bit better and doesn't repeat the mistakes of ARG, and that the Argon Federation will learn from the mistakes of the past. Maybe it is really time to have a Terran Federation instead.

[jlehtone]

One human tribe wiping another tribe out (kill men, destroy habitats, take women as slaves) is a recurring tale.
Humans killing humans is "normal". Argons just had "modern" scale to it -- and were not thorough.

Argons use AGI (for "self defense"). Terrans consider that a repeat of mistake (that they made themselves).
Is ChatGPT an opportunity or a threat? Is its use treason?

Terrans created Terraformers and unwittingly changed them into AGI Xenon. Doesn't that make the Terrans
the traitors to humankind? (Or perhaps some Terrans and Argons -- Saya Kho was both -- commited atrocities?)

[mr.WHO]

Terrans created Terraformers and unwittingly changed them into AGI Xenon. Doesn't that make the Terrans
the traitors to humankind? (Or perhaps some Terrans and Argons -- Saya Kho was both -- commited atrocities?)

The difference is that Terrans are now actively trying to clean-up the sh*t they made by launching anti-Xenon expeditions.

Argons just actively tried to make Xenon thread escalate even more, very like in X4 Yaki plot, if you decide to help them with Xenon beacons to Sol.

[Witzzard]

Eh... Both have humans as people, both try to to what they think is best for their people. So it's hardly traitor to humanity.
The thing is, the whole ware was basically both sides not wanting to actually try diplomacy and try to trust the other. It seems akin to one side wanting a treaty banning all nuclear technology, whereas one is arguing about nuclear energy, but ends up nuking the other side, as the other side has the stronger conventional army and tries to bring that to bear...

X3:TC onwards felt to me though as if Argons were generally using tactics most people think of as underhanded. Working together with Pirates and the guy who brough the Xenons about (though Argons might not have known about that), while using big espionage missions to counter the military might of Terrans. Not that the Terrans were really right. But the game clearly just shows one side using weapons that will clearly cause mass casaulties on the civilian side. It's basically Argons dropping nukes, in cooperation with terrorists...
If we'd seen Terrans orbital bombarding Argon Prime or the like, it would have been more even grounded. But that's simply not the case from what i remember.

[humility925]

One human tribe wiping another tribe out (kill men, destroy habitats, take women as slaves) is a recurring tale.
Humans killing humans is "normal". Argons just had "modern" scale to it -- and were not thorough.

Argons use AGI (for "self defense"). Terrans consider that a repeat of mistake (that they made themselves).
Is ChatGPT an opportunity or a threat? Is its use treason?

Terrans created Terraformers and unwittingly changed them into AGI Xenon. Doesn't that make the Terrans
the traitors to humankind? (Or perhaps some Terrans and Argons -- Saya Kho was both -- commited atrocities?)

Terran did use Terraformer to make life better, to grow and thrive, make barren planet become living beautiful but plan failed due unseem backfire, They wouldn't had to sent someone death, so it's would be machine program to make live better without worry of live lost, but somehow or some reason machine's code got error and messed up, so no, Terrans isn't traitors because Terran didn't choice to build machine to do war, but to make machine service to make life grow and thrive, but machine go other way around. You could said machine is traitors, but Terran was not traitors at all, in all original intent they build to make better chance to grow and thrive life without cost of humankind's life in danger travel of space.

Argon on otherhand, do choice, with harm intent/evil intent (not good young brother while older brother (terran do not seek to harm Argon, just set ground rule zeal, nothing more), did not care it's risk of danger rain down on earth that could cost countless live and even rare animal extinction, heavy damage on homeworld, is why it's come to my mind Argon is or are traitor to humankind, let alone humankind's original homeworld. Other faction like spilt would laughing and mocking humankind and thinking, good humankind are much weaker, easier to attack humankind or other new enemies come up on already weaker humankind.

Only thing I knew that Boron and Teladi had no desire to harm on whole humankind, whatever terran or argon, I woudn't surprised Terran would love to allied with Boron due Boron's peaceful and scientist and Terran do love scientist since they are technology advancement, of course Argon might don't like and even felt threat Terran and Boron Allied, make more deadly of technology advancement even faster and deeper. It's like Argon would be jealous Boron want hang out with Terran, but as for Teladi, Teladi had no desire of war but profit, similar grow and thrive. I guess.

I do understand Terran do might not get along with paranid and split similar Argon's mindlike, it's like Terran is older brother while Argon is younger brother fighting and picking each other yet similar mindset. I guess' both Terran and Argon's Pride and egos is biggest issues they don't get along. They even fighting Xenon same enemies yet picking each to other.

What I understand from game lore.

[THE_TrashMan]

Yes, Argon as scum.
They started the war with terrorism. Destruction of the Torus is inexcusable. It was a defensive, static structure in Terran space.

[THE_TrashMan]

But calling them traitors? After almost a thousand years they're culturally so far apart from Earth, that I'd say they're not part of humankind anymore. Sure, the common origin and that they're genetically pretty similar is still there, but beyond that? There is just no common ground between ARG and TER. They're both completely different nations, with different goals and different views. You could as well ask "are the Split traitors to humankind?", and you'd have pretty much the same answer.

Your species/race is not a cultural thing.

If the Chinese/USA/Russia of whomever decided to destroy all other human nations for their benefit, would you be singing the same tune?

[xant]

Your species/race is not a cultural thing.

If the Chinese/USA/Russia of whomever decided to destroy all other human nations for their benefit, would you be singing the same tune?

Bad example, as those nations are all involved with world politics one way or another.

A better example would be: imagine if the lost city of Atlantis suddenly came back from the depths of space. Genetically humans, but otherwise not connected to us in any way. Now they attack us and kill many other humans. Would you call them traitors to humankind, or would you see them as foreign invaders? Because that's the kind of rift there is between TER and ARG.

[THE_TrashMan]

Hardly.
For one, a scant fer hunderd years is hardly enough to cause any significant genetic drift. Culturally, no different than different human cultures and some have been separate for thousand of years.

Another thing to consider is that the hypothetical atlanteans are older and wiser, and that the reason they are attacking is because the other humans are being retards and creating bio-weapons that might wipe out humanity.

And if some ancient human hidden culture were to attack my government, I'd probably welcome them with open arms, cause my govenrment sucks.

[KextV8]

Yes. Argons are scum. Their planets should be terraformed.

[Toshis8]

Hardly.
For one, a scant fer hunderd years is hardly enough to cause any significant genetic drift. Culturally, no different than different human cultures and some have been separate for thousand of years.

Another thing to consider is that the hypothetical atlanteans are older and wiser, and that the reason they are attacking is because the other humans are being retards and creating bio-weapons that might wipe out humanity.

And if some ancient human hidden culture were to attack my government, I'd probably welcome them with open arms, cause my govenrment sucks.

Here, i've fixed it for you

"Another thing to consider is that the hypothetical atlanteans are older and wiser, and that the reason they are attacking is because the other humans are being retards and creating more retards".

[ubuntufreakdragon]

This discussion bares any neutrality as all participants are Terrans.
Disrespecting the sovereignty of another State is very close to starting a war, so an Argon claiming the Terrans started the war would have some truth.
A Terran claiming the Argons started by a first strike also has some truth to it.
Given what was accomplished the Argon Federation was much more successful than the USC, and I can fully understand any Argon who doesn't want to live under Terran rule.
The cruelty of the first strike was partially dictated by the situation, the Federation was weakened by the Kha'ak and at a technological disadvantage, they stroke like a wounded animal.
All in all it is not that clear, who is to blame.

[jlehtone]

If ...X... of whomever decided to destroy all other human nations for their benefit, would you be singing the same tune?

if some ...X... were to attack my government, I'd probably welcome them with open arms, cause my govenrment sucks.

Are there supporting or contradictory statements?