Are Argon are a traitor to humankind?

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Re: Are Argon are a traitor to humankind?

Post by THE_TrashMan » Wed, 10. May 23, 15:08

jlehtone wrote:
Mon, 8. May 23, 23:10
THE_TrashMan wrote:
Mon, 8. May 23, 10:10
If ...X... of whomever decided to destroy all other human nations for their benefit, would you be singing the same tune?
THE_TrashMan wrote:
Mon, 8. May 23, 12:05
if some ...X... were to attack my government, I'd probably welcome them with open arms, cause my govenrment sucks.
Are there supporting or contradictory statements?
Nah. The first is a response to a claim that Argonians are not humankind anymore.

The second is quite clear. I cannot be betraying my nation (people) if the leaders of my nation are traitors. At the end of the day there may not be much difference, but as the old saying goes "If i only have one bullet and a traitor and an enemy in front of me, I'll shoot the traitor!"
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Re: Are Argon are a traitor to humankind?

Post by jambock » Thu, 11. May 23, 17:43

Are Argons traitors to Humanity? No, both Terrans and Argons are Humans.
Argons use dirth and genocidal tricks and allies with Terrorists for their own good? Yes.

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Re: Are Argon are a traitor to humankind?

Post by Mightysword » Thu, 11. May 23, 18:50

Teladi CEO wrote:
Sat, 6. May 23, 18:55
Yeah, sort they sort of are and aren’t.

After the remaining Terran colonies regrouped after the first terraformer war the argon government decided to abandon any relations to earth and struck it from all records. Too the argon’s the terrans, and earth, never existed besides for a small fringe group that insisted that they did.
So, all of a sudden this mythical planet shows up, annihilates the undeniably strongest species in the jump gate network and wants to reintegrate the Argon into is sphere.
This is one aspect of the Argon lore that doesn't make sense to me, or too extreme. There were only 800 years between the terraform war and the event of X2, that's a very short time. I understand from the inspiration that the Argon in the past want to make a statement "we're on our own and must look forward", but that wouldn't just magically turn the existence of Earth into a myth and religion, especially in such an advance technological state.

Second, the Argon is supposed to be originated from the crew of the UCS Dragonfly. Even if we're generous and say there were a few thousand of crew survive and landed on Argon prime, 800 years is an astounding fast to raise an entirely new interstellar civilization from the ground up. How does the Argon manage to stabilize their population and diversify their genepool to avoid inbreeding especially since X universe doesn't have species cross breeding is a big question mark. :gruebel:
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Re: Are Argon are a traitor to humankind?

Post by Surimi » Fri, 12. May 23, 03:07

Mightysword wrote:
Thu, 11. May 23, 18:50
Second, the Argon is supposed to be originated from the crew of the UCS Dragonfly. Even if we're generous and say there were a few thousand of crew survive and landed on Argon prime, 800 years is an astounding fast to raise an entirely new interstellar civilization from the ground up. How does the Argon manage to stabilize their population and diversify their genepool to avoid inbreeding especially since X universe doesn't have species cross breeding is a big question mark. :gruebel:
A few thousand people or even a few hundred people would be more than enough to avoid any problems with inbreeding, but according to the Encyclopedia, due to the previous wave of human colonization there were around 20,000 surviving colonists who settled on Argon prime at the end of the Terraformer wars.

It doesn't make much sense that the Argon still have the same broad ethnic groups as we do today, but over this much time the same may well be true of the Terrans. It's pretty standard in science fiction to assume that future humans would still look like modern humans.

The story of the X universe has a few weird parallels to Battlestar Galactica (although the 2004 series wasn't made when X:BtF released). References aside, it doesn't make a huge amount of sense that people would just forget earth existed, but maybe the early survivors agreed to suppress knowledge of earth to help subsequent generations adjust to their situation.

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Re: Are Argon are a traitor to humankind?

Post by Mightysword » Fri, 12. May 23, 04:23

Surimi wrote:
Fri, 12. May 23, 03:07
The story of the X universe has a few weird parallels to Battlestar Galactica (although the 2004 series wasn't made when X:BtF released).
The one BG made sense for both Earths. The first one originated some 3600 years ago, enough time for it to be forgotten and become myth. The second (real) earth works because the settle decided to reset their culture/progression to 0 and become cavemen again. That's not what the Argon did.
References aside, it doesn't make a huge amount of sense that people would just forget earth existed, but maybe the early survivors agreed to suppress knowledge of earth to help subsequent generations adjust to their situation.
Again, it's perfectly fine for them to re-branch themselves as a show of resolve. It's like how the 13 colony no longer considered attached to Britain after the American evolution. And I doubt many modern American consider themselves related to British origin in anyway. It's just the whole "erase Earth from record and it became a myth" that doesn't make sense. Take one very simple issue: how does Argon youngs are taught history? The Argon's history is still too short for mystification of origin to work. And they still remember the Xenon war. Basically, Argon history can't avoid acknowledging Earth, it creates way too many paradox for them.

Unless they fabricated stuffs to fill the whole. For example saying Argon has always been on AP for million of years and evolve from cavemen to spacefarring species all along. Or that they're a being created by a blackhole and arrived on AP shortly after already as an advance civilization. Saying "we no longer consider ourselves an Earthling but our own people" is one thing, but erase acknowledgement of Earth to a point it becomes a myth? That's ... a very very big gap to jump over, especially in such a "tiny" time frame.
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Re: Are Argon are a traitor to humankind?

Post by THE_TrashMan » Fri, 12. May 23, 14:57

jambock wrote:
Thu, 11. May 23, 17:43
Are Argons traitors to Humanity? No, both Terrans and Argons are Humans.
Yes, because they did something that endangers ALL of humanity (and beyond.)
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Re: Are Argon are a traitor to humankind?

Post by jambock » Fri, 12. May 23, 17:27

THE_TrashMan wrote:
Fri, 12. May 23, 14:57
jambock wrote:
Thu, 11. May 23, 17:43
Are Argons traitors to Humanity? No, both Terrans and Argons are Humans.
Yes, because they did something that endangers ALL of humanity (and beyond.)
They endangered all life forms of the know universe; don't diminish their work please. But i still don't see them as traitors, just their leadership and those that follow them blindly are.

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Re: Are Argon are a traitor to humankind?

Post by GCU Grey Area » Fri, 12. May 23, 18:05

No, would not consider Argons traitors myself. Couple of reasons:
1. Argons & Terrans are two distinct polities. Is it possible to be a traitor to a government to which one owes no allegiance?
2. Terrans do not represent the majority of humanity. There are more Argons than Terrans, a lot more if Antigone is included on the Argon side. If the goal is preserving as many humans as possible that's done by ensuring the survival of the Argons, not the Terrans.

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Re: Are Argon are a traitor to humankind?

Post by jlehtone » Fri, 12. May 23, 21:48

Mightysword wrote:
Fri, 12. May 23, 04:23
Take one very simple issue: how does Argon youngs are taught history? The Argon's history is still too short for mystification of origin to work. And they still remember the Xenon war. Basically, Argon history can't avoid acknowledging Earth, it creates way too many paradox for them.
What kind of history was taught to children in Soviet Union? That country did not exist even a century. What subjects are [not] on curriculum on some [US] states? It seems that even real governments can skew "truth". A question is, how much fabrication is plausible.

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Re: Are Argon are a traitor to humankind?

Post by Mightysword » Fri, 12. May 23, 21:56

jlehtone wrote:
Fri, 12. May 23, 21:48
What kind of history was taught to children in Soviet Union? That country did not exist even a century. What subjects are [not] on curriculum on some [US] states? It seems that even real governments can skew "truth". A question is, how much fabrication is plausible.
That's ... exactly kinda my point? I wrote:

Mightysword wrote:
Fri, 12. May 23, 04:23
Unless they fabricated stuffs to fill the whole. For example saying Argon has always been on AP for million of years and evolve from cavemen to spacefarring species all along. Or that they're a being created by a blackhole and arrived on AP shortly after already as an advance civilization. Saying "we no longer consider ourselves an Earthling but our own people" is one thing, but erase acknowledgement of Earth to a point it becomes a myth?
For the story to be the way it is, there gotta be some hardcore censorship and whitewashing of Argon's history that would make even comrade Stalin pink with jealousy. :wink:
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Re: Are Argon are a traitor to humankind?

Post by humility925 » Fri, 12. May 23, 22:00

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Fri, 12. May 23, 18:05
2. Terrans do not represent the majority of humanity. There are more Argons than Terrans, a lot more if Antigone is included on the Argon side. If the goal is preserving as many humans as possible that's done by ensuring the survival of the Argons, not the Terrans.
What I understand that Terran is most number/population yet territory might seem smaller.
Argon had larger territory but smaller populations, since it's only couple hundred year, what I understand. so few small number crew from descendants of the fleet of commanded by Nathan R. Gunne lore, so we don't know there is too many male and few female, so they can't grow populations that quicker, it's might be still slow and growing while Terran grow crazy due already more than billion of populations.

Now, Terran could move out to seek new life due it's getting too crowd on earth, (they already born and live on station here and there in Sol System.)

I wouldn't be surprised Terran people would flow to couple Argon world, and stronger win culture for Terran due huge number people starting set up and living on Argon world, even name might be changed since Argon is smaller populations. Why would Argon welcome to Terran? I think Argon Goverment don't like it due they would or fear lost power, but Argon people would welcome, new people, new family to marry, so go on, it's make sense for Argon people welcome Terran for chance new family build up, or stronger together vs other alien form, I think Argon Goverment would lose in the end due flow of terran people, that gave more option for argon people more choice to marry and had family since it's limited/smaller populations.

Of course, there is no losing side for Argon people and Terran people, but it's losing side for Argon goverment and even culture and history of their own version, they can't control or propaganda due most Terran knew truth and would tell Argon people truth, since Argon government wouldn't tell Argon people. That is big difference.

I think Terran Goverment from Earth still around and still might be live longer than Argon Goverment, Now, Terran join with Argon people on world, that would be life crisis, Terran Goverment might happy due it's easier to work with due earth already overcrowd while Terran people want to move out and grow along star, rather than stuck and get nowhere on earth. Terran with Argon people might be create new type of goverment, put away old argon goverment/terran goverment, but who know.

So I think Terran goverment might last longer than Argon goverment due Terran had so many population that need move out while Argon people need more humankind people for more option to find marry/family and same time stronger number vs other aliens.

That's come to my mind.

Noticed, While Terran might had single star system sol system, but they had full understand, more control in detail in sol system than any factions, they are master of sol system due lot of time explorer and build to max out in system, while other faction don't explorer star system in detail, because they see jumpgate, see world to living on, but not doing beyond of that world in that star system. It's just skip and take what they need, rather than stay and explorer fully 100% of that system like Terran do on Sol system.

Sometime government and people/citizen do not had same mindset similar, or same eye to eye. What goverment fear, but people/citizen do not fear, and welcome to it, point of views.
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Re: Are Argon are a traitor to humankind?

Post by GCU Grey Area » Fri, 12. May 23, 23:00

humility925 wrote:
Fri, 12. May 23, 22:00
What I understand that Terran is most number/population yet territory might seem smaller.
Terrans have around 17 billion humans, almost all on Earth + Segaris adds a few million more.
Humans in the gate network:
Argon Prime: 8 billion
The Reach: 7 billion
Morning Star: 7.5 billion
Second Contact: 7 billion
Antigone Memorial: 5 billion
so few small number crew from descendants of the fleet of commanded by Nathan R. Gunne lore, so we don't know there is too many male and few female, so they can't grow populations that quicker, it's might be still slow and growing while Terran grow crazy due already more than billion of populations.
As I understand it they're not necessarily all descendants of Gunne's crew. Many planets in the gate network were colonised - that's what the terraformers were for before they turned Xenon. There were also about 8 centuries between the Terraformer war & the events in X4. Plenty of time for planetary populations to grow to substantial numbers, particularly if it's assumed that they had access to a decent level of technology (esp. medical).

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Re: Are Argon are a traitor to humankind?

Post by humility925 » Tue, 16. May 23, 06:05

It's just don't make sense, that Terran colonizing then terran settlers simple forgot all thing and become Argon just like that? and become Argon due guy leading force who save Terran long ago (who himself is terran and love earth since he and his force do whatever to save earth/terran) whole thing do not add up. But again it's fantasy story that might not making sense in grand of scheme. If it real life, Argon and Terran would be allied, Argon would knew they are offspring from earth/terran, they would not forgot and would still support, even if Nathan R. Gunn would alive in story and would be shame to see Argon not helping Terran.

Surely not all Argon do forgot where they come from. It's would be carry a legand or story pass to pass, even they had technology to keep history and record (unless there evil person who want power and destroy those history and record, but even so, some people passed to children next to next as traditions at least)
Maybe it's possibly whole or most world forgot, but not many other world, and most world would not follow other world to forgot their own history even so.

So more I think about it, more it's don't make sense at all, Ah well.
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Re: Are Argon are a traitor to humankind?

Post by DanKara » Tue, 16. May 23, 07:18

humility925 wrote:
Sat, 6. May 23, 18:32
Since Argon blow up Earth's Torus,
It is my understanding, that the sabotage of the Torus was the deed of a single Person, Saya Kho as a result of the cold 'Terran Conflict'. Sayo Kho is the daughter of Elena Kho, which was born on Terra/Earth. Its part of the story from XbtF - X3AP and some of the books (especially Farnhams Legend and Watcher of the Gates - I think, but havent read).
Mightysword wrote:
Thu, 11. May 23, 18:50
This is one aspect of the Argon lore that doesn't make sense to me, or too extreme.
I believe the sequence of events was like this: Terra gaind access to the (unpopulated) Gatenetwork by happenstance, terraformed and colonized distant worlds (like Aldrin). Terraformers became Xenon and first Terraformer-War happend. Nathan R. Gunne (USC Dragonfly) destroyed a Jumpgate to keep approaching Xenon away from Earth and found himself in a (populated) Gatenetwork and found later some of the lost terran colonies. Those Terran Decendands choosed 'Sonra 4' as their homeplanet which later was renamed to Argon in memory of R.Gunne.
Memory of Earth faded (due to time and/or media/politics just like NS-Germany or RF-Russia or... and don't forget a place/libary 'Galactic Encyclopedia' on Antigone Memorial was destroyed during X2) ... some Still-Believers became the Goners, who mixed historical facts with mystical/religous beliefs and thus distanced themself more and more from average people.
I think thats plausible by and large...

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Re: Are Argon are a traitor to humankind?

Post by Surimi » Tue, 16. May 23, 09:19

DanKara wrote:
Tue, 16. May 23, 07:18
It is my understanding, that the sabotage of the Torus was the deed of a single Person, Saya Kho as a result of the cold 'Terran Conflict'. Sayo Kho is the daughter of Elena Kho, which was born on Terra/Earth. Its part of the story from XbtF - X3AP and some of the books (especially Farnhams Legend and Watcher of the Gates - I think, but havent read).
Saya and her husband Sherman Hiatu came up with the plan to destroy the torus, although they were both working as Argon Secret Service agents at the time. That said, the Argon Secret Service did do some other morally questionable things during the war, most notably cooperating with the criminal organization Beryll.

There's a bit of back and forth across different sources as to whether the Terran Conflict was a cold war or if it went hot at one point. The Terrans did order their entire fleet either into or next to Argon territory so their intention was very clearly to start a war.

The cold war was pretty much entirely the fault of the Terrans. The Terrans made extremely clear that they had no interest in any kind of mutual diplomatic relationship with anyone. There's a reason why pretty much everyone in X4 has negative relations with the Terrans.

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Re: Are Argon are a traitor to humankind?

Post by humility925 » Tue, 16. May 23, 23:53

Surimi wrote:
Tue, 16. May 23, 09:19
DanKara wrote:
Tue, 16. May 23, 07:18
It is my understanding, that the sabotage of the Torus was the deed of a single Person, Saya Kho as a result of the cold 'Terran Conflict'. Sayo Kho is the daughter of Elena Kho, which was born on Terra/Earth. Its part of the story from XbtF - X3AP and some of the books (especially Farnhams Legend and Watcher of the Gates - I think, but havent read).
Saya and her husband Sherman Hiatu came up with the plan to destroy the torus, although they were both working as Argon Secret Service agents at the time. That said, the Argon Secret Service did do some other morally questionable things during the war, most notably cooperating with the criminal organization Beryll.

There's a bit of back and forth across different sources as to whether the Terran Conflict was a cold war or if it went hot at one point. The Terrans did order their entire fleet either into or next to Argon territory so their intention was very clearly to start a war.

The cold war was pretty much entirely the fault of the Terrans. The Terrans made extremely clear that they had no interest in any kind of mutual diplomatic relationship with anyone. There's a reason why pretty much everyone in X4 has negative relations with the Terrans.
To be fair, I think it's not Terran's fault, they had been alone for long time, not training in diplomatic (maybe good at on humankind but not other alien just yet) so they prefer study and learning before do any diplomatic so they don't let any faction/alien taking advantage on them, but that still no excuses action of sabotrage of the Torus (it's not a offense station like death star, it's purely defense to keep earth safe and secure. Now, real question is that Do argon approved or go along with it Sayo Kho or not approved what Sayo Kho even Sayo Kho representation of Argon (All humankind is from Terran, but is Argon is all humankind? maybe not, since teladi might part of argon, or boron or even paranid or split might join and part of argon, but I think other holy Paranid would kill paranid that part of any faction that are not belong to paranid, Boron long desire to join/linked to Queendom, I'm doubting boron or Paranid part of Argon or Terran out of freewill for that matter due a culture with biology reason. Split or Teladi could join Argon or even terran or part of faction, since they are more of freewill due biology culture, I guess.
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Re: Are Argon are a traitor to humankind?

Post by Taramafor » Wed, 17. May 23, 02:23

THE_TrashMan wrote:
Mon, 8. May 23, 10:10
xant wrote:
Sat, 6. May 23, 18:58
But calling them traitors? After almost a thousand years they're culturally so far apart from Earth, that I'd say they're not part of humankind anymore. Sure, the common origin and that they're genetically pretty similar is still there, but beyond that? There is just no common ground between ARG and TER. They're both completely different nations, with different goals and different views. You could as well ask "are the Split traitors to humankind?", and you'd have pretty much the same answer.
:roll:

Your species/race is not a cultural thing.

If the Chinese/USA/Russia of whomever decided to destroy all other human nations for their benefit, would you be singing the same tune?
Here's the thing. Hitler saved a jew and actually tried to cancel the gas chambers. Because of a war though he wasn't exactly in a position to go "Let's make that a first priority". It was actually Himmler that did it, not Hitler.

My point is things aren't as they appear to be. Russia executes civies, sure, but those prisoners being drafted aren't given much of a choice. They'd waste away and live as nothing otherwise. So they make the best of a bad situation and admit what they do when caputred/turning themselves in. If they didn't follow orders they'd probably get shot themselves (WW2 proves Russia does this. Even heroes get executed if it's not under orders). American soldiers collected Japanese skulls too and Roosevelt even wanted more. We're all monsters in other words. The terrians see themselves as the "good" guys. Deluded. Hypocritical. And they look for someone to blame, which proves my point. Let's consider why that is. The Argon at least aren't pretending.

With the argons they saw the terrains as egotistic. And they'd be quite correct. The terrains bring their own irrational fear on themselves. The Terrains, being afraid as they are, had bad diplomatic talks with the argons. The argons also had the Khaak to worry about. Their tensions would be VERY high after that. X2. Their home sector of Argon Prime was attacked. The equivalent of earth. All one has to do is glance at the xenon to realize it can happen with them too. Where did the xenon come from again? Bingo. Earth. Terrains.

Look at how the terrains handle the talks with the teledi when they show up. Threats. Of opening fire. Instead of "What do you want?" they go "We'll destroy you". Ok, let's say the terrains do open fire then. Wouldn't that risk a potential war with the entire teledi race? The teledi might not be much of fighters themselves, but they'd surely send pirates as payback. The terrains are operating on fear. The desperation for protection actually puts them in MORE danger. Not less. Only they are blind to it.

The Terrains also have the nerve to try and turn the ant and argons on each other. What did the ant do? It's a COWARDLY tactic. Lies and secrets always backfire. Instead of trying "Let's talk it out properly", the terrains are resorting to "Let's be sneaky". Remember the real life cold war? The ONLY reason nukes weren't launched is because people talked it out. Do you even know how close we came to a nuke being launched? It was THAT close. So yea, of course the Argons, seeing the same mistakes with their own people most likely (Xenon aside), will be aware ANY race can make these mistakes. So why then would they trust the Terrains not too? They MADE the xenon. CREATED them. Look at it from that viewpoint. Even worse then nukes. A GALACTRIC threat. Regardless of wherever it was by intent or not, if you're stupid enough to make them in the first place then you're a threat. Either show you learn from mistakes or you're too stupid to not repeat the past mistakes. Did the terrains learn? They'd like to think so. But did they really?

If you play god then you're going to get seen as the creater. Are the xenon the bigger threat, or the ones that created them? It's the same story with geth and quarians in Mass Effect. In Mass Effect the Reapers control the galactic population (eg: They act like Xenon). But who MADE the AI in the FIRST place? This is proof enough that the terrains are an even bigger threat then the xenon themselves. Think the argons will risk them making more? The argons USE the xenon. But it's the terrains that MADE them. All the argon did is send them back to their creators. Can't handle your own toys? Your problem. You made the mess. You deal with it. Why should others suffer for that? That's going to be the argon mindset when they sent the xenon back on the terrains. At least those that do send them back.

The Terrains see the xenon as a threat that has to be destoyed at all costs. The Yaki however prove that this doesn't have to be the case. The xenon are programed to see organics as a threat. Somehow the Yaki get seen as "ally" to the Xenon. Or at least "Not a threat". Their cybernetic implaints maybe? Not all humans are going to want to live as cyborgs though. At the very least their ships fool the xenon. The terrains can either ally with the yaki or try to steal their tech. But if they resort to stealing then they're just making more enemies. The terrains, paranoid as they are, are backed into their home system. They're hiding. Like cowards. Afraid of the universe out there. The other species spread out. The terrains basically put a noose around their own neck. If you remain in one spot then you'll get surrounded and strangled. Real wars in history demonstrate this very point. The only way the terrains can counter the xenon effectively is by blocking that one flank. The other entry is in ARGON space. Unless the Terrains intend to fight the argon as well and weaken themselves then they'd be better off playing nice with them to counter the xenon together. Instead the Terrains try to turn the ant and argon on each other.

Lies and secrets always backfire in the long run. I value honesty. I know communication is key and pays off better when all is said and done. I would have actually gone "let's talk this out together. I'm calling the shots here", but since that's not an option due to game script limitations I instead have to go "I'm letting the ant and argon's know". Take that Terrains. Let that be a lesson to you about trying to turn allies on each other. You want to play that game with others? Then get your own medicine right back. All the terrains did with trying to turn the argon and ant against each other is look for someone to blame and hold a grudge because of their fear, paranoia and resentment. Regardless of who did what first, if you can't understand that people are going to make mistakes then why even be involved in politics in the first place?

We all know how that goes though. You're going to get a lot of idiots. Real life proves that enough. So of course it's going to apply in the game too. Just makes every logical immersive sense really. And it's up to the player to determine if the universe is going to play nice or turn on each other. Unfortunately the universe gets a bit inactive if you don't have it turning on each other. If only there was more threats when gaining allies to make use of them. Maybe a mod can address that somehow. So even though it's complete BS to turn allies on each other, it's also what makes the game more interesting. Which is why I'd do it. Shake things up with argon/Terrain war. have the xenon pick them apart as they fight each other. See how counter productive that is? Argon and ant? They fight each other. Xenon pick apart both sides instead of uniting against xenon. Whatever way I look at it it's aiding the xenon in the end. It's probably the only way to have the xenon remain a threat. So from a gameplay standpoint it makes sense. It also makes sense lore wise once you put the pieces together. Whatever side you take.

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Re: Are Argon are a traitor to humankind?

Post by Surimi » Wed, 17. May 23, 20:37

humility925 wrote:
Tue, 16. May 23, 23:53
To be fair, I think it's not Terran's fault, they had been alone for long time, not training in diplomatic (maybe good at on humankind but not other alien just yet) so they prefer study and learning before do any diplomatic so they don't let any faction/alien taking advantage on them, but that still no excuses action of sabotrage of the Torus (it's not a offense station like death star, it's purely defense to keep earth safe and secure.
I think the Terran response is somewhat understandable. A significant proportion, if not a majority, of Earth's population died during the first Terraformer war and it seems to have shaped a lot of their history and culture. Whereas the Argon became a democratic federation of multiple planets who valued freedom and autonomy, the Terrans seem to have remained centralized, authoritarian and xenophobic. However, even the Paranid, who have way more historical reasons to dislike the Argon and follow a religion which literally teaches that they are superior to all other species, were able to coexist peacefully with the Argon Federation for hundreds of years as part of the community of planets. The Terrans get rediscovered, reject all offers of friendship, immediately start working against the people who discovered them and were ready to launch a full on invasion within a few years.

The only reason sabotaging the Torus was so devastating was that the entire Terran fleet had been sent to the Argon border to prepare for the obvious invasion. Moral or not, sabotaging the Torus worked. It ended the Terran Conflict and may well have saved the Argon Federation and a huge number of human lives. Beryll unleashing a bunch of AGI ships into the solar system complicates things, but even then you could argue that the ends (stopping the impeding war) justify the means.

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THE_TrashMan
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Re: Are Argon are a traitor to humankind?

Post by THE_TrashMan » Thu, 18. May 23, 07:52

jambock wrote:
Fri, 12. May 23, 17:27
They endangered all life forms of the know universe; don't diminish their work please. But i still don't see them as traitors, just their leadership and those that follow them blindly are.
That goes without saying. When someone says Americans/Russians/Aagon/Whatever in a geopolitical sense, they usually mean the governemnt, not the people.

The action of Terrans could be considered a danger to the Argon Government.
The action of the Argon were a danger to the known universe.
- Burning with Awesomeness

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Fulgrymm
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Re: Are Argon are a traitor to humankind?

Post by Fulgrymm » Thu, 18. May 23, 07:57

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesss.

But only after Saya Kho blew up the Torus, before that point they were just long lost cousins.

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