X3 Missiles be like

[As25]

Been playing X3 while waiting for the Boron dlc. In case anyone forgot how spectacular missiles were in that game (pretty broken though).

https://youtu.be/s5sJf3_76YI

I'm not really going to talk about balance, but I will say that I do like the damage X3 missiles had, but I think the range (can kill ships from across the sector, without even moving your ship) and swarm mechanics were too much.

Anyway, main reason for posting is for the video. It is a fun watch, I think.

[magitsu]

Didn't expect the video to be quite the banger it ended up being.
Skirnir goes brr etc. that kind of feels could carry a whole dlc.

Some things indeed would need adjusting. For example the time to kill seen in the video is far too low compared to everything in X4. Nevertheless, they still feel more worthwhile than the currrent iteration and it's borderline fake missile defense.

[KextV8]

In X3TC/AP, only swarm missiles even worked enough to bother carrying them though tbh. Everything else just got shot down. Barrages were required to put enough missiles into the air that some got through.

[LameFox]

In X3 I didn't use missiles much because it was such a pain to produce them and fire them in useful quantities. Only on a few dedicated missile ships, or with mods, were they really worth the bother.

In X4 I don't use missiles much because it's such a pain to resupply them, and I have so little control over what type is resupplied and what it will be used on. I'll stick them on defence platforms, and a few specific ships intended as bombers.



It does represent a slight improvement IMO, but the entire category of weapon feels neglected. What I want to do is, at the very least, be able to specify a missile type to resupply so that it's not just 'the biggest, most expensive one you have a blueprint for'. Then I could have, for instance, interceptors firing light missiles, which my carrier resupplies with light missiles, without me having to say so every single time. What I'd really like in an ideal world is the ability to give a ship two(!!!) or more kinds of missile and specify what it should use them on. Sadly it seems we won't get there for a few more games, at this rate.

[As25]

What I'd really like in an ideal world is the ability to give a ship two(!!!) or more kinds of missile and specify what it should use them on. Sadly it seems we won't get there for a few more games, at this rate.

You should know that ships in X3 actually do this, and without me having to point it out for them. For instance, my Scimitars use Poltergeist (12k damage) against fighters, and Specter (260k) against corvettes and above. Pretty sure if you use something like Novas with Wasp, Silkworm and Tempest they will use them against M5, M4 and M3 respectively.

I was surprised when I saw this behavior was gone in X4.

[LameFox]

What I'd really like in an ideal world is the ability to give a ship two(!!!) or more kinds of missile and specify what it should use them on. Sadly it seems we won't get there for a few more games, at this rate.

You should know that ships in X3 actually do this, and without me having to point it out for them. For instance, my Scimitars use Poltergeist (12k damage) against fighters, and Specter (260k) against corvettes and above. Pretty sure if you use something like Novas with Wasp, Silkworm and Tempest they will use them against M5, M4 and M3 respectively.

I was surprised when I saw this behavior was gone in X4.

Yeah, I remember doing that although I wasn't sure if it was modded or not. Unfortunately the production and supply got in the way of turning it into more widespread use. It would have been a lot more useful in this game, if paired with better resupply options.

Why they chose to dumb it down in X4, I don't really know. Same with the turret options. Both of these could have been direct upgrades from the older game, instead they chose to make some aspects worse.

[dtpsprt]

What I'd really like in an ideal world is the ability to give a ship two(!!!) or more kinds of missile and specify what it should use them on. Sadly it seems we won't get there for a few more games, at this rate.

You should know that ships in X3 actually do this, and without me having to point it out for them. For instance, my Scimitars use Poltergeist (12k damage) against fighters, and Specter (260k) against corvettes and above. Pretty sure if you use something like Novas with Wasp, Silkworm and Tempest they will use them against M5, M4 and M3 respectively.

I was surprised when I saw this behavior was gone in X4.

Yeah, I remember doing that although I wasn't sure if it was modded or not. Unfortunately the production and supply got in the way of turning it into more widespread use. It would have been a lot more useful in this game, if paired with better resupply options.

Why they chose to dumb it down in X4, I don't really know. Same with the turret options. Both of these could have been direct upgrades from the older game, instead they chose to make some aspects worse.

Both of you need to reconcile with the fact that X4 is a managerial simulation more than it is a space one, especially when it comes to fighting. NPCs are there to fight wars to keep the economy running... The player, no matter how battle hungry they are, finally have no other option but to engage in industry and some empire building... If one chases the plots because they want to play for the game and not to achieve some self inflicted goal, then management will be what they'll be doing 80% of the time.

Missiles were not a problem for me to produce in X3, In fact they were my steady source of income but I never use any kind of weapon that needs "refilling" no matter how good and sophisticated it might be...

[LameFox]

Both of you need to reconcile with the fact that X4 is a managerial simulation more than it is a space one, especially when it comes to fighting. NPCs are there to fight wars to keep the economy running... The player, no matter how battle hungry they are, finally have no other option but to engage in industry and some empire building... If one chases the plots because they want to play for the game and not to achieve some self inflicted goal, then management will be what they'll be doing 80% of the time.

Missiles were not a problem for me to produce in X3, In fact they were my steady source of income but I never use any kind of weapon that needs "refilling" no matter how good and sophisticated it might be...

I would not mind so much if they marketed it as that, but well, look at the trailers, steam store page, and so on.

This game is not supposed to be 'a managerial simulation'. They present it as offering all kinds of different options, then only flesh out one of them.

[As25]

Both of you need to reconcile with the fact that X4 is a managerial simulation more than it is a space one, especially when it comes to fighting. NPCs are there to fight wars to keep the economy running... The player, no matter how battle hungry they are, finally have no other option but to engage in industry and some empire building... If one chases the plots because they want to play for the game and not to achieve some self inflicted goal, then management will be what they'll be doing 80% of the time.

Missiles were not a problem for me to produce in X3, In fact they were my steady source of income but I never use any kind of weapon that needs "refilling" no matter how good and sophisticated it might be...

Missiles are not difficult for me to produce either. Aside from Shadows, I have 1, just 1 fab per each terran missile type and I have more than I can use. For Shadows I have 5 fabs.

A freighter with repeat orders (CSL) picks them up and drops them into a TL. I often have to sell the excess because the TL is getting full.

For the CW missiles I use Wasp, Tempest, Thunderbolts and Typhoons and I have 0 fabs. Once again, a freighter with repeat orders picks them up, just from NPC fabs this time. Those fabs get their resources from my MK3 traders and the locals.

You're wrong about npcs wars needed to keep the economy going (in X3). Because in X3, npcs ships spawn out of nowhere and consume no resources at all. All final products go either to an equipment dock, or a trading station, where they dispawn overtime without a npc actually consuming them.

[Belphegor2_3]

Indeed, missiles in X3 were a good part of the game... in most versions.
Nice to see, useful for you in many situations, not mandatory to play, etc.
When producing them, you could see your clients buying them to refill. True or false, you could imagine the risk of selling a deadly missile to a guy who would use it against you later.

But in some versions, missiles were also a joy killer. When a missile is an unescaple death coming from a random source that you cannot see, predict or avoid, this is not fun. Last times I played with X3 I had not the issue, because of turrets and so on, but I remember that this has been an issue before.
In the last game experience the joykiller was these automatically hitting and sometimes overkilling weapons (flamethrower, ...). Not fun to encounter, not fun to use. A dodge fight is more fun when you can dodge and fight.

X4 is, sadly, poor in terms of dodge fight.

I never experienced in X4 the pleasure I had in X2 to fight 1vs1, Nova vs Khaa'k M3, for example. Compared to this, missiles is just a detail.

To dtpsprt, NO, just NO. X4 is designed and sold as an X game, a rich game with many options, and first person low physic space flying and dodge fight is part of the game's core features. For each game main feature (dodge fight, industry simulation, war simulation, trade simulation...) there is at least one game that is better than X serie. What makes this serie special is that it provides an all-in-one sandbox in which we are free to spetialize on one aspect... or another.. and then change... and come back... and again. or not.

[LandogarX4]

Explosions in X3 unironically looked better than those in X4. What happened?

[Flippi]

I remember there being a bug in X3TC that turned missiles into wireguided TOW-type ones. I never managed to replicate that bug (maybe it had to do with bad performance?), but it was hilarious that you could point your crosshair somewhere and the missile would fly there. You could even do 180's and turn around. Don't know if others ever encountered that bug, as it was just weird.

In X4, I never even used missiles before. I don't see the worth in it due to the limited number of weapons on your ships. And I also don't fancy asymmetrical loadouts. Unless the ship itself is already asymmetrical I guess. And even then, reading about the AI not properly using the right type of ammo for their targets isn't all too encouraging either.

Only place where I would consider using missiles or torpedos, is as main weapon for cap ships as an alternative to the main guns. That could be interesting.

[Belphegor2_3]

Only place where I would consider using missiles or torpedos, is as main weapon for cap ships as an alternative to the main guns. That could be interesting.

I'm not fond of missiles because of maintenance cost, but I imagined using it in X4 with Quasar for example. With these ships holding more guns and having overheating issues, I thought a heavy torpedo addition would not be bad. What do you think about ?

[LameFox]

Explosions in X3 unironically looked better than those in X4. What happened?

I would guess the older ones were 2D hand painted. Probably looks good cheaply most of the time until you start to recognize the frames or see them in some condition that shows they're flat.

Only place where I would consider using missiles or torpedos, is as main weapon for cap ships as an alternative to the main guns. That could be interesting.

I'm not fond of missiles because of maintenance cost, but I imagined using it in X4 with Quasar for example. With these ships holding more guns and having overheating issues, I thought a heavy torpedo addition would not be bad. What do you think about ?

You mean Pulsar? That is the one with 6 guns. Quasar is that weird Argon ship built from spare Discoverers, it only has 4 guns IIRC so the heat shouldn't be too bad.

Personally while I like the idea of a fighter having 1 or 2 missile launchers on it, and otherwise fighting with guns, the lack of control over their use makes it less appealing in practice. They really spam their missiles like crazy and waste them on overkill, then run out. Even the limited re-targeting of the smart missiles doesn't really overcome the sheer waste. This makes the missiles better for brief engagements where you want to dump firepower on something big, e.g. bombers attacking a capital ship or station. Or a situation where you can just let it spam away happily, like a defence platform.

[dtpsprt]

..................................

You're wrong about npcs wars needed to keep the economy going (in X3). Because in X3, npcs ships spawn out of nowhere and consume no resources at all. All final products go either to an equipment dock, or a trading station, where they dispawn overtime without a npc actually consuming them.

I was referring to X4. Without wars the economy stagnates and the game comes to a halt in about 5 hours of playing it. Not game hours but real life hours with brakes for toilet, brew some coffee, hunt a beer or two in the fridge, shouting to your wife downstairs "coming dear" and forgetting about it... that kind of stuff included...

[dtpsprt]

Only place where I would consider using missiles or torpedos, is as main weapon for cap ships as an alternative to the main guns. That could be interesting.

I'm not fond of missiles because of maintenance cost, but I imagined using it in X4 with Quasar for example. With these ships holding more guns and having overheating issues, I thought a heavy torpedo addition would not be bad. What do you think about ?

Unfortunately the sad reality of X4 is that the missile bay on ships is extremely limited, even with the research mod that expands it, they do not last more than 2 passes at best... then try to leave to rearm... if the enemy has it in their mind to let you do it and do not shoot your empty ships to smithereens...

[Belphegor2_3]

You mean Pulsar? That is the one with 6 guns. Quasar is that weird Argon ship built from spare Discoverers, it only has 4 guns IIRC so the heat shouldn't be too bad.

Right. The one with 6 gun slots.

Personally while I like the idea of a fighter having 1 or 2 missile launchers on it, and otherwise fighting with guns, the lack of control over their use makes it less appealing in practice. They really spam their missiles like crazy and waste them on overkill, then run out. Even the limited re-targeting of the smart missiles doesn't really overcome the sheer waste. This makes the missiles better for brief engagements where you want to dump firepower on something big, e.g. bombers attacking a capital ship or station. Or a situation where you can just let it spam away happily, like a defence platform.

We'll see in v6 since according to release notes it changed, but I agree that missile turrets or even missile guns for AI ships is broken in current version. I was referring to player ship.

I spoke about the heavy torpedo as it is a powerful long range missile which could harm capital ships and their turrets. I did not think of anti-fighters missiles, as, given the number of small ships, this may quickly become expansive. I know I used sometimes swarm missiles in X2/X3 against fighters, but it was not really to kill them. It was to keep some them away while I dealt with the rest of their troop. I did not try this in X4.
Another usage of missiles in X2 that I did not try yet here is the missiles to bail: as some missiles had a fixed damage amount, long range, and very good hit rate, we could know how missiles to send to a pirate ship to quickly drop their shield and provoque a bail roll.
Last usage of missiles in X2/X3 I do not use anymore (while use a gun slot for this?) was to send a mosquito (good range, good hit rate, high velocity) to tell a ship "hey, I'm there ! come and try to kill me!" while they were faster than me. With cruise speed I don't think it is a real use case, or at least much less often.

[dtpsprt]

.........................................

Last usage of missiles in X2/X3 I do not use anymore (while use a gun slot for this?) was to send a mosquito (good range, good hit rate, high velocity) to tell a ship "hey, I'm there ! come and try to kill me!" while they were faster than me. With cruise speed I don't think it is a real use case, or at least much less often.

This will not work about half the time or more in X4 because the ships are not just spawned for the player to deal with but they are built with "real" resources and belong to factions, so obey certain orders and priorities.

[LameFox]

There is technically a missile you can use specifically to knock something out of travel drive, though I have not found it very useful in practice. This is another of those cases where I'd really like more control over it... it's not worth the slot on my player ship, but the AI are terrible at catching an enemy. Really tragically bad at it. If they were able to use something like that to keep a target from just wandering away from them, and then switch to a combat missile when fighting, it could be a big improvement and make the thing worth issuing.

[Flippi]

I'm not fond of missiles because of maintenance cost, but I imagined using it in X4 with Quasar for example. With these ships holding more guns and having overheating issues, I thought a heavy torpedo addition would not be bad. What do you think about ?

Fighters with more than two weapons are really rare in X4, at least compared to X3 where the average M5 had 4 guns, while M4 had 6 and M3 had 8. Plus the turrets a few fighters could get. On those ships, they might be worth it. But as others have written, there seems to be problems regarding missiles.

Unfortunately the sad reality of X4 is that the missile bay on ships is extremely limited, even with the research mod that expands it, they do not last more than 2 passes at best... then try to leave to rearm... if the enemy has it in their mind to let you do it and do not shoot your empty ships to smithereens...

This Problem could be somewhat fixed, if we could allocate the different cargo spaces for different things with a slider. So instead of having room for deployables, or a 'regular' cargo bay, all of that would go into the ammo bay if you wished. Especially ships with large cargo bays could benefit from it (Teladi). But even the other faction ships could now use their cargo bays for something useful, instead of it being a waste.