The future of the 'teleportation' feature, X5 and beyond.

[Socratatus]

Thoughts?

I don't use teleportation.

Crews of my ships seem to switch ship very quickly ... almost like they would "teleport".

I don't use teleportation either. In fact I believe it's the only thing that mars an otherwise great game. I wouldn't mind it in a limited fashion, or optional, but it's ridiculously over-powered in this game and almost no one cares cos `convenient`.

Convenient does not always make a great game, just as Fast-Travel does not always make a great game. `Convenient` can be a great excuse for pure lazy and ruining a thing.

[dtpsprt]

Thoughts?

I don't use teleportation.

Crews of my ships seem to switch ship very quickly ... almost like they would "teleport".

I don't use teleportation either. In fact I believe it's the only thing that mars an otherwise great game. I wouldn't mind it in a limited fashion, or optional, but it's ridiculously over-powered in this game and almost no one cares cos `convenient`.

Convenient does not always make a great game, just as Fast-Travel does not always make a great game. `Convenient` can be a great excuse for pure lazy and ruining a thing.

Couldn't agree more... Egosoft had to come up with something to replace jump drive since, most obviously, they took into consideration what people that had played only X Rebirth gave input, in which jump drive was horrible.

And don't tell me anything about teleporting the PHQ, I have towed enough stations and Jump Gates in X2/X3/TC/AP with a Tractor Beam. If such a method was adopted it would really make Terraforming more interesting since the player would have to personally fly a strong enough (and therefore not agile) ship, making sure at the same time that the Tractor Beam held, going even slower because of all the mass they carry with them, stop tractoring a long way from where it will be placed so that it will glide and stop where it's intended to be, even micro adjusting the position with small tractor induced movements. A feat of itself instead of getting 10,000 Advanced Electronics and change (just a waiting and money burning game)...

[GCU Grey Area]

And don't tell me anything about teleporting the PHQ, I have towed enough stations and Jump Gates in X2/X3/TC/AP with a Tractor Beam. If such a method was adopted it would really make Terraforming more interesting since the player would have to personally fly a strong enough (and therefore not agile) ship, making sure at the same time that the Tractor Beam held, going even slower because of all the mass they carry with them, stop tractoring a long way from where it will be placed so that it will glide and stop where it's intended to be, even micro adjusting the position with small tractor induced movements. A feat of itself instead of getting 10,000 Advanced Electronics and change (just a waiting and money burning game)...

Like the idea, but slight flaw with that plan... https://www.dropbox.com/s/qb9ql1xkic7gz ... 1.jpg?dl=0

Only gripe I have with teleporting is that the research for moving my HQ is inextricably linked to personal teleportation. Need to research how to move my HQ because I very much enjoy terraforming. However researching personal teleportation is simply a waste of my time & resources, at least the last 3 stages of it. Can be handy to have the first stage researched (largely as a means of circumventing the occasional bug), however I much prefer to fly than teleport. Even though it sometimes means the reason I was rushing somewhere is no longer a pressing concern by the time I get there (although at least I can generally salvage it's ship mods, so not entirely a wasted trip). Incidentally, this is also one of the reasons I tend to favour L freighters & miners rather than flimsy M ships.

[dtpsprt]

..........................

Like the idea, but slight flaw with that plan... https://www.dropbox.com/s/qb9ql1xkic7gz ... 1.jpg?dl=0

Only gripe I have with teleporting is that the research for moving my HQ is inextricably linked to personal teleportation. Need to research how to move my HQ because I very much enjoy terraforming. However researching personal teleportation is simply a waste of my time & resources, at least the last 3 stages of it. Can be handy to have the first stage researched (largely as a means of circumventing the occasional bug), however I much prefer to fly than teleport. Even though it sometimes means the reason I was rushing somewhere is no longer a pressing concern by the time I get there (although at least I can generally salvage it's ship mods, so not entirely a wasted trip). Incidentally, this is also one of the reasons I tend to favour L freighters & miners rather than flimsy M ships.

The Gates would have been made bigger if Egosoft had planned on this, or the building box or PHQ dimensions smaller. Then the player would know the "limit" for the PHQ to move. Besides, supposing that the PHQ can fit inside a Gate (having more logical dimentions) it can be "stripped" from any "extra modules" and have them rebuilt in the new position.

Can you imagine the implications of such a thing? The player will need a regular "convoy", of course with escorts, to transfer everything to the new site the guard the place until it's "rebuilt". Wouldn't that add to the game's interest?

Right now you can "teleport" the PHQ right on top of that "pesky" Xenon Defense Station and blow it apart and instantly mind you... Where's the fun on that? Have you asked those guys that were rumbling about using the PHQ as a huge "bomb" how many times they have sacrificed their resources to do just that?

[gorgofdoom]

Why not fill the plot holes surrounding teleporting personnel instead of regressing to instant travel for cargo ships in a logistics game? It would fit in well to increase the 'value' of crew-- indeed i think crew should be more permeant & valuable than ships.

A few points which can be addressed:

1) crew dying needlessly: A crew pool on the HQ or a fleets parent ships could recover crew with a low success rate with pods, or high success rate with teleporters. Both considering morale, a higher risk of loss with low/no morale. Keeping crew alive would be a really nice bonus to the teleporting tech.

2) "why can't we teleport cargo?": I think this is pretty obvious, with how destructive the movement of the PHQ is, but it could use direct explanation. Maybe a fun fourth teleportation tech that fails horridy... but gives us a new weapon type or something to compensate for the time / make it interesting.

3) Boarding: Why are we using barely target-practice worthy pods to carry crew when we have teleportation & advanced hacking technology? At most, send just one expensive pod with a teleporter on it. Or perhaps have a 'troop ship' that can force-dock to a disabled enemy, or a hack that can allow a teleporter based attack?

[GCU Grey Area]

The Gates would have been made bigger if Egosoft had planned on this, or the building box or PHQ dimensions smaller. Then the player would know the "limit" for the PHQ to move. Besides, supposing that the PHQ can fit inside a Gate (having more logical dimentions) it can be "stripped" from any "extra modules" and have them rebuilt in the new position.

Can you imagine the implications of such a thing? The player will need a regular "convoy", of course with escorts, to transfer everything to the new site the guard the place until it's "rebuilt". Wouldn't that add to the game's interest?

Not really. Dismantling & moving all the parts is not really a practical solution. Generally takes me around 3-4 weeks (game time, many months real time) to build an HQ on that scale. Would not want to wait that long every time I moved it before I could even start terraforming the next planet.

It's also composed of rather a lot of stuff: https://www.dropbox.com/s/feclxwuwgnf4d ... 1.jpg?dl=0. Really not keen to have the logistical nightmare of having to move all of that (over 1.5 million hull parts alone) before reassembly & then having to repeat that process half a dozen times more during the course of each game. Dread to think how big the convoy would have to be too.

Right now you can "teleport" the PHQ right on top of that "pesky" Xenon Defense Station and blow it apart and instantly mind you... Where's the fun on that? Have you asked those guys that were rumbling about using the PHQ as a huge "bomb" how many times they have sacrificed their resources to do just that?

Yes, I understand that is possible, but it's not something that's ever appealed to me. As far as I'm concerned complete waste of resources when I could just use a demolition fleet to do the job instead & have a lot more fun in the process. However if other people do enjoy that sort of thing I'm absolutely fine with them having the capability to do so.

[dtpsprt]

The Gates would have been made bigger if Egosoft had planned on this, or the building box or PHQ dimensions smaller. Then the player would know the "limit" for the PHQ to move. Besides, supposing that the PHQ can fit inside a Gate (having more logical dimentions) it can be "stripped" from any "extra modules" and have them rebuilt in the new position.

Can you imagine the implications of such a thing? The player will need a regular "convoy", of course with escorts, to transfer everything to the new site the guard the place until it's "rebuilt". Wouldn't that add to the game's interest?

Not really. Dismantling & moving all the parts is not really a practical solution. Generally takes me around 3-4 weeks (game time, many months real time) to build an HQ on that scale. Would not want to wait that long every time I moved it before I could even start terraforming the next planet.

It's also composed of rather a lot of stuff: https://www.dropbox.com/s/feclxwuwgnf4d ... 1.jpg?dl=0. Really not keen to have the logistical nightmare of having to move all of that (over 1.5 million hull parts alone) before reassembly & then having to repeat that process half a dozen times more during the course of each game. Dread to think how big the convoy would have to be too.

Right now you can "teleport" the PHQ right on top of that "pesky" Xenon Defense Station and blow it apart and instantly mind you... Where's the fun on that? Have you asked those guys that were rumbling about using the PHQ as a huge "bomb" how many times they have sacrificed their resources to do just that?

Yes, I understand that is possible, but it's not something that's ever appealed to me. As far as I'm concerned complete waste of resources when I could just use a demolition fleet to do the job instead & have a lot more fun in the process. However if other people do enjoy that sort of thing I'm absolutely fine with them having the capability to do so.

If I remember correctly, and I know I do, when moving a station was the only option (X3/AP) and the player had two HQ's, a certain Teladi would appear and offer to transfer stations offering super compression technology (that fits with the lore that the Commonwealth had invented and was using, just remember the playership in XBTF) just asking for a "Builder" and all the parked ships to unpark and follow (makes sense too, since they posessed the compression technology themselves so "compressing" the "compressed" would just destroy the ship).

[Smart_Bomb]

Sounds like our ideas share some kinship in the expansion I see bringing more to the game.

[Toshis8]

What, my freighter is under attack by Xenon K? No worries, i will teleport and handle the situation myself. Step away from console, i am taking over ship controls! What, engines are broken? See ya! *teleportation sounds*

[jlehtone]

Only gripe I have with teleporting is that the research for moving my HQ is inextricably linked to personal teleportation. Need to research how to move my HQ because I very much enjoy terraforming. However researching personal teleportation is simply a waste of my time & resources, at least the last 3 stages of it.

Agreed, although that is how research is expected to evolve: you invent something, test it on fly, and then scale up the implementation incrementally until you can teleport Boso Ta (and the structure she is in).

There are four functions:

• Research Lab. Its location is mere matter of convenience. If you don't want to fight hordes of Teladi, then invent bad profitsss elsewhere
• A Room with a View (although it doesn't have one now?). If you could see from it, then you would want it where there is something to see
• Terraformer: storage and S/M fabricator. This has to be where the planet is
• Factory production

Only the terraformer must be somewhere, preferably in multiple locations.
Since it is currently bound to the mythic "PHQ", we have to drag the PHQ around.
(Granted, Terraformer without Factory would still require noticeable logistics.)

If I remember correctly, and I know I do, when moving a station was the only option (X3/AP) and the player had two HQ's, a certain Teladi would appear and offer to transfer stations offering super compression technology (that fits with the lore that the Commonwealth had invented and was using, just remember the playership in XBTF) just asking for a "Builder" and all the parked ships to unpark and follow (makes sense too, since they posessed the compression technology themselves so "compressing" the "compressed" would just destroy the ship).

That was a one-time compensation event. An update to that game made something (a player sector?) available and "old" players were offered the possibility to re-think where they did want their PHQ to be. Furthermore, it was only for the PHQ -- the "Corporate HQ" was a mere Equipment Dock.

IIRC, you were not able to tow a Station from one sector to other. I bet that towing ships through Gates was not very common either.

In X4 a tow of Station would lead to the Bureau of Build Permits to contact you. "You have paid for (cheap) plot, but your structure is not on it! Worse, it is on no-build-zone in middle of traffic lane! Exterminate! Exterminate!"


Disassembly and reassembly is the X4 technology implementation of a "move". Or would be, if the logistics for it would exists.
There is no "Select group of ships and click Migrate PHQ" option. Even with such one-click-solution CGU would grow old and grey.

Furthermore, we have to relocate the Research Lab for terraforming. (Why?). There is no "shrink to blueprint" for the Lab.
The Erlking has now "There can be at most one!" blueprint. Why not extend that idea to the Lab too?

[sirprosik]

The Unfocused JD was great though miss the goodies and fun going to a sector unreachable by any gate.
Jumping a fleet into one and mining/destroying xenon. Searching for crates was 'fun' for a while.

[Socratatus]

What, my freighter is under attack by Xenon K? No worries, i will teleport and handle the situation myself. Step away from console, i am taking over ship controls! What, engines are broken? See ya! *teleportation sounds*

Yea, examples like this are why teleportation is terrible in this game. You (just YOU by the way in the entire universe) are basically omnipotent.

I don't use it, but it really shouldn't be a thing.

[Toshis8]

What, my freighter is under attack by Xenon K? No worries, i will teleport and handle the situation myself. Step away from console, i am taking over ship controls! What, engines are broken? See ya! *teleportation sounds*

Yea, examples like this are why teleportation is terrible in this game. You (just YOU by the way in the entire universe) are basically omnipotent.

I don't use it, but it really shouldn't be a thing.

It isnt terrible. Maybe there could be some extra price for using it, but i like its convenience.

[Riccardoman]

I'm probably the only one who thinks the teleportation, travel mode and highways belong to a different game (XR for example was great with the highway because of how city-like the universe was constructed)
I still think warp drive and "fast forward" within a more concentrated area of space was very good in terms of pacing and AI behaviour

[Axeface]

I feel like nobody in this thread is discussing the OP, rather tangents about jumpdrives and other things.
Rather than try to reply to some of the discussion I'll just continue with my ideas and let them stand on their own.

So some further speculation about the idea.
How would remote interaction work? You might wonder about how remote interaction would work if we arnt able to catapult our body across the galaxy. Well, one of the few reasons for spacelegs in X4 is to talk to npcs. This can be easily solved by allowing us to comm stations and talk to most relevant npcs remotely, which is a feature that I think should be in the game anyway. Of course non-relevant npcs on stations might not be comm-able remotely, and these npcs would provide some incentive to still visit stations sometimes (ontop of buying inventory items).

Because the player ended up in full control over a Terran research station that was researching teleportation like technology, along with one of the smartest scientists currently alive in the universe. The technology was likely optimised specifically to teleport the player, likely with very expensive hardware the player's character is having to carry around, what the player paid for when researching the technology.

I'm obviously aware of the story reason why we have it, but as time goes on it just begins to make little sense given the absolute lack of any more lore or mention of it, and as we move forward with more games it will only become more and more weird. My proposal is simply an attempt to come up with an alternative that gives us a very similar feature set for the future, while adding gameplay depth and lore/worldbuilding.

[jlehtone]

How would remote interaction work?

We had already in X2 the opportunity to remote control other vessels ...

[dtpsprt]

.................

So some further speculation about the idea.
How would remote interaction work? You might wonder about how remote interaction would work if we arnt able to catapult our body across the galaxy. Well, one of the few reasons for spacelegs in X4 is to talk to npcs. This can be easily solved by allowing us to comm stations and talk to most relevant npcs remotely, which is a feature that I think should be in the game anyway. Of course non-relevant npcs on stations might not be comm-able remotely, and these npcs would provide some incentive to still visit stations sometimes (ontop of buying inventory items).

Because the player ended up in full control over a Terran research station that was researching teleportation like technology, along with one of the smartest scientists currently alive in the universe. The technology was likely optimised specifically to teleport the player, likely with very expensive hardware the player's character is having to carry around, what the player paid for when researching the technology.

I'm obviously aware of the story reason why we have it, but as time goes on it just begins to make little sense given the absolute lack of any more lore or mention of it, and as we move forward with more games it will only become more and more weird. My proposal is simply an attempt to come up with an alternative that gives us a very similar feature set for the future, while adding gameplay depth and lore/worldbuilding.

I remember in "the should never be mentioned again" Egosoft game that, after a lot of walking around stations trying to find someone who had the items we wanted and always playing the s****d minigame of the interaction, people were so p****d that Egosoft added the option to "call remotely" the traders you wanted to interact with once you were in the system. The fact that this made that game bearable (somewhat) did not register with Egosoft it seems by your proposal. Proof on the matter that they kept station walking even though they know very well that unless they assign a whole team of graphic designers (big one at that) the stations will always look "copy-paste", not to mention the m*****c pace of walking around...

[jlehtone]

But theres one problem as far as I see it. The feature itself raises a pretty serious issue in terms of lore and world building. It is a good mechanic for gameplay yet problematic for lore. Why does the player have this, and the player alone? Why dont our employees go on strike (to put it mildly) when they see a live stream of the player getting 'wooshed' off an exploding ship, while their best friend Bob and his 200 crewmates get vaporised?

I don't care about the lore. Furthermore, when my Rattlesnake was about to explode, I did first tell every crewmember to go elsewhere. Then I ran to my Pegasos and did undock in the nick of time. Besides, my crew are proper Split -- enslaved or rather die than run.


Disclaimer: I have not seen the X Rebirth. I know it has something, but genuinely don't know what.


We have "chairs" now. (I neither asked for them nor use them.) We could have one more chair: VR Station. When you sit/stand/use VR Station, you get to choose a ship to link to. From then on you do fly that (remote) ship until you disconnect. Should be no different from teleporting, as far as graphics rendering is concerned.

The VR Stations could be on ships and stations, even NPC ones. (For a fee use station to remotely control one of your ships while you don't own VR Station of your own.)

The connection could require a remote control unit, RCU (cameras and stuff) on the controlled ship. Something that can be disabled too.
Better yet, hacked (by NPC and player). The hacker would get control for a brief moment, until the crew disables the RCU. RCU would be a ship upgrade, like scanners, etc. A robotic spacesuit/drone would have RCU too, so EVA would not require you in person.

The range of the VR Station should have "levels", just like the current teleport has levels. Perhaps tied to money or research.
One could possibly have amplifier beacons to relay signal longer. NPC would offer missions to deploy/destroy beacons for their war effort.
Some hazards and ECM would block signal, so exploration there would require "a real pilot". You would know that "Connection Lost" well within range would mean something special.

There is also consideration of the thing that we do not have in this game, nor in most scifi: the lag. Transfer of anything -- even mere data -- over long distances does take time. Do you want to experience "realistic lag", when controlling a remote ship on the other side of Galaxy?

Since you would not be "there" physically, you could not do the things that require jumping up from pilot's seat.

Now, sneak into ship. Use VR Station in it. Remotely fly your ship to board the ship that you are in. Get shot -- either by the ship's crew or by your marines; neither side needs "passengers".


Such remote control would not be all what the teleport is in X4, but would it be more "plausible"?

[sirprosik]

All well and good but I admit I use teleport. Why?
That loot collector at my xenon defense station needs me to grab my fat loot or it gets destroyed by stupid AI action by trying to play chicken
with an I while its in a discovery as a worst case example.
SCA and VIG is another example for pro-teleport in the current game.
You don't use it well congrats! Limit yourself all you want

Until the AI in the players favor is much better than it is what a lot of you are complaining about will need to stay status quo.
I personally wish this game was less map oriented and had more 1st person focus but we all have to be realistic about our expectations.
The more 'we' try to move the focus from a 'fun' game to a tedious one there will also be less buyers.

The jump drive you all claim to 'hate' had drawbacks for both 'xenon', NPC's and the player.
E-cell usage had a massive cost depending on the size of the ship jumping not just the distance cost!!
And since 'xenon' in X4 cheat like mofo's crossing many kilometers in less than a second all it is doing is hurting player movement.
I have seen xenon 'jump' from one side of a sector to another while I try to run one down K's and I's frequently bypass my ships defending the gate
in The Void ending up in Argon Prime frequently and I am talking about current beta not 5.1.

[dtpsprt]

..............................

I don't care about the lore. Furthermore, when my Rattlesnake was about to explode, I did first tell every crewmember to go elsewhere. Then I ran to my Pegasos and did undock in the nick of time. Besides, my crew are proper Split -- enslaved or rather die than run.


Disclaimer: I have not seen the X Rebirth. I know it has something, but genuinely don't know what.


We have "chairs" now. (I neither asked for them nor use them.) We could have one more chair: VR Station. When you sit/stand/use VR Station, you get to choose a ship to link to. From then on you do fly that (remote) ship until you disconnect. Should be no different from teleporting, as far as graphics rendering is concerned.

The VR Stations could be on ships and stations, even NPC ones. (For a fee use station to remotely control one of your ships while you don't own VR Station of your own.)

The connection could require a remote control unit, RCU (cameras and stuff) on the controlled ship. Something that can be disabled too.
Better yet, hacked (by NPC and player). The hacker would get control for a brief moment, until the crew disables the RCU. RCU would be a ship upgrade, like scanners, etc. A robotic spacesuit/drone would have RCU too, so EVA would not require you in person.

The range of the VR Station should have "levels", just like the current teleport has levels. Perhaps tied to money or research.
One could possibly have amplifier beacons to relay signal longer. NPC would offer missions to deploy/destroy beacons for their war effort.
Some hazards and ECM would block signal, so exploration there would require "a real pilot". You would know that "Connection Lost" well within range would mean something special.

There is also consideration of the thing that we do not have in this game, nor in most scifi: the lag. Transfer of anything -- even mere data -- over long distances does take time. Do you want to experience "realistic lag", when controlling a remote ship on the other side of Galaxy?

Since you would not be "there" physically, you could not do the things that require jumping up from pilot's seat.

Now, sneak into ship. Use VR Station in it. Remotely fly your ship to board the ship that you are in. Get shot -- either by the ship's crew or by your marines; neither side needs "passengers".


Such remote control would not be all what the teleport is in X4, but would it be more "plausible"?

I'm really with you in this one as Egosoft is hell bent on not bringing Jump drive back for whomever would want to use it. As for the lag part, one can suppose that after that many hundreds of years from today and with the lag getting more and more in the way as people of any race leave their parent solar system, the question of quantum entanglement is answered, so yes, instant communications Universe wide (can't say for sure Multiverse wide). No lag

P.S. The question of quantum entanglement is how many quantum pairs can one put together to work in tandem to have a fair or good transmission rate. After all one quantum pair is 1 Bit, if you can have 1,024,000 of them you have 1 MegaBit and so on... (1 Byte, depending on the architecture can have 8, 16, 32 or 64 Bits to "reach" today's computer standards).