Why are M ships so useless?

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abc0000
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Why are M ships so useless?

Post by abc0000 » Tue, 31. Jan 23, 12:51

When fighting in a sector, the M ship cannot win against 3-4 fighters, despite the fact that they are equivalent in price. what is the point of buying M ships if fighters are more efficient?

In what role are they more effective?

I found only 1 way to use, and only for corvettes, this is the creation of anti-haak patrol groups, but there is also a question, buy 3-4 corvettes or 1 destroyer, again the price is about the same ...

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Re: Why are M ships so useless?

Post by Alan Phipps » Tue, 31. Jan 23, 13:11

It has been discussed before in such as these examples here and here.

Generally speaking from my own experience, the right ones can act as great and versatile player personal ships for all sorts of missions, plots, capturing, boarding, etc and some can carry S ships along for ready use as needed.
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mr.WHO
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Re: Why are M ships so useless?

Post by mr.WHO » Tue, 31. Jan 23, 13:39

I think the main problem with M-size ships is that AI can't use them well (use the same logic as fighters/ S-size class) and they are vulnerable to both S-size groups and random L-size destroyer.

They are great as player ships coz player know how to use them, but in AI hands, they sux badly.

blackphoenixx
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Re: Why are M ships so useless?

Post by blackphoenixx » Tue, 31. Jan 23, 13:51

abc0000 wrote:
Tue, 31. Jan 23, 12:51
When fighting in a sector, the M ship cannot win against 3-4 fighters, despite the fact that they are equivalent in price. what is the point of buying M ships if fighters are more efficient?

In what role are they more effective?

I found only 1 way to use, and only for corvettes, this is the creation of anti-haak patrol groups, but there is also a question, buy 3-4 corvettes or 1 destroyer, again the price is about the same ...
Which M ship and what weapon loadout? Because there's huge differences between them.
For fleet combat you don't want to use them instead of S ships but alongside them to avoid them being focus fired, but as long as you do that their much higher firepower is generally worth it.
As for why you'd buy 3-4 corvettes over a destroyer? Speed and accuracy. The faster your patrol ships are the faster they get into combat, and the less you need to effectively patrol a given territory.
And destroyers generally have trouble hitting or even catching enemy fighters, so using them to patrol for khaak is inefficient at best.

Personally i use Katanas with proton barrage as a rapid response force to deal with pirates harassing my traders and Nemesis with beams as patrols vs Khaak, and they do fine in those roles.
Nemesis with beams also work well as interceptors for carriers as long as they have some fighter support (a Nemesis with 5 beams kills most S ships in one pass, so adding 2-3 of them to your interceptor group increases killing speed quite a bit).

Frigates are generally only worth it if you make use of their large missile capacity or defence drones (which take ages to launch so this is very situational). Or as marine transports for boarding.

abc0000
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Re: Why are M ships so useless?

Post by abc0000 » Tue, 31. Jan 23, 13:54

Alan Phipps wrote:
Tue, 31. Jan 23, 13:11
It has been discussed before in such as these examples here and here.

Generally speaking from my own experience, the right ones can act as great and versatile player personal ships for all sorts of missions, plots, capturing, boarding, etc and some can carry S ships along for ready use as needed.
that means M ships were made only for use by the player. if you look at their effectiveness in the hands of AI.
I don’t understand what other role the developers wanted to give them

Another thing that is useless in the game is missiles, There is a problem on the problem, only a player can use them normally XD

Heavy Torpedo Problems and The problem of firing many types of missiles by 1 ship.
Unguided missiles in turrets do not lead the target

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Re: Why are M ships so useless?

Post by GCU Grey Area » Tue, 31. Jan 23, 14:13

Been getting quite good results with missile-armed Ospreys used as Interceptors, working alongside S fighters (Buzzards, also on Intercept) in a mixed fleet context. Essentially those Ospreys would spam the battlefield with a continuous barrage of light smart missiles. Test scenario was a battle against a substantial swarm of VIG fighters (estimate 200+) during the ToA plot. Fleet took noticeably fewer casualties with those Ospreys in action than without.

abc0000
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Re: Why are M ships so useless?

Post by abc0000 » Tue, 31. Jan 23, 14:21

blackphoenixx wrote:
Tue, 31. Jan 23, 13:51
abc0000 wrote:
Tue, 31. Jan 23, 12:51
When fighting in a sector, the M ship cannot win against 3-4 fighters, despite the fact that they are equivalent in price. what is the point of buying M ships if fighters are more efficient?

In what role are they more effective?

I found only 1 way to use, and only for corvettes, this is the creation of anti-haak patrol groups, but there is also a question, buy 3-4 corvettes or 1 destroyer, again the price is about the same ...
Which M ship and what weapon loadout? Because there's huge differences between them.
For fleet combat you don't want to use them instead of S ships but alongside them to avoid them being focus fired, but as long as you do that their much higher firepower is generally worth it.
As for why you'd buy 3-4 corvettes over a destroyer? Speed and accuracy. The faster your patrol ships are the faster they get into combat, and the less you need to effectively patrol a given territory.
And destroyers generally have trouble hitting or even catching enemy fighters, so using them to patrol for khaak is inefficient at best.

Personally i use Katanas with proton barrage as a rapid response force to deal with pirates harassing my traders and Nemesis with beams as patrols vs Khaak, and they do fine in those roles.
Nemesis with beams also work well as interceptors for carriers as long as they have some fighter support (a Nemesis with 5 beams kills most S ships in one pass, so adding 2-3 of them to your interceptor group increases killing speed quite a bit).

Frigates are generally only worth it if you make use of their large missile capacity or defence drones (which take ages to launch so this is very situational). Or as marine transports for boarding.

In theory, corvettes quickly shoot down fighters. in practice, if the ratio is 1 to 2.5+, then the corvettes have no chance, in the first seconds of the battle they shoot down 1 fighter at a time (if each one attacks a separate target), then they start spinning while receiving damage and lose to fighters, since their total damage is higher, and when corvette attacks one target another fighter shoots him in the back.

for the price of a nemesis it costs like 2 fighters
katana as 3 terran fighters or 5-6 fighters from other factions
Dragon like 2.5 fighter

Corvettes are great for fighting against small groups (patrol against pirates / khaaks) in other situations it makes sense to use only nemesis if you play as paranid (only technology 1 fraction

The rest of the M ships are not effective for their price

abc0000
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Re: Why are M ships so useless?

Post by abc0000 » Tue, 31. Jan 23, 14:36

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Tue, 31. Jan 23, 14:13
Been getting quite good results with missile-armed Ospreys used as Interceptors, working alongside S fighters (Buzzards, also on Intercept) in a mixed fleet context. Essentially those Ospreys would spam the battlefield with a continuous barrage of light smart missiles. Test scenario was a battle against a substantial swarm of VIG fighters (estimate 200+) during the ToA plot. Fleet took noticeably fewer casualties with those Ospreys in action than without.
Frigates are good with missiles. especially if everyone is attacking their own target. but there are problems if a group of frigates attack one fighter at the same time, they spend a lot of missiles =)

I used the Cobra as a missile anti-fighter frigate.

But, if AI knew how to correctly use missiles, at least not attacking 1 fighter with all the missiles that it has, then a missile anti-fighter destroyer would be better.

imagine any destroyer that has several missile turrets, where each turret fires at a separate fighter (about 10-12 light missiles are guaranteed to destroy any fighter)

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mr.WHO
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Re: Why are M ships so useless?

Post by mr.WHO » Tue, 31. Jan 23, 14:40

Missiles are another can of worms, so if you combine them with M-size ships, the results are frustrating as well.


The only other application of M-size ships, especially corvettes, would be oversight/manual/heavyMicro first strike group as they do have high dammage from the first alpha strike.

However, I hate micromanagement, so it still much more sane and practical, to just use fighter group for the same purpose and less pain with replacement of losses.

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Re: Why are M ships so useless?

Post by blackphoenixx » Tue, 31. Jan 23, 14:50

abc0000 wrote:
Tue, 31. Jan 23, 14:21
In theory, corvettes quickly shoot down fighters. in practice, if the ratio is 1 to 2.5+, then the corvettes have no chance, in the first seconds of the battle they shoot down 1 fighter at a time (if each one attacks a separate target), then they start spinning while receiving damage and lose to fighters, since their total damage is higher, and when corvette attacks one target another fighter shoots him in the back.

for the price of a nemesis it costs like 2 fighters
katana as 3 terran fighters or 5-6 fighters from other factions
Dragon like 2.5 fighter

Corvettes are great for fighting against small groups (patrol against pirates / khaaks) in other situations it makes sense to use only nemesis if you play as paranid (only technology 1 fraction

The rest of the M ships are not effective for their price
Which is why you don't use them alone, as i said. M ships need fighter support to work well.
They're DPS, not tanks.

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Re: Why are M ships so useless?

Post by magitsu » Tue, 31. Jan 23, 14:55

Yeah, it's a bit of a shame that only a few of them feel worth the trouble:
Jian for 6x extra flak docked on L/XL, Teladi M to store drones and Kuraokami for small universal trading. Katana would be ok to use yourself, but after playing X3 etc. too much with Springblossom it doesn't feel very fresh.

I guess they create some amount of plausibility by being average or worse. So the good options can shine a bit more.

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KextV8
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Re: Why are M ships so useless?

Post by KextV8 » Tue, 31. Jan 23, 15:47

M Ship = Player ship, mostly.

The only other time I use M ships is the Kuraokami. Because they can ferry any kind of cargo at all thanks to their unique cargo bays, I tend to use groups of them as small rapid transports assigned to trade for a station. Really not much can catch them.

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Re: Why are M ships so useless?

Post by Wargear » Tue, 31. Jan 23, 17:24

Kuriokami with 4 mk2 Split neutron gatling guns and a proton gun or missles and I've never felt I was at a disadvantage as well as 2 flak turrets set to attack all enemies.... Dragon is just as effective..
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Re: Why are M ships so useless?

Post by Smart_Bomb » Tue, 31. Jan 23, 17:38

You haven't seen them in action as missile boats and the corvettes can carry a very small amount fighters, download the mod that allows you to dock and protect command.

Your fighters will swarm the enemy while the corvettes provide backup and soak damage, you can mix in other M missile boats or equip the corvettes themself with missile or flak, they can take out swarms of fighters.

Just remember to set a couple of fast small couriers to 100% resupply the fleet with more missiles and there's no stopping your swarm.
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Re: Why are M ships so useless?

Post by jlehtone » Tue, 31. Jan 23, 18:34

abc0000 wrote:
Tue, 31. Jan 23, 12:51
When fighting in a sector, the M ship cannot win against 3-4 fighters, despite the fact that they are equivalent in price.

3-4 corvettes or 1 destroyer, again the price is about the same ...
Lets see: 12 fighters or 3 Katana or one Osaka. I'm sure I've seen all three cases.
The Osaka was a oneshot. The fighters died quickly, but the Katanas kept harassing me a long time.
Granted, I was in Asgard ... :roll:

Does that mean that Katanas are "efficient". No. All NPC ships do die. That is what they do.

Nevertheless, those Katanas, swarms the Xenon P, and that Peregrine, which torpedoed the ship I was about to board, all are useful distractions from the boring optimal efficiency.


Someone said that if you have to count your credits, then you cannot afford the war. :teladi:
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abc0000
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Re: Why are M ships so useless?

Post by abc0000 » Tue, 31. Jan 23, 19:27

jlehtone wrote:
Tue, 31. Jan 23, 18:34
abc0000 wrote:
Tue, 31. Jan 23, 12:51
When fighting in a sector, the M ship cannot win against 3-4 fighters, despite the fact that they are equivalent in price.

3-4 corvettes or 1 destroyer, again the price is about the same ...
Lets see: 12 fighters or 3 Katana or one Osaka. I'm sure I've seen all three cases.
The Osaka was a oneshot. The fighters died quickly, but the Katanas kept harassing me a long time.
Granted, I was in Asgard ... :roll:

Does that mean that Katanas are "efficient". No. All NPC ships do die. That is what they do.

Nevertheless, those Katanas, swarms the Xenon P, and that Peregrine, which torpedoed the ship I was about to board, all are useful distractions from the boring optimal efficiency.


Someone said that if you have to count your credits, then you cannot afford the war. :teladi:

Asgard dies very quickly from 8-12 torpedo fighters without a chance.

Chimera with x5 launchers loaded with heavy torpedoes costs about 1m 8 Chimeras with a couple of volleys kill Assgard

Destroyers and battleships only survive thanks to STUPID AI that can't use groups of torpedo bombers to eliminate them

Katana price about 6m

The balance is very strange, Fighters are the most effective units. Destroyers/battleships are only good for bombarding the station, and then only because of saving ammunition (money)

The 2 most powerful units are an aircraft carrier and fighters, and an aircraft carrier is only needed to load torpedo bombers and repair fighters, corvettes can be useful in combined arms combat, but the question of price and effectiveness ... 3 earthly fighters with protons in total have more shield and damage than 1 katana, and the price is the same.

From my point of view, the balance should be like this

S > L\XL > M > S

Fighters > torpedo bombers

torpedo bombers > battleships and destroyers

Battleships > Destroyers

Destroyers > corvettes/frigates

Corvettes > fighters/torpedo bombers

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mr.WHO
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Re: Why are M ships so useless?

Post by mr.WHO » Tue, 31. Jan 23, 21:24

abc0000 wrote:
Tue, 31. Jan 23, 19:27
S > L\XL > M > S

Fighters > torpedo bombers

torpedo bombers > battleships and destroyers

Battleships > Destroyers

Destroyers > corvettes/frigates

Corvettes > fighters/torpedo bombers


It doesn't help that current "gunship" class was originally designated as "bomber" and was rather poor bomber.


I tried to use gunships, frigates and corvettes as fleet escorts and interceptor assignment, but all that dumb AI tend to do, is send them alone against group of S-ships to die away from any other fire support.
If I assign them with "defend" assignment, then the moment their leader capship is engage in capship to capship combat, they engage as well and die miserably to any L-size turrets (especially pulse and gravitrons, but often even stray plasma).

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Re: Why are M ships so useless?

Post by KextV8 » Tue, 31. Jan 23, 21:31

abc0000 wrote:
Tue, 31. Jan 23, 19:27
Destroyers and battleships only survive thanks to STUPID AI that can't use groups of torpedo bombers to eliminate them
It is irrelevant from the player's perspective that torpedos can destroy just about anything, none of the enemies that oppose us will ever do so, like you said. Thus, for player fleets and personal ships, Destroyers and Battleships are both practical and cost effective.

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Re: Why are M ships so useless?

Post by blackphoenixx » Tue, 31. Jan 23, 22:32

mr.WHO wrote:
Tue, 31. Jan 23, 21:24
I tried to use gunships, frigates and corvettes as fleet escorts and interceptor assignment, but all that dumb AI tend to do, is send them alone against group of S-ships to die away from any other fire support.
If I assign them with "defend" assignment, then the moment their leader capship is engage in capship to capship combat, they engage as well and die miserably to any L-size turrets (especially pulse and gravitrons, but often even stray plasma).
If you don't want the AI to send off your corvettes alone assign them to a sub-group with "attack with commander". Or assign a wing of fighters to attack with the corvette as support.
If you don't want your corvettes to attack capitals and get killed by gravitons assign them to intercept instead of attack or defend.

The AI certainly has its flaws, but in this case it's on you for not assigning them correctly for what you wanted. The AI did exactly what you told it to do.

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Re: Why are M ships so useless?

Post by grapedog » Wed, 1. Feb 23, 19:51

I mainly use corvettes for rapid reaction forces to hunt down M pirates, swarms of kha'ak, and small to medium swarms of Xenon. 2 to 4 corvettes will clean up those messes very quickly.

They are extremely useful when mixed in with fighters as a bit of a heavier punch without taking all the focus. I'll usually mix em in like at an 8:1 or 10:1 ratio with fighters.

They also work very well as carrier and aux ship screening forces defending against incoming S/M ships.

They have their uses for sure, but they're weak in some areas and strong in others. As all ships should be...and finding the right use for them is up to each person.

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