A case for an Ultimate Goal and Purpose !!

[Poacher886]

In my opinion this game/Sims potential is wasted through having no ultimate Goal or purpose for you and the AI.

Bare with me...

So i have a love/hate relationship with X games since i started playing them with X3 and ive clocked up 100's of hrs over the years; On one hand they tick all the boxes of what i look for in a game, that being a large convincing and immersive open world , with freedom to roam as you please and essentially do as you like withing the contains of the game.
I don't like games that are linier 'follow the yellow brick road', and /or have "30hrs gameplay" etc, this is born out from the fact i only play Totalwar / Elder Scrolls / Fallout and X games. Indeed with over 1000hrs in a very modded Skyrim i still have only done the first 3 quests of the main storyline!!

Point being, im not after a short 'You win' scenario when i talk about Ultimate Goal / Purpose for X games.

The problem i encounter when starting an X game is i very quickly (to quickly) start to amass a few ships and find myself without any real purpose or reason to do anything. The main story is too linear and doesn't really work in a free roaming open world environment any more than it does in Skyrim. But unlike Skyrim, X games don't have the depth / intricacy , dialogue, lore and general feel of a living world for which to immerse ones self, coupled with the ability in X to amass fleets that quickly render 'side quests' a formality and pointless, not to mention the game is largely played at a map level when you grow further distancing yourself from any feeling or immersion in a living breathing world.

To those that will now say "well make your own story up", or "Try attacking x-y-z faction" i say this is folly, the AI does not know (or care) about what im doing, thus provides no opposition or challenge to it. Because the AI also has no objective other than to grow its self...and do nothing with it. To fill this void of purpose the Dev's have 'inserted' Khaak, which randomly and without purpose or reason appear annoyingly to present opposition to what you are doing. There is no rationale to these appearance's and i can't tell you how immersion breaking it is to 'explore' the far reaches of a sector to just find 'yawn' endless waves of 'spawned' "what are they doing here" Khaak to defeat.

I realise X games are not, or intended to be a Starfield type experience, though a more intimate, dialogue filled RPG element would transform the world space, and the feeling of a living world with genuine factions immensely,
What Egosoft have have built here, is a unique amongst games; First / Third person RPG / Fleet RTS game that has the potential to be amazing while not really realising it, it has a little of all and not much of anything thus seems to have an identity problem.

Here is my (brief) suggestion as to why i think an Ultimate Goal and purpose for both you and the AI factions would utterly transform the X experience for the better, and make for a far more engaging, challenging and repayable game without losing its pace and longevity.

If we were to set the game world much as is ,with factions that tentatively are at peace but as in the real world seek to dominate. All races (that includes the Khaak aswell) are single 'real' factions that much like any Totalwar game CAN be killed off and do not 'Spawn', also NEW factions can immerge and grow, and will adopt a name and any of the given races thus keeping the mix of races alive for the most part. The difference here is they all, along with you, have an ultimate goal and purpose to work for, thus will actually compete to essentially 'Win' the game.

The goal needs to be immense enough so this is no short affair, and indeed could be adjustable, here is an example " Fully control 15% of all sectors, All controlled sectors must be adjoined"

With this in mind we now have a game in which both you and the AI have purpose, a reason to gain money, build fleets and take sectors, where wars are dynamic between factions and the ebb and flow of the game and its sectors is constantly changing, add to this intimate diplomacy between factions who will both ally and gang up on those that are ahead while also making peace treaty's with enemy's when weakened. Each faction could have a Main capital ship or station, where actually escorted missions to meet the head of faction to discuss diplomacy could occur. Strategy can now take place at a map level, so if for instance a faction has 10 sectors adjoined, a fleet mission to break the link could achieved, making for a hotly contested sector.

You get the idea. Games will now play out differently each time.Much more content of actual worth could be added. And ultimately Egosoft would have a truly unique ,engrossing experience with point and purpose to get you teeth stuck into while preserving that endless 100's of hours gameplay we all love.

[jlehtone]

The problem i encounter when starting an X game is i very quickly (to quickly) start to amass a few ships and find myself without any real purpose or reason to do anything.

IMHO,

Can't see the forest for the trees

In my view there is no "Win" and that is ok. There is "Lose", if you quit. You quit when you no longer find goal, purpose, reason, or task to do in the game.

Therefore, the challenge in the "sandbox" is to be able to find new goals, purposes, and reasons. When you are not able to do that, you fail. If the game spoon-feeds you "a Goal", then you don't have the challenge to invent on your own. There are other games for that playstyle.


In other words: the Ultimate Goal exists and is the ability to be creative even after "all is seen and done". It can be a very hard goal to pursue.

[chew-ie]

I appreciate the X series aren't "gamey"* and instead offer a huge sandbox. Right now the universe simulation (=faction AI) is geared towards "running" - to provide a balance. The player can use diplomatic missions to tip that balance and give the factions a new goal (can involve: destroy the other sub faction) - which is a mid- to lategame decision. (it is also final)

We could - by using modding - toy around with various different universe goals. But IMHO we should leave the current universe simulation as it is. Egosoft has to cater a lot of needs - there are even folks out there who don't want any more drastic changes in the universe ("Xenon too aggressive") as some prefer to just trade and not bother with war and the like.

---

*might change as soon as they introduce "season gameplay" to appeal to the multiplayer crowd

[Nanook]

In my opinion this game/Sims potential is wasted through having no ultimate Goal or purpose for you and the AI....

The X-Universe games are designed to be muilt-dimensional. By giving it some fixed final goal, it becomes a one-dimensional game, not what most players here really want, I'd guess, or they'd have left a long time ago. As said above, it allows for a practically infinite number of player-created goals.

[Alan Phipps]

I don't have any issue with long-term goals or achievements just as long as they don't constrain player playstyle while in progress or when accomplished.

I'll give a probably poor example: - A player just wants his well-established trading empire to 'live long and prosper' in relative serenity but, due to an underlying end-game imperative, factions keep grabbing sectors by combat and constantly disrupt the trade routes to the player's established trade partners. Even worse (although highly unlikely), some faction somehow achieves the stated end goal and the game effectively ends because the remaining factions don't know what to do next and so become apathetic.

I can hear one dreaded (by CBJ) response even now - "make the end goal scenario optional".

[chew-ie]

"make the end goal scenario optional".

Well.. if that were an option - I'd take it

[jmrc]

This is a sandbox game and changing it for an "end goal" (even if optional) would be a mistake.

In games with ultimate goal, there's no purpose after achieving it, while in a sandbox, the purpose and goals are defined by each player or he can simply go with the flow.

Any "goals" should be implemented in the game Achievements (as they are now) which are completely optional and some require a lot of focus to get.

Instead of purposes/goals we should have far more plots (of the type and length seen in CoH and ToA) in mid and late stages of the game, which would allow to shape the universe in different ways and providing different experiences and increasing replayability.

[grapedog]

This is a sandbox game and changing it for an "end goal" (even if optional) would be a mistake.

In games with ultimate goal, there's no purpose after achieving it, while in a sandbox, the purpose and goals are defined by each player or he can simply go with the flow.

Any "goals" should be implemented in the game Achievements (as they are now) which are completely optional and some require a lot of focus to get.

Instead of purposes/goals we should have far more plots (of the type and length seen in CoH and ToA) in mid and late stages of the game, which would allow to shape the universe in different ways and providing different experiences and increasing replayability.

This is what I would prefer as well, more plots that I can choose to engage in, or not, depending on how I want the universe to turn out in that playthrough.

[rudi_pioneer]

Personally I’d put effort in making more sandbox options (diplomacy? Other sector takeover? Influence armies?) which would benefit both “ larger goal “ and everyone else.

[ZeroAffex]

This is a sandbox game and changing it for an "end goal" (even if optional) would be a mistake.

In games with ultimate goal, there's no purpose after achieving it, while in a sandbox, the purpose and goals are defined by each player or he can simply go with the flow.

Any "goals" should be implemented in the game Achievements (as they are now) which are completely optional and some require a lot of focus to get.

Instead of purposes/goals we should have far more plots (of the type and length seen in CoH and ToA) in mid and late stages of the game, which would allow to shape the universe in different ways and providing different experiences and increasing replayability.

Well said! I also think more optional story paths/branching plots would be great as well as other things like factions improving or inventing new technologies over time, designing new ships and just having diplomacy options like trade agreements, defense pacts, forming alliances, ect. I'd also really love to have a bunch of random gen sectors where anything goes and gives us a true exploration playstyle not having the slightest idea what we can find. Oh yeah and some new aliens.. Good or evil, I don't care. I just want some spooky ass aliens to interact with lol. Highways too, would love to be able to create my own trade routes/highways in my favorite sectors that lack them.

But yeah, biggest reason I love X games is that there is no end-goal or limitation aside from my own imagination. In fact, I have a hard time enjoying games now with set limits, goals and endings, being railroaded. I've been spoiled with the freedom X games give me and would definitely be opposed to seeing that go away.. X games don't end, they go on forever! ha The universe goes on forever. The only ending is us, when we decide to do something else or decide we're done after we achieved all we set to achieve. With all the different playstyles and random generation, I still have so many possibilities to explore that I'm sure I'll get thousands more hours of gameplay and it's largely due to the open nature of this game that gives me that. Absolutely love it.

[Ormac]

So i have a love/hate relationship with X games since i started playing them with X3 and ive clocked up 100's of hrs over the years; On one hand they tick all the boxes of what i look for in a game, that being a large convincing and immersive open world , with freedom to roam as you please and essentially do as you like withing the contains of the game.
I don't like games that are linier 'follow the yellow brick road', and /or have "30hrs gameplay" etc, this is born out from the fact i only play Totalwar / Elder Scrolls / Fallout and X games. Indeed with over 1000hrs in a very modded Skyrim i still have only done the first 3 quests of the main storyline!!


The problem i encounter when starting an X game is i very quickly (to quickly) start to amass a few ships and find myself without any real purpose or reason to do anything. The main story is too linear and doesn't really work in a free roaming open world environment any more than it does in Skyrim. But unlike Skyrim, X games don't have the depth / intricacy , dialogue, lore and general feel of a living world for which to immerse ones self, coupled with the ability in X to amass fleets that quickly render 'side quests' a formality and pointless, not to mention the game is largely played at a map level when you grow further distancing yourself from any feeling or immersion in a living breathing world.

X always had it's lore (sector/station/ship/item descriptions) and it looks like that lore for X4 is returning with more of the encyclopedia entries getting descriptions. X3 had a universe teaming with life with sectors full of ships and civilian vessels.

X4 has tried with the DLC to reference the existing lore like with the Split but It is a whole lot of exposition that is only heard the once and cannot be easily recalled. It was only when I check the real world copy of the X-Encylopedia did I realise Egosoft just told us the origins of the Split Empire.

I'd like to see mission delivery with a bit more variety then just having the Plot Character just stop you for a lengthy conversation when its appropriate.

[Tharrg]

One idea for an ultimate goal is to create a Litcube-style situation where the Xenon take over the universe unless the player makes the difference.

We could have a plot which triggers this, causing the Xenon to go on the rampage. Have the plot give the player some powerful goodies to help fight the Xenon, maybe something like the X3 HUB. The player can put this plot off until they are ready for the ultimate challenge!

[Maebius]

An ultimate crisis mode would be most welcomed. It could also be repeatable and obviously optional, like you must have started a specific war mission.

At semi-random intervals, khaak*/xenon/pirate or maybe a hostile to the player faction, should spawn a fleet and wreck havoc on a few systems.

Obviously, the fleet would spawn out of thin air due to "plot reasons" and the size of it should depend on the player's power as well.

*khaak are a major disappointment in X4, hope there are some plans for them with the Boron DLC

[Y-llian]

What I tend to do is set constraints and goals. I usually decide early on what type of “faction” I’m going to be in the game. Here are two I’ve played in the past…

Mothers Aeternal. This was a matriarchal Terran faction who were pissed at what happened with the destruction on of Tores. Not happy with the Earth government, definitely not with the Argon or their immediate allies (ANT). They only used Terran ships and weapons… Their goal, liberate Earth/Moon space from the fools who permitted countless citizens to die needlessly. Destroy the Argon’s military infrastructure but permit civilian trade to a point. All cap ship captains and managers had to be female. Happy was the day when Earth fell. The Mother’s setup their infrastructure in Argon Prime, nothing will threaten Earth again…

The Gardeners. This was a xenophobic faction that saw it as their sacred duty to “prune” the galaxy like a sort of tree. Factions were permitted two sectors at most or they’ll be “pruned” back. The only species they sort of tolerated was the Teladi, more out of necessity than anything. They used Teladi ships /weapons for the most part. I’d have preferred to have a separate species for this faction (maybe plants) but I used Teladi to crew ships and stations. Being at war with the whole galaxy certainly made things interesting, I was also surprised with how well the simulation handled it all. Those pesky factions just wouldn’t stayed pruned!

Now, I’m not saying you should do this, it’s merely a suggestion offered in the spirit of kindness. I find, giving my faction a motivation and psychology, really helps to sharpen gameplay when you consider if they would/wouldn’t do a particular action. What their end goals are, etc.

Like I said, merely some fodder to ponder.

Best
Y.

[mr.WHO]

Personally I'd add some triggerable end game crisis, like huge Xenon outbreak - similar to Stellaris crysis.


Currently there is some "late game content" in X4 but it's 50/50 hit & miss.

I like the plots that make an impact on galaxy (Like Paranid plots, Split plots and that Terran spy plot against Antigone).

At the same time Terraforming seems to be boring, tedious and their impact on galaxy is mostly dissapointing

[jlehtone]

I'm not fond of plots. They are mostly "late game content" for me. For the occasional moments when I might be short on ideas.

Worst of all, several plots are (hearsay, haven't done myself), nothing but triggers, albeit covered in fluff. Triggers that modify NPC factions irreversibly. If we can do a plot to start a war, then we should have a plot to stop it. Better yet, be able to rinse and repeat*.

Some terraforming missions are triggers too. What are "unlocks reputation" and "can field more military vessels" if not triggered changes?


Could there be "a plot" that changes the number of XEN jobs? Sure, why not? Does someone have ideas for the fluff for it?

Should it be buried behind other plots, like most now require the "Cthulhu cow"? Hell no. The "late game" starts when the game starts, not later.
If you can't complete such plot within first hour of game in your starting spacesuit, then the plot ain't worth doing.

Note that XEN are aggressive to begin with. You can't increase that. You can allow them to build more ships so that they have more fleets to rampage with (simultaneously).

Intuitively, there should then be an opposite plot too. One that does make XEN passive. Not weak, just less eager to raid. That is surely an appealing case for traders; we know that NPC factions (e.g. ZYA) will still send ships for consumption in order to offer us profitsss.



* "Whose side is Jack on?"
"At the moment?"

[magitsu]

I agree with this one-way trigger sentiment. It feels off compared to the flexibility of other gameplay systems.
The series should move towards story generation / dynamic personalities.
It could remain consistent by walking back from the overreaches into things like terraforming. Those shouldn't be what a single spacesuit start could achieve. If that scale was left to the fixed story arcs, then the level below them could be allowed to be more anarchy/random.

More control to the player, but back off the ridiculous idea of affecting things at the galaxy scale. You are just a single pilot, not even a personification of a country like in Paradox GSGs.

[GCU Grey Area]

Entirely the opposite for me. X4 has some of my favourite plots among the X games, precisely because they let me meddle in a meaningful way with inter-factional politics. One of their strengths for me is that they do have lasting consequences & that starting wars (or creating peace) between factions isn't as simple as flicking a light switch on or off at will. Means in each game I have to think carefully about which outcome in each plot will be most beneficial for the character I'm playing in that particular game & the factions I'm most closely allied with.

[Raptor34]

Personally I'd add some triggerable end game crisis, like huge Xenon outbreak - similar to Stellaris crysis.

I agree. The upcoming Boron DLC is apparently going to have us do a quest to connect them, use that, but this time it's connecting to a whole bunch of resource rich Xenon sectors. Or Khaak, I want to see what kind of havoc Khaak Destroyers can cause. And for the Khaak thing, perhaps just like how terraforming let's us disable the SCA, this new Khaak storyline could be a reprise of OFF.

[jlehtone]

Have we digressed from the purpose (of the thread)?

The Galaxy has a state. The simulation is ripples within that state. Some player actions do replace the state with some different state. For example, adding a DLC or completing Paranid plot do change what factions (and sectors) there are. The simulation then runs in the new state.

A state is not a purpose or goal. A state is where we play in. We could wipe all Xenon out in the initial state and then do a plot that starts new wars to fuel our profitss when Xenon are no longer able to do so.

One of their [plots] strengths for me is that they do have lasting consequences & that starting wars (or creating peace) between factions isn't as simple as flicking a light switch on or off at will.

True. Whether the series of missions that is the plot feels something significant or just a flick of switch is subjective, but the lasting consequences do add gravitas.

Means in each game I have to think carefully about which outcome in each plot will be most beneficial for the character I'm playing in that particular game & the factions I'm most closely allied with.

This shows that we can and want to play in more than one state within the game. A huge Xenon outbreak is not a goal; it is a state that some of us would like to play in.