Missile capacity should be based on number of missile launchers

[Falcrack]

Just my opinion. So for example, an Eclipse with a single missile launcher could be equipped with up to 5 missiles, while an Eclipse with 4 missile launchers could be equipped with up to 20 missiles. It makes no sense to me that all you need is a single launcher and you have the same missile capacity as if you had several.

Maybe Mk2 launchers could hold 7 missiles each, or have shorter reload times between launches, or something like that.

[chew-ie]

While we are at it - please add separate missile launcher slots to the ships. Sacrificing a weapon slot is not feasible - even less so as the missile capacity is way too low.

VRO handles the missile capacity topic a lot better btw.

[Falcrack]

While we are at it - please add separate missile launcher slots to the ships. Sacrificing a weapon slot is not feasible - even less so as the missile capacity is way too low.

VRO handles the missile capacity topic a lot better btw.

Oh yes, another change to missiles I would like to see. I like how in Star Wars mod, there are several slots which are missile only. That way you never feel like you are wasting a slot by taking anti-fighter missiles, which is how it absolutely feels like in vanilla X4.

You know what? Just take all the balancing suggestions from Shuulo from now on, since you hired him

[GCU Grey Area]

Disagree with both of the above.

In X3 would dearly have loved to be able to swap out the mandatory missile launcher that every ship had & replace it with an additional gun. Overwhelming majority of my ships never fired even a single missile so the presence of that launcher was a complete waste. Conversely for for ships in which I did use missiles would also have often found it handy to have more than one launcher. Damn glad X4 removed that limitation & allows me to fit as many launchers as I want on each ship, from zero to all weapon slots.

Also strongly disagree that ships should have no internal missile storage. In particular would be a huge nerf to frigates since most of them have relatively few weapon slots. I would find it somewhat ridiculous for a Dragon to have twice the capacity of a Cobra, considering the substantial difference in size.

[Falcrack]

Disagree with both of the above.

In X3 would dearly have loved to be able to swap out the mandatory missile launcher that every ship had & replace it with an additional gun. Overwhelming majority of my ships never fired even a single missile so the presence of that launcher was a complete waste. Conversely for for ships in which I did use missiles would also have often found it handy to have more than one launcher. Damn glad X4 removed that limitation & allows me to fit as many launchers as I want on each ship, from zero to all weapon slots.

Also strongly disagree that ships should have no internal missile storage. In particular would be a huge nerf to frigates since most of them have relatively few weapon slots. I would find it somewhat ridiculous for a Dragon to have twice the capacity of a Cobra, considering the substantial difference in size.

I figured you would pop in to strongly disagree, you seem to strongly disagree with just about any time I make a gameplay suggestion!

X3 was horrible with missiles, because it made no sense to me that your cargo capacity was shared between missiles, installed guns, installed shields, and whatever other random crap you had stuffed in the cargo bay. It made no logical sense.

Logically, it makes sense to me that missiles should be stored in the missile launchers and not internal storage. How would they get into the launchers from the cargo bay? Some sort of magic missile shuttle system, built into every ship linking the cargo bay to each weapon slot?

[GCU Grey Area]

I figured you would pop in to strongly disagree, you seem to strongly disagree with just about any time I make a gameplay suggestion!

Only when you make a suggestion that would wreck a part of the game which I find immensely enjoyable.

In this case I very much enjoy dive-bombing capital ships with a frigate. For reference I usually get through around 15-20 torps to dispose of a K. With the game as it is currently I can do that to several capitals before I need to retreat to reload &, no matter which frigate I fly, can still have at least one weapon slot left for a gun with which to fight with any S & M size ships which might be protecting those capitals. With your proposed change I'd run out before I'd finished even one, or be forced to fill every slot on a Cobra with launchers, or only ever fly a Falx. None of those outcomes seems remotely attractive to me.

[chew-ie]

There is nothing enjoyable with missile mechanics in X4 vanilla right now. Especially in S/M ships they are too big of a tradeoff right now. Proper loadouts start with L ships and pinnacle is XL Asgard with 1000 missile capacity. But then there is the whole restock mechanic which needs a complete revamp OR the missile loadouts have to get drastically increased. As it is right now your ships either constantly block the aux ships for restocks - preventing critical repairs or leave half of the fleet with no missiles.

And don't suggest lategame stuff like "just throw 20 aux ships in the fleet / quickly build missile facilities close to the front" nonsens. This has to get a better balance. Being in deep space, far away from home it is the far better choice to just stuff lasers into the equipments slots then to waste them with missile turrets / pods which run dry after a few battles. If Xenon go nuts (and I'm really mostly talking about deep space military operations here) 200 missiles are gone very quickly.

So either the missile mechanic gets a major revamp or it is plain useless for everything smaller a L or XL ship. I mean it. And to top it all off there is still the bug that OOS the missiles are gone within seconds without doing _any_ damage. So bye bye millions of credits for torpedos without any effect. And _don't_ play the micromanagement card here as well - or I'm ²

[Falcrack]

I figured you would pop in to strongly disagree, you seem to strongly disagree with just about any time I make a gameplay suggestion!

Only when you make a suggestion that would wreck a part of the game which I find immensely enjoyable.

You have a strange sense of taste if you describe missile balance in X4 vanilla as "immensely enjoyable", but to each his own I guess.

[GCU Grey Area]

There is nothing enjoyable with missile mechanics in X4 vanilla right now. Especially in S/M ships they are too big of a tradeoff right now. Proper loadouts start with L ships and pinnacle is XL Asgard with 1000 missile capacity.

Best not to assume that what you find enjoyable, or not, is the same for everyone.

Know it's a popular ship, however personally do not much like Asgard. Turn rate's far too low for me to enjoy flying one personally & it's abysmal speed makes it awkward for fleet use. Had a couple in my Terran game & got utterly fed up with constantly waiting for them to catch up with the fleet, so what they mostly ended up doing was guarding my HQ. I also don't usually install missile turrets on capitals. Sometimes have one on a capital if I'll be flying it personally but that's about it.

My primary missile users are S heavy bombers in the Attack groups aboard my carriers. Found they have a significantly better chance of knocking out subsystems on enemy capitals if I give them missiles (usually Starburst or Heavy Swarm) than if they're relying on guns alone. Also, as noted above, I'm very fond of torpedoes for my personal frigates. Well worth the trade off if I can have 1 gun for the small ships & 1 torpedo launcher for the big stuff & be able to take on almost any ship in the game (exceptions are ships with 4 or more XL shields - regen rate's too high to brute force with a single torp launcher, but there aren't too many of those).

[Imperial Good]

Just my opinion. So for example, an Eclipse with a single missile launcher could be equipped with up to 5 missiles, while an Eclipse with 4 missile launchers could be equipped with up to 20 missiles. It makes no sense to me that all you need is a single launcher and you have the same missile capacity as if you had several.

Maybe Mk2 launchers could hold 7 missiles each, or have shorter reload times between launches, or something like that.

X4 already does increase missile capacity per launcher... In fact, that is the only benefit of MK2 launchers, they add more missile capacity than mk1 launchers.

If the amount of capacity the mk2 launchers add is balanced is another question. They are a lot more expensive than mk1 launchers for no benefit other than allowing the ship to hold more missiles.

This logic also applies to L Missile turrets. The only benefit L missile turrets have over M missile turrets is the huge missile storage capacity.

[LameFox]

I actually dislike the launchers being tied to capacity, because it means that when I try to give them more capacity, what they do is spam out more missiles—most of which are FAR in excess of what is needed—wasting their ammo and running out sooner.

[GCU Grey Area]

You have a strange sense of taste if you describe missile balance in X4 vanilla as "immensely enjoyable", but to each his own I guess.

It's how I use them that I find immensely enjoyable. From about 10-15km away I carefully aim my frigate at the target (starting with it's turrets), hit the boosters, then launch a torp at the last possible moment. Pull up, hit the boosters again & do my best to avoid slamming straight into the side of the target, or taking too much turret fire. Rinse & repeat at roughly 15 second intervals (assuming high rolled Cowboy mod on the launcher) until target is defanged. Then go in close & hammer it with everything I've got, starting with it's shield generators. Boost-launched torps are moving at several km/s when they hit & are virtually impossible to evade or distract with flares (they're dumbfires at that sort of speed, for all intents & purposes). It's not a subtle approach, but it is a hell of a lot of fun.

[chew-ie]

There is nothing enjoyable with missile mechanics in X4 vanilla right now. Especially in S/M ships they are too big of a tradeoff right now. Proper loadouts start with L ships and pinnacle is XL Asgard with 1000 missile capacity.

Best not to assume that what you find enjoyable, or not, is the same for everyone.

I politely suggest that you apply your own advice

[LameFox]

tbh, the more I think of it, I wish missiles would still go in the cargo bay. The cargo stat is pretty much irrelevant for combat ships now outside of piracy—and piracy of cargo is itself pretty irrelevant because it does not scale past the player individually performing it, and a single cargo hold of even relatively valuable wares is not very profitable for the time and player attention it takes.

Or if not that, then maybe an invisible module that replaces some of the cargo bay with missile storage.

[mr.WHO]

Oh yes, another change to missiles I would like to see. I like how in Star Wars mod, there are several slots which are missile only. That way you never feel like you are wasting a slot by taking anti-fighter missiles, which is how it absolutely feels like in vanilla X4.

Same here - it feels much better to have separate and dedicated missile laucher slot in SWI.
In vanilla X4 I never seen it worth to waste weapon mount for missiles, especially with very convoluded and irritating logistics with Carriers/Auxilary ships.
At some point I even stopped bother with missiles on my own player ship.


Missiles in X4 definetly need an major overhaul - especially the "default" missile storage stats (e.g. every fighter in galaxy having 20 missile storage).

[Raptor34]

Just my opinion. So for example, an Eclipse with a single missile launcher could be equipped with up to 5 missiles, while an Eclipse with 4 missile launchers could be equipped with up to 20 missiles. It makes no sense to me that all you need is a single launcher and you have the same missile capacity as if you had several.

Maybe Mk2 launchers could hold 7 missiles each, or have shorter reload times between launches, or something like that.

X4 already does increase missile capacity per launcher... In fact, that is the only benefit of MK2 launchers, they add more missile capacity than mk1 launchers.

If the amount of capacity the mk2 launchers add is balanced is another question. They are a lot more expensive than mk1 launchers for no benefit other than allowing the ship to hold more missiles.

This logic also applies to L Missile turrets. The only benefit L missile turrets have over M missile turrets is the huge missile storage capacity.

This. Which is why I find this thread confusing.
Like it literally already works this way.

[Alan Phipps]

I think the OP advocates that just the launchers provide missile storage and capacity on a per-launcher basis and with no inherent ship internal capacity for them. So adding the first launcher provides the first missile storage rather than adding to it. The OP doesn't really say why apart from perceived realism reasons. (There are in reality missile launchers that store all that they can fire per sortie, and there are others that can and do use a magazine system for reloads.)

GCU disagrees with that suggestion for their own playstyle reasons, but there is no reason for the parties involved to get worked up or personal about it.

[LameFox]

That would make my concern with them even worse. If launchers are the only source of missiles and a t2 launcher has 7 missile capacity then no matter how many launchers I add, that ship is good for only 7 salvos. That is awful. The ship will waste a bunch of missiles overkilling some fighter/turrets and then be useless. And the only work around as I see it would be to manually disable some launchers so that they are essentially inert storage systems, and giving myself some kind of RSI in the process.

[Alan Phipps]

Perhaps another question to ask would be how any non-launcher ship could ever collect floating ammunition containers as loot.

[S!rAssassin]

how any non-launcher ship could ever collect floating ammunition containers as loot.

To cargobay, as previous games.