Two clicks for the price of one, please.

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Submarine
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Two clicks for the price of one, please.

Post by Submarine » Tue, 25. Oct 22, 11:21

There are many places in the X4 interface where two clicks are required where only one is necessary.

Making simple improvements to make gameplay smoother via improved ergonomic efficiency by removing the need to make extra clicks would make a real difference to using the X4 interface and the feeling of the gameplay it creates.

I invite other players to add their observations to the list below of situations where one less click would be better, which is by no means comprehensive but gives a feel for the scale of the issue and correspondingly the scale of the difference which could be made to the play experience by attending to this.

  • First and most egregious, when getting into the pilots chair one has to click it twice. I can think of no occasion for asking the pilot to leave and not then immediately occupying the chair but the interface requires doing it twice, every time. Worse than this, in smaller S clas ships like the Moreya "Geometric Owl" the cockpit is narrow and the "hitbox" of the departing pilot often wibbles about and gets in the way of the chair, obliging a relatively lengthy conversation to tell them to go away. It is very wearing when you have to repeat this dozens of times when doing repair missions and visiting stations etc. The extra click is entirely superfluous and makes the process more of a chore than it needs to be.
  • Returning from encyclopedia to ship refit etc requires two clicks of the back arrow or esc button. Again there is no need for two clicks. The first click takes you to a blank screen which it should not, it should take you all the way back to the window you just came from e.g. the repair and refit interface.
  • Returning from ship refit to map. Ditto, when investigating refit options from map, returning from the refit interface takes you inexplicably to a blank screen, when it should take you all the way back to the map.
  • Adding elements to trade search filter list requires a superfluous OK to confirm the choice, when all that is needed is to record the radio button for an item at the moment it is set so the act of selecting or deselecting an item effectively edits the list.
  • Selecting anchor space / location when giving orders requires diddling about clicking the order element first to set the cursor to choose the location in space for protect location and other orders as well. This is inexplicably more complicated than orders like collect drops or attack all targets which just get on with it. Similarly autotrade anchor space has to be selected from a list, via clicking an order element, when it would be far easier to click the map directly, which the cursor ought to change to allow immediately on setting the order type rather than requiring the unecessary diddling about with the interface.

My recommendation after a few weeks play since coming back to X4 to try the new DLC would be that X4 really needs an investment in quality of life for players (as well as optimisation, especially load times) because the game feels more unecessarily cumbersome to play than it needs to at the moment.
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Re: Two clicks for the price of one, please.

Post by Jeraal » Tue, 25. Oct 22, 22:01

Really need thumbs up/down or agree/disagree buttons. You would get an agree from me. But, since we don't...

+1
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Re: Two clicks for the price of one, please.

Post by ahostofissues » Wed, 26. Oct 22, 02:10

After more than 1000 hours in X4, I think, hands down without any hesitation or debate, that the worst part of X4 is the interface in many, many places.

The game mechanics are all there. They work. You have to do some semi-funky workarounds for stuff in several places, but everything’s there. It’s a great game. It’s fun and challenging and complex and interesting.

And there’s a UI in front of it that just absolutely makes.no.damn.sense in many places.

I know it’s entirely possible that Egosoft has different data than I have access to, data that might show that people go for all the nifty extras more than UI, so they only stay in business by concentrating efforts elsewhere.

But, I mean, really? I just don’t see how that could be true. Maybe it is. But I just don’t see how.

From the outside, from a player perspective, it seems like there just wasn’t anyone internally at Egosoft to argue the case that UI matters as much or more as all the visual nifty doo-dads they spent their development budget on. The immersive “lets make it seem like a real world with real people walking around real stations” budget was WAY WAY too large an allocation relative to the “lets pay good UX designers to tell the developers where the interface sucks, and pay the developers whatever they need to rework things to fix those issues.”

Great company for designing game mechanics. Third-rate-at-best company for designing UI to effectively interact with those mechanics. They just don’t spend enough time time/budget on this. (That is, on developer budget to rework things to allow UI to be better; I suspect in many cases UI is “best we can do given how this stuff under the UI is implemented…”)

But I’ve played 1000 hours and will probably buy any expansion they release. So maybe they’re the ones laughing, despite how frustrating it all is on this end.

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Re: Two clicks for the price of one, please.

Post by Submarine » Sat, 5. Nov 22, 12:07

I wont be buying an expansion if the interface is not fixed and that is a promise, to myself. I dont appreciate the priorities on display here or the situation it leaves me in.

Here is another one, why do we have to press the external view button twice for our own craft F2 or the target F3 in order to be able to move the POV around the focus? Why? It is completely redundant and shouldnt be like that, should be one press and into the purpose of the action. This is another pre-beta wrinkle that should have been removed years ago and it does not take that much to fix these kinds of snags, which are all over the place. But years later it has not been done.

In my view its the difference between caring about your product and not and if egosoft dont care about it why should I, I have plenty of fish to fry ?
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Re: Two clicks for the price of one, please.

Post by GCU Grey Area » Sat, 5. Nov 22, 12:23

Submarine wrote:
Sat, 5. Nov 22, 12:07
Here is another one, why do we have to press the external view button twice for our own craft F2 or the target F3 in order to be able to move the POV around the focus? Why?
They serve different functions. First press gives you a viewpoint which is astern of your ship or target. This view's more useful if you want to fly the ship from an external view, or to see where a target's going or what it's shooting at (often use the latter when watching my fighters at work). Second press lets you move the viewpoint, which is great for screenshots but is more or less useless as an external view while flying & needs constant adjustment if you want to follow what a target ship's doing.

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Re: Two clicks for the price of one, please.

Post by Submarine » Sat, 5. Nov 22, 12:45

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Sat, 5. Nov 22, 12:23
Submarine wrote:
Sat, 5. Nov 22, 12:07
Here is another one, why do we have to press the external view button twice for our own craft F2 or the target F3 in order to be able to move the POV around the focus? Why?
They serve different functions. First press gives you a viewpoint which is astern of your ship or target. This view's more useful if you want to fly the ship from an external view, or to see where a target's going or what it's shooting at (often use the latter when watching my fighters at work). Second press lets you move the viewpoint, which is great for screenshots but is more or less useless as an external view while flying & needs constant adjustment if you want to follow what a target ship's doing.
I am sorry but this is muddled and not a believable explanation.

The first and second press for F2 F3 dont serve different functions in the way you describe and do follow the ship. I think you are confounding second F2 F3 press with F4, which is a cinematic view which doesn't follow the ship. That is not what I am talking about.

If the first keypress F2 F3 places you in the default POV then there is no reason to require a second keypress to adjust the POV. It serves no purpose and the POV (which follows the ship in both states but not its orientation perhaps you mean) should be adjustable as of the moment you adopt it. If you don't choose to adjust it then it should stay at the default angle and if you do then a second key press should not be required, it is completely redundant.

You should also be able to adjust the fixed angle+zoom distance at which you follow the ship hull in tune with its orientation. Then there would be a need for two states but the current situation does not allow that and requires a redundant keypress.

Just no need for it, makes using the interface harder, get rid of it! (Or add the functionality which would make it make sense.)
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Re: Two clicks for the price of one, please.

Post by GCU Grey Area » Sat, 5. Nov 22, 13:01

Submarine wrote:
Sat, 5. Nov 22, 12:45
The first and second press for F2 F3 dont serve different functions in the way you describe and do follow the ship.
They work exactly as described. Second press keeps the ship centred in view. However, this is not the same as following the ship. After changing the ship's trajectory it won't keep what's ahead in view - e.g. yaw 90° to port & what you see is a side view of the ship instead. Hence pretty much useless as an external view while flying, at least not without constant manual adjustment of the viewpoint to match the manoeuvres of the ship (or target).

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Re: Two clicks for the price of one, please.

Post by Submarine » Sat, 5. Nov 22, 13:54

OK so terminology aside the fact remains that you cannot adjust the angle or distance at which the POV follows the ship orientation in first F2 view which I will call F2' (F2 prime). And the POV does not follow the ship orientation though you can adjust angle and zoom in F2" (F2 double prime). Therefore the second F2 keypress is redundant and the interface should transition from F2' to F2" the moment you use controls to adjust POV.

What is missing, which is a different topic, is the ability to adjust POV in F2'. You cannot adjust POV in F2' at the moment, its fixed, like it or lump it. If you could then there might be a valid reason for requiring a second keypress to transition to F2". Currently that reason does not exist and we are asked to press the same key twice when once would do.
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Re: Two clicks for the price of one, please.

Post by GCU Grey Area » Sat, 5. Nov 22, 14:20

Personally find both F2/F3 modes useful as they are & would not want to lose either function. Indeed find it quite handy to be able to use the same control for both. Don't have to find a second set of keys to assign (keyboard's already pretty crowded as it is), or mess with shift+F2 (or similar) to activate the second mode. Also makes it considerably easier to find room for view controls on my HOTAS. As far as I'm concerned pressing a key twice to shift view control into an alternate mode is quicker & better than the alternatives (particularly dislike shift+key combinations & usually remap them to single keys).

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Re: Two clicks for the price of one, please.

Post by Submarine » Sat, 5. Nov 22, 15:03

Noone suggested removing functionality or using a modifier key, I can agree that would be unnecessary and counterproductive.

Pressing a key twice is undeniably not as good as pressing it once and getting exactly the same functionality though, surely ?

The topic being... "Two clicks for the price of one, please." :)
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Re: Two clicks for the price of one, please.

Post by GCU Grey Area » Sat, 5. Nov 22, 16:24

Submarine wrote:
Sat, 5. Nov 22, 15:03
Pressing a key twice is undeniably not as good as pressing it once and getting exactly the same functionality though, surely ?
Only if it is the same functionality, however in this case it isn't. One external view mode is relative to the ship, the other is relative to the sector with the ship in the centre of the screen (defaults to looking north & slightly down before adjustment). Find both modes useful. Latter mode particularly so during fleet battles, where I find that having an external view which defaults to a consistent orientation very useful for keeping track of where a particular object is & which direction it's moving in, in relation to everything else nearby.

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Re: Two clicks for the price of one, please.

Post by Submarine » Sat, 5. Nov 22, 16:44

No, it is exactly the same functionality because you automatically switch to the second mode if the player uses any of the POV adjustment keys, you simply dont need to press F2 again, thats the whole point and since you can't use POV adjustment in the first mode, nothing is lost except a redundant keypress.

:|
Submarine wrote:
Sat, 5. Nov 22, 13:54
the interface should transition from F2' to F2" the moment you use controls to adjust POV.
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Re: Two clicks for the price of one, please.

Post by GCU Grey Area » Sat, 5. Nov 22, 17:10

Submarine wrote:
Sat, 5. Nov 22, 16:44
No, it is exactly the same functionality because you automatically switch to the second mode if the player uses any of the POV adjustment keys, you simply dont need to press F2 again, thats the whole point and since you can't use POV adjustment in the first mode, nothing is lost except a redundant keypress.
That would often be really quite jarring - to start with a view from immediately behind a ship, then press a key to move POV, say, to the left & immediately POV shifts to looking north instead...

Suspect what most people would expect when adjusting POV would be for it to move left when pressing left, rather than to a particular compass direction. Reckon it would just end up with a lot of threads about how view controls are broken.

Still of the opinion that it's best to keep these modes separate, they have distinctly different uses.

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Re: Two clicks for the price of one, please.

Post by Nanook » Sat, 5. Nov 22, 19:10

Submarine wrote:
Tue, 25. Oct 22, 11:21
...
  • First and most egregious, when getting into the pilots chair one has to click it twice. I can think of no occasion for asking the pilot to leave and not then immediately occupying the chair ...
I can, and often do, when, for example, I want the current pilot to change to being a marine, or to move them to another ship, or if I'm preparing to sell the ship. The way to fix this is to make clicks on the chair have the pilot get up and then the player get it, while clicks on the pilot would accomplish the aforementioned tasks. The real problem with the current system is that the second click, if done too quickly, is on the NPC pilot leaving the chair, and then there's more clicks to get out of that conversation and then click on the chair. :roll:
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Re: Two clicks for the price of one, please.

Post by Submarine » Sat, 5. Nov 22, 20:29

Nanook wrote:
Sat, 5. Nov 22, 19:10
Submarine wrote:
Tue, 25. Oct 22, 11:21
...
  • First and most egregious, when getting into the pilots chair one has to click it twice. I can think of no occasion for asking the pilot to leave and not then immediately occupying the chair ...
I can, and often do, when, for example, I want the current pilot to change to being a marine, or to move them to another ship, or if I'm preparing to sell the ship. The way to fix this is to make clicks on the chair have the pilot get up and then the player get it, while clicks on the pilot would accomplish the aforementioned tasks. The real problem with the current system is that the second click, if done too quickly, is on the NPC pilot leaving the chair, and then there's more clicks to get out of that conversation and then click on the chair. :roll:

Yes I agree. I feel the main point stands as that is a relatively rare event compared to taking the pilots seat yourself which I do dozens if not hundreds of times for every time I want to talk to the pilot in the cabin if I am honest.

Its not necessary to set the default as *they get up but you dont get in the seat* as the facility to make them "get up" and vacate the chair without occupying it yourself is already present among the direct dialogue options for those relatively infrequent occasions when that is your requirement, for whatever reason that may be.

They don't have to get up to chat as you say, as you can talk to the pilot without asking them to leave the chair in the field of play by watching where your mouse highlights. You just aim above the chair at their head. It can be useful for giving pilot seminars and grabbing inventory ocasionally and that can be used for asking them to "get up" without occupying the chair yourself.

Plus of course you can comm through the map listing, ship information interface and the pilot personnel list, so really you are spoilt for choice.

But when the prime objective is taking the seat, it should be quick and easy and the two click system satisfies no requirement not already catered for in triplicate and it makes taking the chair twice as hard as it needs to be, far more frequently than it makes asking them to get up convenient, plus doing it in battle becomes an exercise in disaster/futility as you stop for a chat while a P is gouging hull metal.

Why do that to us? It makes no sense, the poor misguided Xenon.

Which is why I feel it remains true that F or click on the seat should mean expeditious swap and no diddling about.
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Re: Two clicks for the price of one, please.

Post by Baddieus » Sun, 6. Nov 22, 01:37

I miss using Shift + E from X3 to go from the chair to the space suit instantly without question ... perhaps that can be re-coded into X4 to go directly from the chair to the suit without having to press enter, select the option to get up, wait on the pilot to emerge, click the rear panel, select to use spacesuit, and then click one final time to be sure this is what I really want to do. There is a cut-scene of sorts once all the clicking is done & you go from being on the ship to being in the external dock floating out ... so I would suggest an optional ship control in the settings that we experienced players can manually engage that will allow Shift + E (or other combination) to go from the chair to floating out the dock into space instantly.

As for returning to the chair ... perhaps while standing within ship in space using Shift + C as an option will automatically take the chair from wherever the player is standing?
On the station we use Shift + D to go straight to the ship, or select a ship to go to, then we could Shift + C to take the chair after the ship is selected? (Thinking hold Shift, press D you're on board, press C you're in the chair, press D again and you're flying.)

Just some thoughts ...

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Re: Two clicks for the price of one, please.

Post by Socratatus » Sun, 6. Nov 22, 02:09

Submarine wrote:
Tue, 25. Oct 22, 11:21

First and most egregious, when getting into the pilots chair one has to click it twice. I can think of no occasion for asking the pilot to leave and not then immediately occupying the chair but the interface requires doing it twice, every time.
sigh...
Just because YOU can't think of one, doesn't mean others can't.

Ok, I'm an immersion player. Sometimes I order my co-pilot out of the seat and NOT sit in it myself. I just want that seat empty for roleplay reasons (I hope you don't expect me to go into details). I don't always want to immediately sit in the chair afterwards.

Sometimes I'm amazed at the total lack of imagination of people who play games. If they don't like it, no one else possibly could!

But I can understand what you're saying, so the Devs could make it OPTIONAL, so I don't have to play your way.
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Re: Two clicks for the price of one, please.

Post by ahostofissues » Sun, 6. Nov 22, 02:42

Socratatus wrote:
Sun, 6. Nov 22, 02:09
Submarine wrote:
Tue, 25. Oct 22, 11:21

First and most egregious, when getting into the pilots chair one has to click it twice. I can think of no occasion for asking the pilot to leave and not then immediately occupying the chair but the interface requires doing it twice, every time.
sigh...
Just because YOU can't think of one, doesn't mean others can't.

Ok, I'm an immersion player. Sometimes I order my co-pilot out of the seat and NOT sit in it myself. I just want that seat empty for roleplay reasons (I hope you don't expect me to go into details). I don't always want to immediately sit in the chair afterwards.

Sometimes I'm amazed at the total lack of imagination of people who play games. If they don't like it, no one else possibly could!

But I can understand what you're saying, so the Devs could make it OPTIONAL, so I don't have to play your way.
There’s no functional reason for an empty chair. If it were removed, it would have zero effect on the game. So it’s “flavor”, which I understand has the side benefit of allowing someone like you to assign a made-up pretend purpose for it (no insult intended). I got no hatred for role play. All good.

But there’s a big difference between “flavor” that adds atmosphere (e.g. the decor in station trader area) and flavor which actually has the functional effect of making the game UI harder and more frustrating to operate.

Empty chair is in the second category. It leads to all kinds of actual functional gameplay problems like accidentally talk-activating the pilot who is in the course of standing up, making it frustrating to “point” at the right thing in tight cockpits when the chair is doing it’s rotation animation, etc.

I get why you like it. But that’s not sufficient reason, not even close, to inflict on everyone else the UI problems it creates.

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Re: Two clicks for the price of one, please.

Post by GCU Grey Area » Sun, 6. Nov 22, 11:29

Socratatus wrote:
Sun, 6. Nov 22, 02:09
Submarine wrote:
Tue, 25. Oct 22, 11:21

First and most egregious, when getting into the pilots chair one has to click it twice. I can think of no occasion for asking the pilot to leave and not then immediately occupying the chair but the interface requires doing it twice, every time.
sigh...
Just because YOU can't think of one, doesn't mean others can't.

Ok, I'm an immersion player. Sometimes I order my co-pilot out of the seat and NOT sit in it myself. I just want that seat empty for roleplay reasons (I hope you don't expect me to go into details). I don't always want to immediately sit in the chair afterwards.

Sometimes I'm amazed at the total lack of imagination of people who play games. If they don't like it, no one else possibly could!

But I can understand what you're saying, so the Devs could make it OPTIONAL, so I don't have to play your way.
Agree with Socratatus on this, although aside from immersion have encountered a few practical situations in which it was decidedly useful to leave the pilot's seat empty.

For example, ship delivery mission in The Void, in which the delivery zone quite close to one of the hazardous regions. Although there was plenty of room to park the ships outside the hazard, it was still close enough to trigger automatic risk avoidance. Method by which I got the ships to stay in place was to fly each ship in personally but leave each one there with the pilot's seat empty.

More generally, also tend to leave the pilot's seat empty on personal S fighters while they're docked aboard my capital ship. Just for the sake of speed in situations where I might end up dashing to the docks in an emergency where literally every second might count (e.g. my capital's engines have just exploded, so it's time for last ditch defence while my service crew try to fix the problem before the rest of the ship explodes).

Otherwise for me it's also just a matter of immersion. Have no issues at all with waiting a couple of seconds for my relief pilot to stand up & leave the cockpit before I take control.

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Re: Two clicks for the price of one, please.

Post by exogenesis » Sun, 6. Nov 22, 12:02

If you're very quick with two consecutive clicks on the chair
(I've unconsciously trained myself to be so)
you can avoid the 'talk' dialog - & you go staight to sitting,
but it seems to depend a bit on ship model.

However that makes it doubly frustrating when you don't get the timing quite right
& you're expecting to take control,
only to have the blasted pilot stand there & stare at you, blocking the chair access !

This is by far the most annoying thing in X4 for me.
I feel pretty self-controlled in that I think I've only destroyed one
display monitor by punching it in frustration over about the past year over this.
(unfortunately that was a £1600 one, now back on the £250 ones).

Get out of the (swear-swear) way you moron !, no you can't (swear) help me !!,
sod off out of the freakin way !!!


Would willingly pay ES n-times the price of X4 to remove this (& some other) 'irritations'...

/rant

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