Boarding is too easy money?

[S!rAssassin]

This options make possible board any ship without gunfire and reputation loss! With possibility to start boarding operation in pause just flyby near target in cruise mode, it`s like real cheat...

[jlehtone]

I cruise next to target with Asgard and launch as many marines as target fits. That makes target red.
When they are on the hull, I shoot the hull as low as I want.
As long as I don't hit any surface elements, the whole operation does not affect the reputation at all.

That was just a hypothetical scenario. In reality I do shoot the engine, the turrets, the defence drone, etc, because loss of reputation is either minor even in the worst case, or outright desirable.

This is a single-player game. If you feel that something is cheat, it is you who does it.

[Raptor34]

I did it thrice. Once to jack a FAF Rattlesnake when my rep was already at -18, another time to get the Erlking and one final time to grab a ZYA Raptor with fighters in it. Mainly because these two factions can be annoying to rebuild rep with while for the ZYA I was trying to clear Xenon space of them, could have just shot it with an Asgard but I figured why not, sadly the Raptor itself didn't come with any special paint jobs.
I say keep it, abuse it if you want, don't if you don't want to.
Incidentally, for the Raptor capture, it turned red and started shooting at me so I figure there is probably something there which determines whether it turns hostile or not. Lost like 5 Barbarossa capping it. It's fighters were being dumb though so I got all of them, then again I didn't fire back so probably didn't trigger anything, it was attacking the XEN shipyard at the time.
Tbh the real problem is the lack of rep loss for capture anyway.

[S!rAssassin]

Tbh the real problem is the lack of rep loss for capture anyway.

This! If we doesn`t get rep. loss for killing crew even near friendly station - we have legal cheat, not fairly boarding. If target can comm with friendlies and give us rep loss for firing - target must can report about crew killing!

But without total rebalance of boarding ops, this issue can be fixed by removing "Very hard" option in boarding plan. With gunfire we have get fair rep loss, if target near friendlies.

[jlehtone]

You say "Very hard option". There is one option for flying the pods to target and there is an another option for breaching the hull. Do you mean both?

You can disable engines and turrets without destroying them. That is not easy, but you lose no reputation no matter how much you shoot like that.

Shooting at hull does not lose any reputation. Ever. Only the final kill hit does. (Someone might get temporarily annoyed and that can escalate to kills, hence losses, but shooting targets hull down to 1% does not cost you anything.)

In other words, gunfire does not directly reduce reputation. Kills do. Whether you (have to) reduce hull does not have other effect than where you spend time.


An another point is that your poll has black and white options. I don't choose "Very Strong" hull target, because it, IMHO, takes too long. I don't use Teleport either, so that could be removed from the game entirely? Or perhaps we should let each player to make their own choice between what we consider cheesy and "fair"? Oh no, not acceptable -- everyone must play as I play; no other options.

[Raptor34]

In other words, gunfire does not directly reduce reputation. Kills do. Whether you (have to) reduce hull does not have other effect than where you spend time.

Speaking of which that's another "issue" I have too.
Like it's pretty dumb that if I say, strip out a friendly destroyer to perhaps prevent it from killing my boarding target, I take more rep loss compared to just one-shotting it with an Asgard.
Because apparently if I kill the ship, I do not actually kill the modules on it. Or so the rep system says.

[S!rAssassin]

Do you mean both?

Yep.

You can disable engines and turrets without destroying them.

Do boarding plan accept disabled, but not destroyed, elements?

Shooting at hull does not lose any reputation.

If target can comm with friendlies, you get penalty for “Unauthorized attack” with rep loss.

Or perhaps we should let each player to make their own choice between what we consider cheesy and "fair"? Oh no, not acceptable -- everyone must play as I play; no other options.

If game too easy, gamers lose interest mach faster...

[Nanook]

...
If game too easy, gamers lose interest mach faster...

The game is only as easy or as hard as the player wants it to be. If one takes advantage of every 'easy cheat', then yeah, it can be very easy. But if the player sets their own personal rules (that's how I play, btw) then the game can be very hard if they wish. This way, each player gets to play how they wish.

Only those players with little self-control may find it too easy.

[S!rAssassin]

Role play - is good. Bad balance - is not.

For easy start we have many abandoned ships. We have custom starts. We could have some interesting starts with big fleet with Asgard as flagman or big trading fleet...

That is the way. “Win button” - is not.

[Alan Phipps]

I'm with Nanook on this one. Sure there are always vanilla exploits and potential 'I Win' situations in most games, but as this is a single-player game it is always a choice whether to use them or not - once the game mechanics are well known.

In X4 I prefer the steady long haul game and so rarely use unusual progress advancement methods and I even impose extra gameplay rules to limit progression, but that doesn't mean that I totally dismiss them as options available to me if I get really stuck or want to accelerate progression a bit so as to improve the enjoyments and rewards associated with my playstyle. It's a bit like the personal choice whether to play vanilla (which I do) or go modded, or even whether save-scumming is used to get better outcomes.

In X3:AP I really enjoyed M7M missile barrage boarding of capitals even though many called it an 'I Win' button.

[Good Wizard]

Role play - is good. Bad balance - is not.

For easy start we have many abandoned ships. We have custom starts. We could have some interesting starts with big fleet with Asgard as flagman or big trading fleet...

That is the way. “Win button” - is not.

Please do not forget, that this 'Bad Balance' is subject to opinion. It is a matter of taste, and a matter how one plays and enjoys the game. You may not enjoy the game with what you call 'Easy Boarding'. But you are not forced to do it, right?

So why spoil the game with 'Balance' (after your taste, not mine in this case) for others? Just do not use it.

I have to admit, I do not like such discussions. In a single player game everybody can play (and cheat) how she wants. And this should remain so.

This is exactly the reason why I do not like games with multiplayer features. Even if these features are optional. As soon as a game has multiplayer features, endless discussions about 'anti cheating' and 'balance' ruin the game, everything is nerfed down and 'balanced' until the game is no longer fun to play for single players like me.

There are things in this game, which can be abused. Where is the problem? Just do not use them! There is no need to try to persuade the developers to make the game 'harder' for you. You can do this yourself, make a mod, or use a mod and all is fine. And others who like to play different are not bothered with such nerfs and 'balances'. There are newer players who have a lot of problems with boarding. Not everybody has all optimized for power gaming...

[S!rAssassin]

So why spoil the game with 'Balance' (after your taste, not mine in this case) for others? Just do not use it.

Because I see so many advises in internet to use this mechanic for fast money... Many new players do not see over aspects of game, such as trade, stations building, missions... Just grab expensive ships and sell it! Then welcome to forums and do topics about bad boring game without content...

[Nanook]

So why spoil the game with 'Balance' (after your taste, not mine in this case) for others? Just do not use it.

Because I see so many advises in internet to use this mechanic for fast money... Many new players do not see over aspects of game, such as trade, stations building, missions... Just grab expensive ships and sell it! Then welcome to forums and do topics about bad boring game without content...

Honestly, how many such posts from new players have you actually seen? All of the 'it's too easy' posts I've seen have come from longtime players.

But I think I have the solution to the 'cheap' boarding trick. I've come to the conclusion that the current situation is due to the massive complaints that Egosoft has gotten about friendly fire incidents. The way they solved it was to make hull damage less of a rep drop. This now allows the players to barely damage just the hull of a target, send in their marines, and not suffer any rep drop. The solution is to tie rep drop not to hull damage, but to the length of time it takes to capture the ship. Since marine boarding takes a lot longer with only minor hull damage, those who use this trick will suffer as great a rep drop as those who reduce the target ship to a near wreck and send in their marines for a quick grab. These players will suffer a rep drop the 'normal' way due to damage to the ship's components. So both types of players will suffer significant negative rep with the target faction.

[Raptor34]

So why spoil the game with 'Balance' (after your taste, not mine in this case) for others? Just do not use it.

Because I see so many advises in internet to use this mechanic for fast money... Many new players do not see over aspects of game, such as trade, stations building, missions... Just grab expensive ships and sell it! Then welcome to forums and do topics about bad boring game without content...

Honestly, how many such posts from new players have you actually seen? All of the 'it's too easy' posts I've seen have come from longtime players.

But I think I have the solution to the 'cheap' boarding trick. I've come to the conclusion that the current situation is due to the massive complaints that Egosoft has gotten about friendly fire incidents. The way they solved it was to make hull damage less of a rep drop. This now allows the players to barely damage just the hull of a target, send in their marines, and not suffer any rep drop. The solution is to tie rep drop not to hull damage, but to the length of time it takes to capture the ship. Since marine boarding takes a lot longer with only minor hull damage, those who use this trick will suffer as great a rep drop as those who reduce the target ship to a near wreck and send in their marines for a quick grab. These players will suffer a rep drop the 'normal' way due to damage to the ship's components. So both types of players will suffer significant negative rep with the target faction.

Sounds overcomplicated. Just have rep loss for capping a ship.

[jlehtone]

So why spoil the game with 'Balance' (after your taste, not mine in this case) for others? Just do not use it.

Because I see so many advises in internet to use this mechanic for fast money... Many new players do not see over aspects of game, such as trade, stations building, missions... Just grab expensive ships and sell it! Then welcome to forums and do topics about bad boring game without content...

There were also (now outdated) "advises" to gather crystals and to build a Wharf ASAP. Who writes those advises and therefore spoils the game for "new players"?

There sure have been annoyed posts since some of these "easy credits" methods did vanish. Do you want to be credited for the next "nerf"?

[S!rAssassin]

Do you want to be credited for the next "nerf"?

But it is not "nerf"! Just fair punishment for criminal action. You do not like man, who stolen your car, right?

[Caedes91]

So why spoil the game with 'Balance' (after your taste, not mine in this case) for others? Just do not use it.

Because I see so many advises in internet to use this mechanic for fast money... Many new players do not see over aspects of game, such as trade, stations building, missions... Just grab expensive ships and sell it! Then welcome to forums and do topics about bad boring game without content...

Literally every of these posts puts out a warning, saying "easy money" and "gamebreaking". If a player can not decide, that this method is not for them in a singleplayer sandbox, then they aren't enough to play the game to begin with. Egosoft has more pressing matters than nerfing something every player can simply refuse to do.

For example:

1. Improving CPU performance. Egosoft is still stuck in quadcore CPU era. Mid to lategame is always a slideshow. Even 5950x and 3090 don't get past 30fps. 99% of the playerbase without these overpriced hardware have it even worse.
2. Make station building less tedious, by significantly reducing module transparency in build window. Ever tried adding modules to bigger stations with many already existing modules? Also reduce snapping distance
3. Repair patrol behavior: Your people under attack can comm you from across the galaxy, but not ask your own local patrol for help? Spamming more ships for patrol is not a good solution, tanks performance
4. Add options to color ships in build menu, not clicking "redesign" for every goddamn ship of a fleet and waste one time use paintjobs, that you cannot even get, due to being locked behind ventures.
5. Add more ships, restore Rebirth ships and redesign old ones.
6. Give fleet leaders and stations the ability to replace lost subordinates on their own.
7. Boron still missing
8. Make all ship modding parts craftable, can teleport living beings, but not tune your ship?
9. Remove RNG from ship modding -> RNG has no right of existence in a space sci-fi sandbox. You also bring your car to workshop for random results?
10. Fix AI captains doing kamikaze maneuvers into enemy ships/stations, despite being equipped with long-range weaponry. Even 0 star captains shouldn't be that stupid. This is not challenge, but tedium.
11. Fix copy-paste stats of all factions ships and equipment.
12. Fix ship storage capicity on captal ships and deployable capacity on s- and m-class ships
13. Many, many more issues

[Duncaroos]

I'm really having trouble understanding this poll....what are you asking exactly?

[Katorone]

When boarding there's an option for the 'very hard' method, flyby boarding uses this option. OP wants this option removed so flyby boarding is nerfed.

[Nanook]

I don't think it should be removed, but there should be consequences for boarding any ship. Had never done 'flyby boarding' before so I tried it out on a Teladi freighter. 23 veterans vs 70+ mediocre marines and crewmembers. Right after sending the pods, the freighter turned red and started firing at me. I left it alone after the pods were all safely onboard. Several minutes later, the freighter turned back to blue (neutral) while my marines were still hacking their way through the hull. Meanwhile, it was merrily flying around trading with stations, selling its wares. After another 15-20 minutes, my marines finally break through the hull and start killing off crew. All the while this was happening, the ship stayed blue, no warnings by the ship and no calls for help. The ship stayed blue right up until it turned green (mine) with no marine losses. And I have a totally intact ship with no rep loss. BTW, that was right next to a Teladi station.

I'll never do this again since it's obviously a cheesy exploit. I say retain the very hard option, but make the ship become permanently hostile, have it call for help, and fight back until the end. There's no way a ship should sail blithely along with no reactions while it's actively being attacked from within, especially with no rep loss.