Orange failed orders message never goes away?

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oddible
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Orange failed orders message never goes away?

Post by oddible » Thu, 14. Apr 22, 23:38

So I had a station trader that got a failed orders message well over an hour ago. It has made several successful trades since then. The orange message is still there. Any way to clear it? It isn't helpful at all to have alerts showing when they're no longer relevant.

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Re: Orange failed orders message never goes away?

Post by Alan Phipps » Thu, 14. Apr 22, 23:46

Go into the ship's behaviour screen and delete the failed operations there. Not a prevention measure, obviously.

There have been many, many threads about the often unhelpful high-visibility icons and their usual irrelevance regarding these operation failure alerts.
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oddible
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Re: Orange failed orders message never goes away?

Post by oddible » Fri, 15. Apr 22, 02:02

Alan Phipps wrote:
Thu, 14. Apr 22, 23:46
Go into the ship's behaviour screen and delete the failed operations there. Not a prevention measure, obviously.
They're not there. They haven't been there in hours. This is a station assigned trader so it gets orders from the station, those failed, then it got new orders which succeeded, the orange message stayed - feels like a bug?

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mr.WHO
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Re: Orange failed orders message never goes away?

Post by mr.WHO » Fri, 15. Apr 22, 09:08

Now that I read this - in my game, I also have orange failed order nearly everywhere, to the point I ignore them.

I don't think this is an effective implemetation :(

thijso
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Failed orders, failed implementation

Post by thijso » Sun, 8. May 22, 10:52

I like the idea of the failed trade orders. If only the implementation had been a little more thought-through...

Most importantly, the notice actually doesn't give the most important (I'd nearly say the *only* important) information about the failed trade order: WHAT ware was involved? Why this doesn't show is completely beyond me. What use is it to know that there is "nothing to sell" or "not enough wares" if it doesn't say what ware? Truly baffles me.

As it is, it would be better not to show anything at all. Especially as I am now obligated to click a number of crosses to get rid of all the failed orders on a ship. Why not an option to dismiss them all at once? Sometimes these quality of life improvements are so simple...

I hope this was just an MVP (Minimum Viable Product) and that it gets improved soon. Because as it stands, my 2 cents is that it is useless and actually makes things worse.

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Re: Orange failed orders message never goes away?

Post by Good Wizard » Sun, 8. May 22, 11:29

mr.WHO wrote:
Fri, 15. Apr 22, 09:08
Now that I read this - in my game, I also have orange failed order nearly everywhere, to the point I ignore them.

I don't think this is an effective implemetation :(
I rather like this failed orders: They are really helpful in some cases, for example if a miner does Local Automining and cannot find a place to sell. This flags places, where Local Automine Orders will no longer work without manual help. Often it is enough to send the miner in a neighboring sector to sell per hand.

To get rid of the message just go to the ship information, commands tab and there you will find a separate box with the failed order - delete the box (does not change anything on current orders) and the message will disappear. It is very handy to point out problems with automation.

I see failed orders with miners like mentioned above and with traders, when the are 'looking for trades' and do not find one for a while. The latter happens now and then and points out an area where trades are rare - often it helps to edit the allowed trading wares, and sometimes the trader should be moved a bit. This too is helpful - and the in the ships command interface the failed order can be deleted to clear the warning, without changing the behavior of the ship.

So all in all I like this new feature, it helps to find problems with automation. It also is a step in the right direction, in regard to meaningful logs and messsages in case of problems and events in the game.

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Re: Orange failed orders message never goes away?

Post by af_2017 » Mon, 9. May 22, 15:53

Good Wizard wrote:
Sun, 8. May 22, 11:29
I rather like this failed orders: They are really helpful in some cases
I agree about "some case".

But this case turns into pain:
- trading station with 100 traders, start buying advanced electronics
- let's assume the station has very big container storage
- soon or later advanced electronics offer will end and all 100 ships will fail with buy order
Cleaning up them manually does not look inspiring.
Leaving them with failed orders removes sense of failed order indication. That is, if all ships have the indication it's the same as they do not, in both cases user will start ignoring the indication.
So seems in this case "failed buy order" is a problem of station manager and not trading ships. The manager gave the order to assigned ship so it seems logical the manager to report fail (somewhere in station info?) and clean failed orders for assigned ships. The task "buy ware" has been assigned to the manager by station's logical overview so it seems logical the manager should report the fail and not ships.
Thank you!
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TheDeliveryMan
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Re: Orange failed orders message never goes away?

Post by TheDeliveryMan » Mon, 9. May 22, 19:28

Indeed, too many false alarms are worse than no alarm at all!

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Re: Orange failed orders message never goes away?

Post by Good Wizard » Tue, 10. May 22, 15:24

af_2017 wrote:
Mon, 9. May 22, 15:53
I agree about "some case".

But this case turns into pain:
- trading station with 100 traders, start buying advanced electronics
- let's assume the station has very big container storage
- soon or later advanced electronics offer will end and all 100 ships will fail with buy order
Cleaning up them manually does not look inspiring.
Leaving them with failed orders removes sense of failed order indication. That is, if all ships have the indication it's the same as they do not, in both cases user will start ignoring the indication.
So seems in this case "failed buy order" is a problem of station manager and not trading ships. The manager gave the order to assigned ship so it seems logical the manager to report fail (somewhere in station info?) and clean failed orders for assigned ships. The task "buy ware" has been assigned to the manager by station's logical overview so it seems logical the manager should report the fail and not ships.
Thank you!
Yes - I never had anything of this dimensions in the game, never got big enough for something like this.

What happened to me yesterday: I have a station which produces Advanced Electronics. The station is in 2nd Contact (VII I think) and since the station manager already has 4 stars the delivery ship (his subordinate traders) range out quite far. So I suddenly found on of these traders in Faulty Logic. The reason is, that the Factions try to build stations in Xenon sectors, and delivery is possible. It was a problem with my blacklist/trading setting of course, and I corrected it (after saving the trader by micromanagement, since the AI is not good enough to AVOID enemies, it can only flee after being fired on, but this is another thing).

And after I did this (at least 20 or 30 minutes later) I suddenly had a failed order. Despite having the new blacklist on the station, not on the subordinates per ship, the station had the new blacklist and the ships inherited it, as it is meant to be (I think). The failed order said 'Target is blacklisted' - so the station generated an order to sell, despite its own blacklist, given to its ships forbade trading in this sector. Sadly it did not tell the failed location, but it must have been a sector I blocked off. So the station managers logic obviously was not informed in time. I deleted the failed order, but the ship still had its failed load of Advanced Electronics - but this fixed itself after a short while, as it received a new target. Now it seems to work.

So the entire station manager logic is a bit wonky again, as usual after updates...

I think they should maybe define conditions if and when such failed order messages are deleted automatically. The are very practical, but in a case like yours it is a pain to delete them manually. I think, they should be auto deleted if the state does not persist and a certain time has elapsed. If the failed state persists, they should remain.

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Re: Orange failed orders message never goes away?

Post by Targ Collective » Tue, 10. May 22, 15:42

Yes, this has become interface spam. It's useful for small fleets and beginner stations. It is ridiculous scaled up. If I could clean this up, I'd use one elegant step: Redundancies. Automine failing because they're assigned to a full station? Hide the orange. Maybe fallback to NPC trade if your station is filled up.

No salvage found? That's not a redundancy problem. Red.

For the lols. Green - successful orders in process.

Hide green. Hide orange. Hide red.

That would solve this problem. Orders successful - green; no redundancies found - orange; failed orders - red. Pathing for redundancies possible (Advanced Automine on a station will sell to the market if the station is full).

Hope this is useful. :)
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af_2017
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Re: Orange failed orders message never goes away?

Post by af_2017 » Tue, 10. May 22, 15:44

Good Wizard wrote:
Tue, 10. May 22, 15:24
they should be auto deleted if the state does not persist and a certain time has elapsed. If the failed state persists, they should remain.
"Problem timeout" does not look like a correct solution because that neither means that problem solved or never occurred. Just because if user see no failures it assumes that failures have never happen. So the timeout will hide problems breaking the idea of the notifications.

As I said that's station manager's problem if he can't sell ware.
I am not even sure if station's failed trade orders should be considered as a fail.
I can check station storage levels, check production modules, check traders logs to figure out that they are actually idling and not trading. The station can have [!] icon indicating that some storage is full or production does not work with an option "ok, but do not show this again" and "enable all warning back".
It seems expected that station trade failures will occur periodically and seems that defining the logic when "auto cleaning up of failed trades" must occur is rather tricky.
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Re: Orange failed orders message never goes away?

Post by GCU Grey Area » Tue, 10. May 22, 15:56

af_2017 wrote:
Tue, 10. May 22, 15:44
I am not even sure if station's failed trade orders should be considered as a fail.
Think it should be. Have had cases where a trade failed but the ship was unable to offload that cargo back at base, presumably because more had been made in the meantime & storage was full. Without the orange trade failed icon I would be unaware of such problem, at least not without periodically going through every single freighter or miner I own to check if it was stuck with excess cargo.

More generally, I do find the orange failed order icons more useful than not. They can highlight problems with specific ships or, if they're popping up with some frequency for several of the ships operating for the same station, a potential issue with how that station is configured that I'll need to look into.

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Re: Orange failed orders message never goes away?

Post by Targ Collective » Tue, 10. May 22, 15:59

GCU! I remember the old days of X3, and I always enjoyed reading your posts. Well written, polite, and usually informative. It's a pleasure to meet you online again. :) How have things been while I was away from the forums?
Learn to use stickies. Look here for mods for X3TC and here for guides across everything since X2. If you haven't read the Forum Rules do so before we beat you with sticks. Above all have fun.

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Re: Orange failed orders message never goes away?

Post by Targ Collective » Tue, 10. May 22, 16:03

One more refinement. Green, orange, red - failed orders by type. Somewhere in Player Information. Just a counter, and a button to generate a list of selectable ships.
Learn to use stickies. Look here for mods for X3TC and here for guides across everything since X2. If you haven't read the Forum Rules do so before we beat you with sticks. Above all have fun.

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Re: Orange failed orders message never goes away?

Post by GCU Grey Area » Tue, 10. May 22, 17:05

Targ Collective wrote:
Tue, 10. May 22, 15:59
GCU! I remember the old days of X3, and I always enjoyed reading your posts. Well written, polite, and usually informative. It's a pleasure to meet you online again. :) How have things been while I was away from the forums?
Thanks for the kind words. Still a few of us about from the old X3 days. As for how things have been, mostly it's been playing silly amounts of X4 for me (7k hours to date). By far the most addictive X game they've ever made, at least as far as I'm concerned.
Targ Collective wrote:
Tue, 10. May 22, 16:03
One more refinement. Green, orange, red - failed orders by type. Somewhere in Player Information. Just a counter, and a button to generate a list of selectable ships.
Maybe a failed orders section in the logbook? Might be handy to have them all listed together in the same place. Even better if such logbook entries could provide some info on the circumstances in which the order failed.

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Ehli
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Re: Orange failed orders message never goes away?

Post by Ehli » Thu, 12. May 22, 09:31

It's not a fix by any means, but I noticed the orange goes away if you select all your station subs, remove orders & assignments and re-assign them to the original station manager. Beats clicking a few 100 times!

exogenesis
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Re: Orange failed orders message never goes away?

Post by exogenesis » Thu, 12. May 22, 20:05

Thank you,
that's a relief !

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Re: Orange failed orders message never goes away?

Post by Admiral Sausage » Fri, 13. May 22, 12:43

Ehli wrote:
Thu, 12. May 22, 09:31
It's not a fix by any means, but I noticed the orange goes away if you select all your station subs, remove orders & assignments and re-assign them to the original station manager. Beats clicking a few 100 times!
For slightly fewer clicks, using the station properties to toggle the wing between docked and launched will also remove all the failed orders.

Manawydn
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Re: Orange failed orders message never goes away?

Post by Manawydn » Fri, 13. May 22, 18:03

A simple 'fix' would be a "clear all notifications" type of button.

As always, I see a bunch of people defending the issue because they had one or two ships with failed orders, and therefore don't see it as an issue.

As always, I would like to point out the "multiply that by 100" clause here. Whenever it comes to "manual" ANYTHING it's no big deal if it's just "one or two". It becomes a massive, unscalable issue once you multiply that by 100. Want to know more about what I mean? Check out my (now depreciated) sig-link. It goes in to detail.

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Re: Orange failed orders message never goes away?

Post by reifirup » Tue, 6. Jun 23, 21:31

I totaly agree with Manawydn.

I am at that point where its just to many. with over 20 stations, nearly hundred auto-miners, traders and station traders. Add to that several sector patrol, station defense and galactic attack fleets containing multiple L, M and hundreds of S ships.
I do not care 1 bloody bit about a station trader not being able to unload its cargo, it just waits for clear storage and then unloads. I do not need to micro manage that.
I do not care about a trader not being able to trade unknown goods if that traders keeps on trading after that. I do not want to micromanage 1 trader.
I do not care about whole fleets getting Failed Attack orders (auto) because their target left the system. That's totally okay, if the target left the system it is not a treat anymore is it ?

Leave me alone, i'm busy planning my next move, directing fleets, building stations or ordering new ships. I told you to Auto do something, if you fail that 1 time... I'm fine with that, i do not need to know.

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