Is Torus level actually inside Torus model?

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mr.WHO
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Is Torus level actually inside Torus model?

Post by mr.WHO » Thu, 22. Apr 21, 12:51

The Torus wreck looks kinda smaller from the outside, but when we fly into it it seems much larger.

Is Torus interior actually inside Torus wreack model, or are we magically teleported to somewhere else where the interior is not up to the scale of Torus exterior?

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Re: Is Torus level actually inside Torus model?

Post by Raptor34 » Thu, 22. Apr 21, 13:27

While its probably an optical illusion. It is pretty big on the outside too.
Its hard to say for sure since we now have seamless loading.
In the absence of actual facts though I'll say its actually inside. Also might be actually bigger than the X3 Torus. Or fatter to be precise.

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Re: Is Torus level actually inside Torus model?

Post by CBJ » Thu, 22. Apr 21, 13:30

The Torus interior is really inside the Torus exterior, and in fact only takes up a small proportion of the available space.

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Re: Is Torus level actually inside Torus model?

Post by mr.WHO » Thu, 22. Apr 21, 13:41

CBJ wrote:
Thu, 22. Apr 21, 13:30
The Torus interior is really inside the Torus exterior, and in fact only takes up a small proportion of the available space.
Nice! Usually developers take a shortcut and split exterior and interior to two separate instances, so when interior and exterior models actually align that is really impressive!

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Re: Is Torus level actually inside Torus model?

Post by ADMNtek » Thu, 22. Apr 21, 14:27

yea it is definitely inside. because when i flew to it i could see the interior being rendered before the exterior.

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Re: Is Torus level actually inside Torus model?

Post by paraskous » Thu, 22. Apr 21, 15:06

CBJ wrote:
Thu, 22. Apr 21, 13:30
The Torus interior is really inside the Torus exterior, and in fact only takes up a small proportion of the available space.
Yea, I thought so. It does seem bigger in the inside - Probably due to the change into space suit frequently.

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Re: Is Torus level actually inside Torus model?

Post by chip56 » Thu, 22. Apr 21, 15:16

paraskous wrote:
Thu, 22. Apr 21, 15:06
CBJ wrote:
Thu, 22. Apr 21, 13:30
The Torus interior is really inside the Torus exterior, and in fact only takes up a small proportion of the available space.
Yea, I thought so. It does seem bigger in the inside - Probably due to the change into space suit frequently.
probably also because your speed is capped at 45 or so.

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Re: Is Torus level actually inside Torus model?

Post by CBJ » Thu, 22. Apr 21, 15:16

The much slower speed of movement is likely to be one thing that makes it feel bigger, indeed.

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Re: Is Torus level actually inside Torus model?

Post by af_2017 » Thu, 22. Apr 21, 15:19

The feel of scale is a real problem in space games.
Why?
Because our mind accepts scale using known references. For example when you see child, you know what size it should be, when you see tree near child you can understand size of the tree because you know size of the child and so on.
Another sample, when people do photos of some miniatures they put some known object near for reference, because when you see car you know what real size of it but when you see lets say razor blade near it which is twice bigger then you understand that the car is perfectly done miniature...

Let's get back to the space games: there are no known objects. Literally. We've never seen space stations, space ships and planets are just balls of different sizes which we cannot accept/understand.
That's for flat images.
Using two eyes (VR?) can help to solve the problem .
X4 is not a destination. It's a journey. Unfortunately in a wrong direction.

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Re: Is Torus level actually inside Torus model?

Post by Wraith_Magus » Thu, 22. Apr 21, 19:44

af_2017 wrote:
Thu, 22. Apr 21, 15:19
The feel of scale is a real problem in space games.
Why?
Because our mind accepts scale using known references. For example when you see child, you know what size it should be, when you see tree near child you can understand size of the tree because you know size of the child and so on.
Another sample, when people do photos of some miniatures they put some known object near for reference, because when you see car you know what real size of it but when you see lets say razor blade near it which is twice bigger then you understand that the car is perfectly done miniature...

Let's get back to the space games: there are no known objects. Literally. We've never seen space stations, space ships and planets are just balls of different sizes which we cannot accept/understand.
That's for flat images.
Using two eyes (VR?) can help to solve the problem .
Well, the Moon looks bigger when it's near the horizon for the same reason. When you see it at a high angle in the sky, it's just the size of the absolute amount of space it takes up in your vision, and looks small. When it's low to the sky, and you can see it near the horizon, your brain can do calculations on how much greater distance there is with that binocular vision, and determine that it's even more beyond the range of calculation than those mountains in the distance, so the Moon must be truly huge.

Hence, I'm not sure VR would even help. The natural range-finding of human binocular vision works best at ranges of a couple hundred feet or less, and 1 km is "short range" in X4. (Early range-finders for naval ships in the late 19th and early 20th centuries were just like periscopes that went in two different directions for each eye to effectively set the eyes further apart and give better accuracy at long range.) EVERYTHING is outside the effective range of your ability to measure except the interiors of cockpits, because humans were never built to handle these kinds of ranges, as they were never built to handle many aspects of space.

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Re: Is Torus level actually inside Torus model?

Post by paraskous » Thu, 22. Apr 21, 19:48

Wraith_Magus wrote:
Thu, 22. Apr 21, 19:44
...

Well, the Moon looks bigger when it's near the horizon for the same reason. When you see it at a high angle in the sky, it's just the size of the absolute amount of space it takes up in your vision, and looks small. When it's low to the sky, and you can see it near the horizon, your brain can do calculations on how much greater distance there is with that binocular vision, and determine that it's even more beyond the range of calculation than those mountains in the distance, so the Moon must be truly huge.
...
I thought that was some atmospheric lensing effect.

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Re: Is Torus level actually inside Torus model?

Post by -=SiR KiLLaLoT=- » Thu, 22. Apr 21, 20:00

CBJ wrote:
Thu, 22. Apr 21, 15:16
The much slower speed of movement is likely to be one thing that makes it feel bigger, indeed.
This could be the key to having the effect of great things...
X4 flaws a little on this, there is a visual difference between when I use the spacesuit and when I drive a ship, but my eyes are always the same.
On X Rebirth the "giant" effect was much more realistic and I think the problem with X4 is its "default speed".
Maybe it could get better with being able to slightly tweak the player's POV, but that wouldn't be fixed entirely...

Maybe take it as a suggestion ;)
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Re: Is Torus level actually inside Torus model?

Post by Raptor34 » Thu, 22. Apr 21, 21:40

Wraith_Magus wrote:
Thu, 22. Apr 21, 19:44
af_2017 wrote:
Thu, 22. Apr 21, 15:19
The feel of scale is a real problem in space games.
Why?
Because our mind accepts scale using known references. For example when you see child, you know what size it should be, when you see tree near child you can understand size of the tree because you know size of the child and so on.
Another sample, when people do photos of some miniatures they put some known object near for reference, because when you see car you know what real size of it but when you see lets say razor blade near it which is twice bigger then you understand that the car is perfectly done miniature...

Let's get back to the space games: there are no known objects. Literally. We've never seen space stations, space ships and planets are just balls of different sizes which we cannot accept/understand.
That's for flat images.
Using two eyes (VR?) can help to solve the problem .
Well, the Moon looks bigger when it's near the horizon for the same reason. When you see it at a high angle in the sky, it's just the size of the absolute amount of space it takes up in your vision, and looks small. When it's low to the sky, and you can see it near the horizon, your brain can do calculations on how much greater distance there is with that binocular vision, and determine that it's even more beyond the range of calculation than those mountains in the distance, so the Moon must be truly huge.

Hence, I'm not sure VR would even help. The natural range-finding of human binocular vision works best at ranges of a couple hundred feet or less, and 1 km is "short range" in X4. (Early range-finders for naval ships in the late 19th and early 20th centuries were just like periscopes that went in two different directions for each eye to effectively set the eyes further apart and give better accuracy at long range.) EVERYTHING is outside the effective range of your ability to measure except the interiors of cockpits, because humans were never built to handle these kinds of ranges, as they were never built to handle many aspects of space.
For me all the S class ships look positively tiny.
And then you land and walk out.
Same for M class but worse.
Even an Asgard looks small sometimes.

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Re: Is Torus level actually inside Torus model?

Post by CBJ » Thu, 22. Apr 21, 21:48

-=SiR KiLLaLoT=- wrote:
Thu, 22. Apr 21, 20:00
This could be the key to having the effect of great things...
X4 flaws a little on this, there is a visual difference between when I use the spacesuit and when I drive a ship, but my eyes are always the same.
Unfortunately, as with other possible solutions such as changing the FoV, this has negative side-effects. I'm pretty sure the complaints would outweigh the positive feedback if we slowed all the ships down enough to make a noticeable difference, for example. :)

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Re: Is Torus level actually inside Torus model?

Post by -=SiR KiLLaLoT=- » Thu, 22. Apr 21, 21:57

CBJ wrote:
Thu, 22. Apr 21, 21:48
-=SiR KiLLaLoT=- wrote:
Thu, 22. Apr 21, 20:00
This could be the key to having the effect of great things...
X4 flaws a little on this, there is a visual difference between when I use the spacesuit and when I drive a ship, but my eyes are always the same.
Unfortunately, as with other possible solutions such as changing the FoV, this has negative side-effects. I'm pretty sure the complaints would outweigh the positive feedback if we slowed all the ships down enough to make a noticeable difference, for example. :)
I played a lot on XR and in that chapter there was something different that gave me a better reality effect.
I had always imagined that "the ideal" on a hypothetical X4, would have been to apply a travel mode (as it was done) with the speed of the yellow hyperways (as in the X Rebirth sector).
Wouldn't it have given a more real effect to "accelerate" the travel speed by a lot, but to keep the cruising speed "slower", increasing the average size of the sectors?

Anyway thanks for the clarification ;)
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