Ego... you're forcing me to crush the FRF... and i don't wanna

[dtpsprt]

@OP, pretty sure your being faced with this dilemma is the intent of the dynamics in that part of the universe. Can't confirm for sure since i didn't design it, but this is an expected result of those dynamics and i can say that those dynamics were very deliberately designed and fleshed-out. If any other solution presented itself, such as in the aforementioned Patriarchy route, the dilemma wouldn't exist.

That's pretty much a bummer, because in future playthroughs I'll never side with the Curbs again. There is just no long term benefit for it if eventually, just through defending my own assets, I'm going to always have FAF terrorizing my ships with Rattlesnakes and Dragon Raiders. That's an easy choice now to just avoid EVER helping the Curbs again. Which sucks... because that means I'll have to side with ZYA, or just avoid that storyline completely.... which is a terrible choice.

There needs to be some kind of way to work on FAF rep.

No dilemma whatsoever grapedog... One should follow the Split storyline till he/she gets the Cobra (best ship to defang an Asgard) and the other split ships, then let it bee, it's not paying anything, just like the Paraanid plot... If you want plots that are interesting (and not demanding useless tons of resources and money just to "stretch" them just a bit timewise) you follow the CoH ones... they are really in line with the X Universe we all knew (and loved it's plots)...

[darkstar12]

I just increase my Reputation Standing with FAF to avoid this. then sell them Rattlesnake destroyers so they can destroy the ships of the other factions that my shipyard produces

[Midnitewolf]

I really don't wanna wipe the Free Families off the map.... but if I can't find a way to put a stop to FAF Dragon Raider pirates, I'm going to have to do just that. I already have a battle group camping right on top of the L fabrication bay at their shipyard, instantly murdering any FAF Rattlesnakes that get built... but the dragon raiders, slippery little bastards that they are, slip away quite quickly before I'm always able to turn them into stardust.

If I have to destroy an entire faction, to stop the pirates that they so nonchalantly produce... I'll do it.

But I'd really appreciate more alternatives.

Actually I feel your pain. The scripted nature of so much of the diplomacy and conflict in this game really puts a major crimp on trying to use your own imagination to create fun and exciting scenarios.

For example I was so frustrated yesterday because I did the Terran Cadet start with the intention of claiming the neutral sector of Getsu Fune as my own. I immediately jumped on, rushed around doing everything to get money and rep ASAP, got the blueprints for the admin center and defensive modules and rushed over the claim the system only to find out I couldn't because that sector is integral to the Story.

Slowly but surely I am starting to realize that they game I though was a Sandbox, either isn't a Sandbox or the Developers forgot to add the sand.

At the end of the day, I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY want a Sandbox mode for this game. One without the stories, without the scripted events and conflicts and without all the limitation this implies. I want dynamic wars, meaningful territory control and the ability to CREATE MY OWN LORE AND STORY completely separate from any and all other considerations. God I want this version of the game SO, SO BADLY.

You can claim Getsine fune just fine, the story missions have nothing to do with it. Not sure why this is a complaint?

I am going to include what I am referring to in a spoiler because it does have to do with the Story Line mission.

Spoiler

Show

Getsue Fune starts off as an unclaimed sector, however, very early in the story, your flying out to Terra's brand new Admin Center just built in Getsue Fune and you will now find that the sector is fully claimed by the Terran Protectorate. Antigone also will build a Admin center and contest it as well. Basically it is a scripted event that sets up the entire story line for the Terran Cadet arc. Therefore the only way for me to Claim it is now going to war with the Terran Protectorate.

Basically the problem I have is that much of what is going on in the galaxy is a scripted event. The conflicts are all scripted and locked. The Terran Protectorate for example is never going to decide to rid the galaxy of Aliens and declare war the the Paranid, Teladi and Split, I can't "arrange" that to happen. The entire galaxy operates according to one big unchanging script that prevents you from being able to craft your own scripts leading to infinite outcomes. This ability to create your own scripts and have the galaxy be a living, breathing, unpredictable thing with unlimited possibilities is pretty much a requirement for a game to be considered a Sandbox. The fact that the game is not designed this way, severely limits any sort of Sandbox experience you might have.

For the game to be a sandbox, the scripted stories did to disappear. They need to give you a starting point, nothing more an then let the game play out as it will. Wars need to be Dynamic and the player needs to be able to take part in those wars by joining/allying with a faction or starting their own wars.. There needs to be diplomacy options so that once objectives are met, you can sit down at the peace table and come up with a truce to end hostilities. Territory control has to be meaningful, not just a colored border around the sector. There has to be actually reasons why taking a sector matters like being able to take a choke point to force other factions to pay tariffs or prevent them from moving goods. You need to be able to take stations rather than just having to destroy them all, basically it just needs to be actually meaningful to hold territory in the game.

These are key elements for a Sandbox game, X4, from the outside, looks like a Sandbox and even functions like a Sandbox, right up until the scripted stories, lore and lack of those mechanics I listed above causes you to run right smack into a brick wall. That is why I really wish this game had a TRUE sandbox mod, one separate from story and future lore or what is "supposed" to happen in the Galaxy as time moves on. Then the game would finally be amazing.

[Virtualaughing]

Add two Katanas as escorts to each trader. Dragon raider will die in a fire to those.

You don't even have to do that. Just make sure that the escorts has the same home base as the traders. The manager will send out protection.
However they will attack xenon base and other threats on the way mindlessly.

[Raptor34]

Add two Katanas as escorts to each trader. Dragon raider will die in a fire to those.

You don't even have to do that. Just make sure that the escorts has the same home base as the traders. The manager will send out protection.
However they will attack xenon base and other threats on the way mindlessly.

Ignoring that part about attacking Xenons, does setting them as defend for the home station even work? I thought it was one of those things that sounds nice in theory but works badly in practise.

[paraskous]

You know the annoying thing when you have traders in uhm, Lasting Vengeance and 3 HOP Oddy's turn SCA Oddy's?
Yeah.
It was annoying.

Also at the time I had nothing to shoot an Oddy dead. Against Minotaurs and other smaller raiders it's easy to scan them -> get the real party revealed -> kill them with (apparently) no reputation lost on the "hiding" faction. However killing Oddies is not fun when the heaviest ship you have is a Katana.

As if FAF rattlesnakes aren't bad enough, having SCA destroyers *all over the place* is even more annoying.

They do? Will go hunting for some...

BTW, the first thing a player should do (OK among the first) is bag some 3-4 Minotaur Raiders to have as a "Boarding Fleet" so SCA (and even FAF later) Destroyers are fully boardable...

I have to admit I have 0 boarded ships.
....

Me neither. It just doesn't work out and I can't faff around with it any more. Tried getting a Rattlesnake for the story but they are full of veterans. Once tried with a Frigate to board a L freighter. And that had 120 crew...
Apparently the system was reworked but I don't get it. I saw people change options but I can't change them and my ships keep killing the targets. Or it has some fat cannons and my ships are crushed very fast. I just don't understand it. Did it quite a lot in X3 - but not in X4.
Is also there misses a ship class between M and L. A real frigate.

[Len5]

Do the FAF build ships anywhere else than in FRF wharfs and shipyards? If they don't I can easily handle it without having a problem with the FRF.

I never really bothered with the FAF, but because of their attacks on my ships over time rep with them has dropped to -25 and now they start to rattle all my stuff.
I have a station in Heart of Acrimony 2 where there's a shipyard and a wharf and I saw them pushing out a lot of FAF ships that attacked my station and its ships.
I decided to build a defence platform around the wharf. You know, place a 1x1x1 plot right against the wharf plot and extend it out into it by about 15km so you can build defence modules around the ship building module and destroy every FAF ship coming out. I think I'll be expanding my station there to produce more ship tech soon.
So if that's the only place FAF are getting there ships from, it'll be no problem at all and it even could make me a lot of extra space cash.

[flywlyx]

I think there is some misunderstanding between you and your future business partner.
You could find FAF tasks in FRF stations, it is rare, so maybe you won't really enjoy this solution.

[grapedog]

Do the FAF build ships anywhere else than in FRF wharfs and shipyards? If they don't I can easily handle it without having a problem with the FRF.

I never really bothered with the FAF, but because of their attacks on my ships over time rep with them has dropped to -25 and now they start to rattle all my stuff.
I have a station in Heart of Acrimony 2 where there's a shipyard and a wharf and I saw them pushing out a lot of FAF ships that attacked my station and its ships.
I decided to build a defence platform around the wharf. You know, place a 1x1x1 plot right against the wharf plot and extend it out into it by about 15km so you can build defence modules around the ship building module and destroy every FAF ship coming out. I think I'll be expanding my station there to produce more ship tech soon.
So if that's the only place FAF are getting there ships from, it'll be no problem at all and it even could make me a lot of extra space cash.

Yes, only FRF build FAF ships. So you can destroy them... park a fleet that attacks the rattlesnake. You still need an alert set though because if they change identity mid fight your ships can lose their attack order and let the Rattlesnake escape. Hack them... essentially rendering the entire Shipyard for FRF a giant paperweight. I hate this option, but there are no good options for dealing with the FAF intelligently. You can also just destroy the shipyards... also a nuclear option, but again, with shit-all for actual good options, the only thing left are bad options.

Typically now, I just use the custom game start and set SCA and FAF to like 10, and then never worry about them. We'll see how the pirate DLC works and if there are actual methods to work on relationships.

[Len5]

I think there is some misunderstanding between you and your future business partner.
You could find FAF tasks in FRF stations, it is rare, so maybe you won't really enjoy this solution.

Rare? I built the defence platform around the wharf just because of all the FAF ships coming out of it that immediately attacked my property in that sector.
Since I started building that defence station a couple of hundred ships came out of that wharf and maybe 3 rattlenakes out of the shipyard, all trying to destroy the defence under construction.
Now that the station is finished, the production of FAF fighters has stopped, probably because of a shortage of weapon components.
I'll try to deliver more of the wanted wares and see if it starts up again and then build the wares myself in that sector.

So if that wharf and shipyard are the only stations producing ships for FAF, I think I'm good. I'm even better, because of all the extra tech I'll sell.

[Len5]

Yes, only FRF build FAF ships. So you can destroy them... park a fleet that attacks the rattlesnake. You still need an alert set though because if they change identity mid fight your ships can lose their attack order and let the Rattlesnake escape. Hack them... essentially rendering the entire Shipyard for FRF a giant paperweight. I hate this option, but there are no good options for dealing with the FAF intelligently. You can also just destroy the shipyards... also a nuclear option, but again, with shit-all for actual good options, the only thing left are bad options.

Typically now, I just use the custom game start and set SCA and FAF to like 10, and then never worry about them. We'll see how the pirate DLC works and if there are actual methods to work on relationships.

Forgot about the ID switch. But I've got a Rattlesnake with Terran shields waiting next to the shipyard for the FAF Rattlesnakes coming out. Already have an alert for FAF L's since they hit -25.

I do want to keep FRF as friendlies.

edit: I don't know the standings between the FAF and the FRF, but could I provoke a war between them by lowering their rep with each other?
Maybe engaging FAF Rattlesnakes near the shipyard and try to make them hit it with their turrets, so the shipyard will retaliate and just repeat that? Is that possible?

[grapedog]

Yes, only FRF build FAF ships. So you can destroy them... park a fleet that attacks the rattlesnake. You still need an alert set though because if they change identity mid fight your ships can lose their attack order and let the Rattlesnake escape. Hack them... essentially rendering the entire Shipyard for FRF a giant paperweight. I hate this option, but there are no good options for dealing with the FAF intelligently. You can also just destroy the shipyards... also a nuclear option, but again, with shit-all for actual good options, the only thing left are bad options.

Typically now, I just use the custom game start and set SCA and FAF to like 10, and then never worry about them. We'll see how the pirate DLC works and if there are actual methods to work on relationships.

Forgot about the ID switch. But I've got a Rattlesnake with Terran shields waiting next to the shipyard for the FAF Rattlesnakes coming out. Already have an alert for FAF L's since they hit -25.

I do want to keep FRF as friendlies.

edit: I don't know the standings between the FAF and the FRF, but could I provoke a war between them by lowering their rep with each other?
Maybe engaging FAF Rattlesnakes near the shipyard and try to make them hit it with their turrets, so the shipyard will retaliate and just repeat that? Is that possible?

I've no concrete idea how NPC to NPC faction works and if it can be adjusted. I know story states can affect it, but I don't know if otherwise they'll "lose rep" with each other over incidents. Someone who knows how/what to look for in the game files would probably have to hazard an answer to that one.

One story beat does change this a little.... story spoiler

Spoiler

Show

if you side with ZYA against the Curbs, they take over some of the FRF sectors, and FRF shipbuilding ability is reduced... and if FRF shipbuilding is reduced, so is FAF.

[NightmareNight91]

sca and faf is annoying agreeing with you i found sca shipyard and have parked an asguard there to handle the situation.

It's Asgard, not assguard! Not rear guard, not bulbuous behind guard. ASGARD

Ill pronounce assgard wrong on purpose now.

[Exitialis101]

sca and faf is annoying agreeing with you i found sca shipyard and have parked an asguard there to handle the situation.

It's Asgard, not assguard! Not rear guard, not bulbuous behind guard. ASGARD

Ill pronounce assgard wrong on purpose now.

Assguard, the ship to protect your rear! It is a fitting name since it usually sits very far away from the action.

[flywlyx]

Rare? I built the defence platform around the wharf just because of all the FAF ships coming out of it that immediately attacked my property in that sector.
Since I started building that defence station a couple of hundred ships came out of that wharf and maybe 3 rattlenakes out of the shipyard, all trying to destroy the defence under construction.

So if that wharf and shipyard are the only stations producing ships for FAF, I think I'm good. I'm even better, because of all the extra tech I'll sell.

FAF task is rare, not ships.
But since you are at -30 with FAF, I don't think you have the chance to develop them as a business partner any more, it is a pitiful loss for the universe. This whole universe lives on wars.

[gorman2040]

I know it won't help much with the issue but it makes sense lore wise.
It says in the encyclopedia that they live on their military prowess so you would expect them to be good at raiding.
I've been to -30 with them as well and loosing ships but I still think this is valid according to the lore, what can you do about a group that just want to plunder your ships?
Granted the escort system might not always work well or require manual intervention.

It's probably one of those things you can't control and just have to deal with.
I don't believe they can significantly reduce your income and you can always put patrols and associated deterrence, I believe it is an interesting way to try a lot of features in the game (mines, laser towers, different ship patrols, etc...)

[Pesanur]

I know it won't help much with the issue but it makes sense lore wise.
It says in the encyclopedia that they live on their military prowess so you would expect them to be good at raiding.
I've been to -30 with them as well and loosing ships but I still think this is valid according to the lore, what can you do about a group that just want to plunder your ships?
Granted the escort system might not always work well or require manual intervention.

It's probably one of those things you can't control and just have to deal with.
I don't believe they can significantly reduce your income and you can always put patrols and associated deterrence, I believe it is an interesting way to try a lot of features in the game (mines, laser towers, different ship patrols, etc...)

But then, the rep need to be locked, what is the point that you lose rep with then but cannot re-gain it?
And yes, I read about some people claiming that you can found FAF missions in FRF stations by scanning them, but for much that I scanned FRF stations, I'm not found a single FAF offered mission, I only get civilian, criminal, HAT and SCA missions by this way.

[gorman2040]

But then, the rep need to be locked, what is the point that you lose rep with then but cannot re-gain it?
And yes, I read about some people claiming that you can found FAF missions in FRF stations by scanning them, but for much that I scanned FRF stations, I'm not found a single FAF offered mission, I only get civilian, criminal, HAT and SCA missions by this way.

It's annoying for sure, but imagine a faction of dreaded pirates, they won't mind you too much if you run away or comply with plundering.
If you start returning fire and destroying their ships though, they might want to escalate just because they have a reputation to keep. How would they look dangerous if one organization is able to attack them without too much trouble?
I think there might also be something to mitigate those attacks in the near future but we'll see, probably when Tides of Avarice is released.

As for the missions, I have the same observation as you, never saw any mission from them and what others claimed was never backed by save or screenshot so difficult to believe.
I think the reputation should slowly go back to -5 (they are still pirates after all) when you comply with their plundering. It would simulate them forgetting about you

[Waltz9]

If they sneak past your patrol at the shipyard/warf you could bate them.
Add a ship with full cargo in your fleet and hope they go and attack it.
Like this they go straigth towards your guarding fleet instead of sneaking away.

Use their behavior against them.

[Imperial Good]

In the current form FAF really should have their reputation locked similar to SCA. Reasoning being that like the SCA, they are not organised into a coherent government and instead every FAF pilot pretty much acts by themselves.

If FAF were to be expanded (which is unlikely due to being part of a finished DLC), then I would suggest some sort of intimidation mechanic where if you blow up enough of them they become less hostile and leave you alone due to your reputation being respected among FAF. Possibly even "duel" missions where you pick a similar class of ship and have to 1v1 a FAF pilot to earn respect and fear among all the pilots. This would fit in with the pirate theme of the current DLC quite well, but unfortunately is part of Split Vendetta.