M Class Plasma Turrets do not engage S-Class Fighter

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Silly Monkie
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Re: M Class Plasma Turrets do not engage S-Class Fighter

Post by Silly Monkie » Fri, 2. Apr 21, 09:43

Apologies, I don't feel this linked post addresses the issues I have raised either. That particular post is a little off the mark in the explanation, at least in how the turrets currently work. You assume there that the M Plasma turrets are not firing because they calculate they cannot hit. But as I have mentioned here several times, they will not even attempt to track or ever fire at small targets when when the target is completely still for extended periods of time. The turrets do not move at all or react to small targets in any way ever on a player piloted ship (unless using the highly problematic Attack My Current Target turret mode). If you assume the rather unlikely scenario that the turrets sometimes fire because the targets happen to fly perfectly into the line of fire of a locked turret... then why not have them track those targets anyway and take those the shots they calculate as plausible to hit? Since this behavior does not apply to NPC piloted ships, and indeed the turrets on those ships will track and fire upon small ships (scoring a decent number of hits over time) how does it make any sense to have this work like this for only the player piloted ship? I mean that's the one time the players should be allowed the best control over their weaponry IMHO.

As has been pointed out, this bug did not exist in earlier version of the game, and is relatively recent. I cannot pinpoint when it changed, but I think this bug was not there when I played in 3.X about a year ago. If removing the hard lock is truly such an unfathomable idea for the detractors then there are other options for implementation. Perhaps a little toggle option in ship commands to have M plasma turrets engage small targets as well? That would satisfy the naysayers here, and give the rest of us what we are asking for :)

I hope the if any devs looks at my posts they will weight my input, as I spent quit a while on the exhaustive exploration of the issue. Thanks for your time :paranid:

Midnitewolf
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Re: M Class Plasma Turrets do not engage S-Class Fighter

Post by Midnitewolf » Fri, 2. Apr 21, 10:27

Aspen McNamara wrote:
Tue, 30. Mar 21, 03:35
This is a lot like asking why an Iowa-class Battleship didn't use its 16 inch main battery at part of its anti-aircraft defense. It's not the weapon for the job. Plasma turrets are all but completely useless against small, fast moving targets. The turret AI is smart enough (weird, I know) to recognize that firing at something it can't hit is a waste of time and power when there may be larger targets to fire at. I'll admit that they perhaps ought to fire if the target is completely stationary, but that may be difficult coding-wise to implement.
Umm. Sorry to pick on your example but I have to. The Yamato had an 18 inch "beehive" round used to engage in the Anti-air capacity so technically....... :P

Still I see it both ways. Just because your not "likely" to hit with plasma, doesn't mean you won't hit every with plasma and I think that is what he is trying to get at. Also hitting or not hitting, it is much more fun and engaging seeing your guns fire and try to hit than just sitting there idle.

Silly Monkie
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Re: M Class Plasma Turrets do not engage S-Class Fighter

Post by Silly Monkie » Thu, 31. Mar 22, 07:05

Sorry to bump up an old thread, but it has been a year since this issue was reported and still no fix. I am hoping to get some fresh eyes on this issue (and pray for a developer to notice). Many of us are still hoping for this fix and are immensely frustrated with the lack of having this option. Thanks for your time.

EDIT: If some modder could help with a fix for this, I would be eternally grateful :oops:
Last edited by Silly Monkie on Thu, 31. Mar 22, 09:54, edited 1 time in total.

paraskous
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Re: M Class Plasma Turrets do not engage S-Class Fighter

Post by paraskous » Thu, 31. Mar 22, 09:45

There is no bug. It works as intended.

Silly Monkie
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Re: M Class Plasma Turrets do not engage S-Class Fighter

Post by Silly Monkie » Thu, 31. Mar 22, 09:58

paraskous wrote:
Thu, 31. Mar 22, 09:45
There is no bug. It works as intended.
No, it does not work as intended. Please read the discussion and explanations I have given earlier. And as was conclusively proven, there is no downside to giving players the OPTION to use M plasmas in this fashion. Players can simply elect to use other turret modes if they do not wish to use it in the discussed manner. Also, there is no reason to exclusively lock out one single type of turret from shooting S ships, as they are all prone to tracking issues and missing. I won't repeat my previous statements, as answers to all objections have been presented. Also, egosoft never said this is working as intended, the linked egosoft post in this thread does not directly address or explain the outlined issue, instead only gives a general statement of opinion and why those turrets might have tracking issues.

P.S. Still looking for any modder who might be able to help with a mod to fix this :)

paraskous
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Re: M Class Plasma Turrets do not engage S-Class Fighter

Post by paraskous » Thu, 31. Mar 22, 10:33

Silly Monkie wrote:
Thu, 31. Mar 22, 09:58
paraskous wrote:
Thu, 31. Mar 22, 09:45
There is no bug. It works as intended.
No, it does not work as intended. Please read the discussion and explanations I have given earlier. And as was conclusively proven, there is no downside to giving players the OPTION to use M plasmas in this fashion. Players can simply elect to use other turret modes if they do not wish to use it in the discussed manner. Also, there is no reason to exclusively lock out one single type of turret from shooting S ships, as they are all prone to tracking issues and missing. I won't repeat my previous statements, as answers to all objections have been presented. Also, egosoft never said this is working as intended, the linked egosoft post in this thread does not directly address or explain the outlined issue, instead only gives a general statement of opinion and why those turrets might have tracking issues.

P.S. Still looking for any modder who might be able to help with a mod to fix this :)
Yes it does. It's perfectly fine.

paraskous
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Re: M Class Plasma Turrets do not engage S-Class Fighter

Post by paraskous » Thu, 31. Mar 22, 10:36

One thing I wonder - and probably no one is reading it in a thread with that amount of tantrum throwing:

How is it handled OoS. Do plasmas become powerful vs fighters?

Alan Phipps
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Re: M Class Plasma Turrets do not engage S-Class Fighter

Post by Alan Phipps » Thu, 31. Mar 22, 12:40

".. the linked egosoft post in this thread does not directly address or explain the outlined issue, instead only gives a general statement of opinion and why those turrets might have tracking issues."

You mean the explanation and comments given by the dev that wrote the turret engagement code? :wink:
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Redwyrm
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Re: M Class Plasma Turrets do not engage S-Class Fighter

Post by Redwyrm » Thu, 31. Mar 22, 16:09

It's likely just fails to track fighter fast enough to fire at them. Especially if you actively moving yourself.

Wouldn't matter anyway, even is plasma turret will shoot - probability of it hitting fighter is very low.

Silly Monkie
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Re: M Class Plasma Turrets do not engage S-Class Fighter

Post by Silly Monkie » Thu, 31. Mar 22, 17:46

Alan Phipps wrote:
Thu, 31. Mar 22, 12:40
".. the linked egosoft post in this thread does not directly address or explain the outlined issue, instead only gives a general statement of opinion and why those turrets might have tracking issues."

You mean the explanation and comments given by the dev that wrote the turret engagement code? :wink:
Did you actually read that linked post and my reply to it? His post explains why turrets might have trouble tracking and not fire because calculations say 0 chance of hit. Sure, but this does NOT explain why they completely lock up and refuse to operate AT ALL when faced with those targets (see my extensive testing results in previous replies). Enemy speed does not matter, even if the S ships slow down to a crawl or completely stop moving for extended periods of time the turrets will not react, hence tracking issues never even come play. Also they work fine in "attack my current target" against S targets (scoring occasional hits), just not other turret modes. Nor does the post explain why only this one particular turret was hit by this specific hindrance, as tracking / missing issues are common to basically all turrets. I am getting tired of explaining these important distinctions. Now, I grant you there is a subtext to his reply that one OUGHT not to use them like that, and there is the line "Debatable whether them flailing about or actually shooting off target would be better than appearing to not try" can be interpreted as "we chose to stop them working at all", but that is open to interpretation. It is not clearly or definitely explained if there was a conscious choice from the devs to hardcode a block to this one specific usage scenario, unless i missed it somewhere else?

I genuinely cannot understand the near absolute, aggressive negativity toward every suggestion of even the slightest change or improvement to the game. As I have tried to explain time and time again, giving players the OPTION to use M plasma in this manner would have no downsides, as anyone not wishing to use them like that can just switch to another turret targeting mode. Again, consider the fact that the M Plasma turrets will be used to engage any nearby hostiles as soon as a NPC pilot takes over, even if the player is still on the bridge, scoring occasional hits even against fast movers. So why not allow the player to use them like that as well?

I have also dived into great detail on the arguments against even the option, which are largely opinions on the usage of plasma in that way, all of which are irrelevant to the possibility of HAVING THE OPTION to use them like that IF YOU SO WISH. For example I addressed the "they will miss a lot" or "the stray shots might hit friendlies" and other common, but largely tangential negative replies. Again, I am repeating myself a lot here, but the short of it is this: Making this change to the game would be welcome to many (yet more people have messaged me agreeing with my request on discord), and would still allow those not wishing to use them in such a way to change turret modes, and therefore not be negatively affected at all. So again, why not make this change? :|

Sorry for my frustrated tone, and my sincerest thanks for anyone sympathetic listening out there in the internets :paranid:

Alan Phipps
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Re: M Class Plasma Turrets do not engage S-Class Fighter

Post by Alan Phipps » Thu, 31. Mar 22, 20:15

What you are still missing is that the dev who replied wrote the relevant code. Hence his 'opinions and interpretations' are exactly what the game was made to do and so yes, ".. there was a conscious choice from the devs to hardcode a block to this one specific usage scenario [in certain circumstances].. " and the devs do not currently see this as an issue. That is not aggressive negativity, it is just a statement of current fact.

Now if you would like him/them to reconsider the circumstances then a reasonable and well-argued case would be entirely appropriate, but obviously with no guarantee of ultimate success either.
A dog has a master; a cat has domestic staff.

j.harshaw
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Re: M Class Plasma Turrets do not engage S-Class Fighter

Post by j.harshaw » Thu, 31. Mar 22, 23:55

I see this discussion has resurfaced again. To be clear, turrets keep track of targets they are allowed to engage even if they do not appear to do so. If there is zero (nil, none, nada, zilch) chance of it hitting a particular target at a given time, the turret skips it in anticipation of other targets coming into view that it might be better suited for. This happens regardless of who is flying the ship. You can force it to focus on a specific target with the corresponding turret mode, that's what that mode was designed for, and it will try and might even score a lucky shot.

I'm not dismissing opinions, neither am I expressing opinions. Simply telling you how it works and why in the hope that it'll inform your decision-making in-game.

I do appreciate that the lack of movement on the turret's part in situations like this make it seem like your settings are ignored. I've also noted that robot vacuum companies have reached the conclusion that people much prefer (and pay very large amounts of money for) automation that they can easily understand even if it isn't as effective. Maybe we'll go the route of easy-to-understand over effective in the future, dunno, we'll see.

Silly Monkie
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Re: M Class Plasma Turrets do not engage S-Class Fighter

Post by Silly Monkie » Tue, 5. Apr 22, 23:49

j.harshaw wrote:
Thu, 31. Mar 22, 23:55
I see this discussion has resurfaced again. To be clear, turrets keep track of targets they are allowed to engage even if they do not appear to do so. If there is zero (nil, none, nada, zilch) chance of it hitting a particular target at a given time, the turret skips it in anticipation of other targets coming into view that it might be better suited for. This happens regardless of who is flying the ship. You can force it to focus on a specific target with the corresponding turret mode, that's what that mode was designed for, and it will try and might even score a lucky shot.

I'm not dismissing opinions, neither am I expressing opinions. Simply telling you how it works and why in the hope that it'll inform your decision-making in-game.

I do appreciate that the lack of movement on the turret's part in situations like this make it seem like your settings are ignored. I've also noted that robot vacuum companies have reached the conclusion that people much prefer (and pay very large amounts of money for) automation that they can easily understand even if it isn't as effective. Maybe we'll go the route of easy-to-understand over effective in the future, dunno, we'll see.
Thank you for the reply. I have tried my absolute best to address every possible aspect and reply to this suggestion. It is a little frustrating to still not have you explicitly confirm the hard lock-out is there in the given scenario, but I have 100% proven it to be the case. I have also endeavored to give many examples, based on extensive testing on M plasma turrets being useful is not perhaps particularly ideal when used in this manner. And then I have also addressed how this change could be implemented in a way that would have zero negative impact, even in the most remote imagined objection scenarios given by detractors. Again, we are talking about a very niche situation minor change to one single turret type in one particular scenario. To clarify one last time: The wished for change is for M plasma turrets on player piloted ships to not be hard-locked out from tracking or engaging S size targets in modes besides "attack my current enemy".

Much thanks for your time and attention.

ADDENDUM: As it is related. I lwould like to point out that "Attack my current enemy" for M plasma behaves VERY strangely, with the turrets constantly flailing about for no apparent reason and firing on enemies 20+ kilometers away.

NightmareNight91
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Re: M Class Plasma Turrets do not engage S-Class Fighter

Post by NightmareNight91 » Fri, 8. Apr 22, 16:37

Plasma can hit AI fighters just fine, the AI loves to do the same attack pattern over and over, fly head on and then fly away and repeat. Makes no sense that the turrets won't shoot at them.

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