[3.3] There seems to be no stopping the Xenon

[jannix]

Heya folks,

I've been having an absolute blast starting a new game a week or so ago. Haven't had a chance to play much in a year or so, so I am slowly learning the ropes it X4. There sure is a lot to learn and enjoy! This game truly captures the feeling I got, back when I first found X2: The Threat, oh so long ago. And compared to then, every system is better. I usually like to build a giant economic empire over time, building up very slowly since I like to take my time with the game. And the sandbox now has proper tools to do so, like an amazing station and complex building system.

I am running into one big problem though. I am about 57 hours into this start in v3.3. I have some miners and some passive income going, but the grand goals of building my space empire are still in the planning phase. But I am noticing the Xenon, especially the capitals (K's and I's) are on a rampage. They are in Hatikva's choice, one jump away from Argon prime. I have only just started exploring the new Split sectors (which are just massive and beautiful. I love it!). But the second time I am visiting, Zyarath's Dominion I is already lost, with most Split stations there destroyed. And I see K's and I's pushed all the way through Open Market sector in my game and is freely attacking the Teladi trade station there. Split, being warlike, don't seem to be even challenging the Xenon capital fleets travelling straight through their home sectors. It feels like the traditional empires of the community of planets are powerless to stop the Xenon's unrelenting assault. This situation does make it difficult for this greedy Teladi to work on his slow expansion plans.

Are there effective counters to Xenon capitals which does not require an already established WAR production chain? A solution involving building 20 destroyers and dropping them in (or some such) wouldn't quite work for me, since I am still a young Teladi eggling, learning the market.

I would rather focus on building an economic backbone of stations, since that peaceful gameplay is what I typically enjoy the most in X games. Very late game (for me, that is several thousand hours in to a start ) I might finally get a bit bored and start building a war machine. At least in my game, it feels I am pressured towards the direction of war, since even homeworlds like Argon prime seem one jump away from a Xenon raiding fleet.

Are there simple solutions I am missing perhaps?

Edit: I should add I am just playing the vanilla game right now, and am looking for a vanilla solution to this problem. I have nothing against MODS (used to run many in my older X game playthroughs). But I prefer to learn the game in the vanilla state without MODS potentially messing up any of the game mechanics.

[Nort The Fragrent]

I have played this game now for an age, and the Xenon at first were rampant and seemed unstoppable !
I kept well out of there way, ignoring them.
I haven't seen an Xenon in months, it seems the more you interact with them the worse they get.
And the more you ignore them, the weaker they get.
To the point of vanishing completely from my game.
I am sure they are hidden away somewhere, but despite my efforts to find them , they seem asleep.
Give it time, and they over stretch them selves, to then fade away.

[pref]

Xenon seem frightening at start, but they all vanished in my game because i was trading with NPCs enough. They are the most fragile faction perhaps, i think no other can be entirely removed so easily without direct player interaction. They have the most enemies player can support.

Don't worry if some stations are destroyed or a couple NPC battleships get killed nothing is lost. Here ZYA was down to 2-3 isolated sectors and now they took all xenon space up north.

Just build up in a safer spot that is not too isolated with the 5 cluster trade limit.

[jannix]

Very interesting. Thanks for your inputs. I will try ignoring the Xenos scum and go about my business and see if they go back to their home sectors eventually in my game.

I tried fighting a few. They are a lot stronger than I remember in older games. They have some teeth. Of course, after getting blown up for the fifth time, I decided I better get back to trading and empire building.

[Malkano]

Gods where is these Xenon!? I have a hard time finding them to kill. I hear stories of Xenon fighting and taking over the split as well as Argon prime. I want these Xenon all I get are scouts and maybe a K. I want to be on the backfoot and having to actually defend!

[duncan idaho]

I had a good 50+ hours of safety but some crossover point has been reached recently and they are invading everywhere, mostly in Free Families territory but they did claim also a sector from the Teladi. I've decided to restore order by force and have started building up a fleet. Currently only 1 destroyer and 10 corvettes but it is good to actually have something to fight for.

[jannix]

Yes, though it was a bit jarring, it definitely gave me an extra thing to plan for. I finally killed a Xenon I after something like 20 failed attempts. Blowing out the engines at long range with my one destroyer (the Oddy Vanguard) at around max range of its front guns made it not able to rush to me and get its guns to hit. Then it was just grinding down its massive shield and hull with only the two forward firing plasma turrets and the main guns on the Oddy.

It worked though. This was very satisfying indeed when I could finally figure out a way.

[omti]

Yes, though it was a bit jarring, it definitely gave me an extra thing to plan for. I finally killed a Xenon I after something like 20 failed attempts. Blowing out the engines at long range with my one destroyer (the Oddy Vanguard) at around max range of its front guns made it not able to rush to me and get its guns to hit. Then it was just grinding down its massive shield and hull with only the two forward firing plasma turrets and the main guns on the Oddy.

It worked though. This was very satisfying indeed when I could finally figure out a way.

That works I guess. But it's way harder than it has to be. I'd suggest to grab a corvette and move behind the I (or K) where it's main turrets can't hit you. Then destroy their small turrets. Once that is done and you're safe behind the ship, shoot its engines. Once that is done you can order your destroyer to attack the I and it'll deplete their shields from safe distance. If the AI is stupid and the ship is shot at you can safely destroy the plasma turrets yourself since they're focussed on your destroyer (shouldn't happen. In most it safely stays out of range). Once the shields are down, I'd destroy the shield generators so they won't regenerate. Boost back to your destroyer and take control of it to shoot down the last bits of hull so you get the money from the police liscence.

[skyneedler9]

Xenon are pushovers.

The Key to the xenon's failure is the same for all AI factions, the same Achilles heel. Keeping pressure, forcing their shipyards to produce and produce, kill their resource pile, they will not have the capabilities to call capital construction because they will be too busy replacing fighters, corvettes transports, and miners. At a point the other factions will overwhelm them and keep killing lesser ships and the xenon will pretty much be stuck in a stalemate of push and pull.

I've seen the pattern and it always has to do with how long the xenon fighter groups can stay alive and fight back so the resources in a shipyard give them a chance to build capitals so they can shove back. Otherwise, if they can't keep their fighters alive long enough to buy time, the ai will end up spending too much time and resources replacing them.

[joeobrien22]

I couldn't do anything about them until I had enough freighters, money, and fleets of destroyers, now I've almost wiped them out.. Best thing to do is build a blockade defence station directly in front of Xenon gates are with a bunch of L plasma turrets. Until it's built you'll have to guard it fiercely though as they will immediately go after it. After that, when you have a good few modded destroyers, you can go in and destroy the two solar power plants in each sector first. After you cripple their production, taking out the other stations is easy enough.
The I's and K's are destroyable with a well executed plan with a smaller ship, but not worth the effort. Better to use a destroyer or 4!
Generally though, until then, bigger factions can usually deal with them somewhat
Quick money in mineral mining!

[darrund]

I came to the conclusion that the game should be renamed in 'Hunt the Xenon" or something.
In my game Xenon took over 2 teladi sectors, 1 FRF sector and right now there is a full scale invasion on another FRF sector with 6 Ks and 2 I's plus 100 more ships of various types and a 3d sector is also infiltrated and there are already 5 Xenon stations in it.
If I decide to deal with it I will have to do nothing other than fighting 24x7 with the xenon and THAT is boring.Whatever happened to "Trade,Build,Think"? especially after 3.30 it seems the xenon went into overdrive.
I am seriously thinking shelving the game again until someone addresses some balance issues.

[pref]

Xenon took over 2 teladi sectors, 1 FRF sector and right now there is a full scale invasion on another FRF sector with 6 Ks and 2 I's plus 100 more ships of various types and a 3d sector is also infiltrated and there are already 5 Xenon stations in it.
If I decide to deal with it I will have to do nothing other than fighting 24x7 with the xenon and THAT is boring.

Why do you care that much? Just let the lizards and split alone, maybe help them later when you feel like wasting some xenon. Build up, defend your own space and when it's convenient enough you can help the other factions if you want to.
It's not a mandatory todo to keep all faction borders fixed.

[Kintanar]

I have a 1300+ hours save since game release, so that means i have lots of resources, money and any ship i can need. I have a strong fleet and a very capable crew (some are since release which means lots of experience, many are 5 stars). At the start Xenons were a joke, just sitting ducks, but updates later they become a real threat. I helped Splits to recover some of their sectors, Teladi's lost Open Market and the entire Hewas Twin sector without even din't moving a finger... or claw.... and i even didn't was there, so Xenon's attack without the player intervention. Paranid's are trying very hard to keep xenons at bay in Hewas Twins. Instead HoP's literally decimated Xenon's at Faulty Logic, Atiya's Misfortune and Frontier Edge and tried to take The Void from Antigone, i needed to intervene to avoid that. At the end, Xenon's are at bay and I just helped a bit other factions to retake their sectors, but now the problem was with HoP's, they want to take all their neighbor sectors, attacking Antigone, Argons and Paranids, so i did the Paranid Plot, reunifying both paranid factions, but the game become very peaceful, my only enemy was Xenon's but at this point the other factions were strong enough to keep xenons at bay, so i found my self with nothing to do, just sitting with my fleet at a gate to a Xenon sector killing everything that comes... and waiting for a new dlc... so i reloaded my save before HaT plot to do it all again to choose not reunification with Paranid, first i fortified Antigone, Argons and Paranids (Not Teldis, they are lazy), and then i did the plot. The results now is that i'm now at a serious war against HoP's and they become worst than Xenon's, they are very capable to send 4-5 fleets against me at the same time, which means 15+ or so Odysseus with missiles and fighters, that is a serious threat, believe me... i will collect a list of paranid taunts shouted against me.... lol

[plynak]

Hello, I just installed the game after two years to test. All was fine, my ships were mining and trading and I was doing occasional missions.
And after a day I got enough to buy a Dragon. But before I could do that, out of sudden, there are Xenon Ps, Ks and Is everywhere.
And the most baffling is that AI does not have anything to stop them. Literaly no ships, no fighters, no corvettes and most definitely no capitals.
From what I have read, this issue had been present for some time, but given the level of Egosoft's incompetence, has not been fixed.
So great job Egosoft, uninstalling again. Two years and the game is still garbage.
And before someone starts that nonesence it is up to me to stop them, no, it is not. All previous games could be played as a trader and magnate if someone wanted to. I do not want to fight hordes of OP ships, just because someone forgot the trade, build and think part.

[oddible]

Hello, I just installed the game after two years to test. All was fine, my ships were mining and trading and I was doing occasional missions.
And after a day I got enough to buy a Dragon. But before I could do that, out of sudden, there are Xenon Ps, Ks and Is everywhere.
And the most baffling is that AI does not have anything to stop them. Literaly no ships, no fighters, no corvettes and most definitely no capitals.
From what I have read, this issue had been present for some time, but given the level of Egosoft's incompetence, has not been fixed.
So great job Egosoft, uninstalling again. Two years and the game is still garbage.
And before someone starts that nonesence it is up to me to stop them, no, it is not. All previous games could be played as a trader and magnate if someone wanted to. I do not want to fight hordes of OP ships, just because someone forgot the trade, build and think part.

Simmer down, relax, be curious why this is happening. This is not a bug, this was asked for by the majority of the community. If you want the Xenon weakened there are mods that can probably help you. Just install them. The whole reason for the modding engine is that there is a HUGE variety of people who play this game and we can all have it exactly the way we want it by modding it to be the way we want to play.

If you are actually curious, the factions will eventually push the Xenon back - sometimes it takes a while and they can lose significant assets in the process. Part of why this was asked for is that it makes the game more dynamic - you may or not like that - that's fine - either mod it or adjust your playstyle. Here's how you can help. Focus your trade on the factions in most need. If you see the Teladi losing Ianamus Zura, pump resources into those TEL/MIN shipyards in Profit Center Alpha and Eighteen Billion. If the TEL/MIN have resources they'll build destroyers and start swarming the Xenon enmasse. If their shipyards are starved they will send in destroyers in a trickle if at all and get them all destroyed. There are GREAT PROFITSSSS in war! From the safety of the center of TEL space you can make a fortune helping them shove back the XEN threat.

Remember 100% of the economy of this game - the part you like - is generated from war. 100%. All of the profits come from replacing lost ships and assets. You want your profits to spike? You need war for that to happen. Kill off all the threats and all factions will max out their stations and fleets and the economy comes to a standstill.

This is just like the old "why won't wharfs build my ship, it's a bug! damn you Egosoft!!!" rant from release. It isn't a bug, it is the core mechanic of the economy. Play with it! Have fun!

[GCU Grey Area]

someone forgot the trade, build and think part.

No one forgot Trade, Build or Think. They're some of the best bits of X4, particularly the queued ordering system for setting up multiple trade runs for a freighter fleet & the stuff you can build would have been simply unimaginable in any of the old games. Used to think some of the complexes I built for the TC Hub plot were pretty big, now they seem tiny in comparison to the stuff I've built in X4 (generally without the <1fps slideshow I usually ended up with in TC as well).

Also oddible is absolutely right about the impact Trade & Build can have on how AI factions will perform against the Xenon & rival factions. Trade with them a lot and/or build stations to support them & they will prosper. No need to fight the Xenon yourself (or anyone else for that matter) if you don't want to. Playing the patriotic industrial magnate, supplying your favourite faction(s) with the stuff they need, is an entirely valid way of playing the game. For example, do like to think my trade fleet & factories contributed a bit to the Teladi being able to build this fleet in my last game:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/39chopkrlh93y ... 1.jpg?dl=0
Couple of dozen destroyers protecting a single sector is nothing to sniff at & they certainly did not have that fleet at the start of the game. Also notable they had far fewer Xenon-related problems from that point on & went on a bit of a rampage through Xenon held territory. Became one of the most expansionistic factions I had in that game.

[bubbabenali]

Very interesting. Thanks for your inputs. I will try ignoring the Xenos scum and go about my business and see if they go back to their home sectors eventually in my game.

That's what I did in my current game.
The outcome: The Split are as good as dead and have no selfcontaining economy anymore - not that they ever started with one...
The other civilisations are on the brink to share the Splits fate.
The Xenon are pumping out teams of 3 Ks and an I every half an hour. And thanks to the abominal power even the K has agains NPC controlled Destroyers an Stations the non-xenon npcs have no chance to recover.
So the whole universe need the player to save their economics and war effords - thats not how a balanced 4X game should run without the player helping out anybody.
If there was some variety in ship classes - like not only giving the xenon two types of carriers one heavy and one super heavy, and everyone else only a light destroyer and a kinda carrier to defend themselfes.

I mean, what is the purpose of the Teladi Phenix? It goes into battle and turns into a wreckage not even a blink of an eye later - and it's one of the more expensive destroyers for good measure.
The Behemoth seems to be an overcompensation of a nerf for the Argons, for getting the All-Around topclass in the last games. Turns out it is less effective than a small wing of Dragons.

[plynak]

someone forgot the trade, build and think part.

No one forgot Trade, Build or Think. They're some of the best bits of X4, particularly the queued ordering system for setting up multiple trade runs for a freighter fleet & the stuff you can build would have been simply unimaginable in any of the old games. Used to think some of the complexes I built for the TC Hub plot were pretty big, now they seem tiny in comparison to the stuff I've built in X4 (generally without the <1fps slideshow I usually ended up with in TC as well).

Also oddible is absolutely right about the impact Trade & Build can have on how AI factions will perform against the Xenon & rival factions. Trade with them a lot and/or build stations to support them & they will prosper. No need to fight the Xenon yourself (or anyone else for that matter) if you don't want to. Playing the patriotic industrial magnate, supplying your favourite faction(s) with the stuff they need, is an entirely valid way of playing the game. For example, do like to think my trade fleet & factories contributed a bit to the Teladi being able to build this fleet in my last game:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/39chopkrlh93y ... 1.jpg?dl=0
Couple of dozen destroyers protecting a single sector is nothing to sniff at & they certainly did not have that fleet at the start of the game. Also notable they had far fewer Xenon-related problems from that point on & went on a bit of a rampage through Xenon held territory. Became one of the most expansionistic factions I had in that game.

O.k. the very first question would be, how am I supposed to trade with them, when my traders are blown to pieces by all those Ks and Is. I am not even mentioning Ps.
Second question would be why I had to use a MOD to even be able to start auto traders and autominers. And no, I am not a masochist to do manual trades.
Third question, why I have not seen a single destroyer except those of Xenons.
And finaly am I supposed to be some kind of messiah? So without me everyone is doomed? I really doubt it. The game should be made in a way so even if I decide to sit, watch and do nothing, the AI would have a chance against Xenon. Player's input should just increase the odds.
So yes, the game IS broken. Now even more than two years ago. That alone is an accomplishment. Just read this thread or type X4 Xenon too strong.

[dtpsprt]

O.k. the very first question would be, how am I supposed to trade with them, when my traders are blown to pieces by all those Ks and Is. I am not even mentioning Ps.
Second question would be why I had to use a MOD to even be able to start auto traders and autominers. And no, I am not a masochist to do manual trades.
Third question, why I have not seen a single destroyer except those of Xenons.
And finaly am I supposed to be some kind of messiah? So without me everyone is doomed? I really doubt it. The game should be made in a way so even if I decide to sit, watch and do nothing, the AI would have a chance against Xenon. Player's input should just increase the odds.
So yes, the game is broken. Just read this thread or type X4 Xenon too strong.

Maybe it's too late in your savegame for this, but one should first start trade with the factions and this way start building his/hers "empire" and the factions capability to wage war (it's what moves the economy). And I mean all the factions, no mistake on that.

The PHQ is put in the middle of the map for a reason. It has access to all the factions without crossing through dangerous territories (at least dangerous in the beginning).

A good trade (since what you trade on is of small significance) is Nividium. Strange as it may seem you can trade Nividium and see the factions "beef up"... The only factions that does not buy (therefore uses) are the two Paranid, but I think we can all agree they are the ones that need the less babysitting...

The Xenon do have formidable capital ships but they have a weakness... They are completely dependent on their S ships, because the only resources they need are Ore, Silicon and Energy. As they pump out their fighters from their shipyards, just scoop up as many S as you can from the surrounding sectors (they are never escorted!!!), or even the Xenon sectors themselves as they wonder away from the (guarded) gates to collect resources. Job done!!! The AI will not (can not?) cancel the existing orders to build more S and they run out of resources before reaching the S orders (that, of course come after the capital, P, M and N orders)... Attrition will run it's course...

[jlehtone]

I am not a masochist to do manual trades.

The game should be made in a way so even if I decide to sit, watch and do nothing, the AI would have a chance against Xenon. Player's input should just increase the odds.

You don't want to (A) fight or (B) trade, but just (C) start an automaton that ticks forever?

X3 factions had "a chance". Nothing they made, made a difference. Nothing the player did made a difference. X4 is praised for its "dynamics".


A "noob" miner can automine one resource and sell it to local factories. Some say that you want many of them.

Trading Station has apparently replaced Auto-Trader as the "go to" trade automaton.

The Xenon are not "strong". They are pathetic weaklings, just like everyone else.