Why have you guys traded metal for plastic?

[BlackRain]

I like the new ships just fine. I just wish there were many more of them. That is the only thing I find a pity.

[Imperial Good]

I think the reason is because the paints applied to the surface are meant to be plastic in some cases? As opposed to the largely unpainted or poorly painted ships of X3.

In X4 Some paint jobs look more metallic than others.

[linolafett]

Lordmuck, if you think this here is not insulting, then i really dont get your way of having a conversation.

Because they found a pen drive of some students assignment in his/her first year of 3d game modelling course and decided to use this crap :/ [...]"

Having an opinion and voicing it is one thing, pushing down everyone involved and comparing with beginners of ones craft is not cool.

The thread started with a question about the metallness of ships and derailed into a ship bashing session.
Been there, done that.

I am confident, that the upcoming ships are better recieved.

EDIT:
Yes @Imperial God, teladi paintjobs are in general less metallic compared to argon or paranid ships.

[surferx]

I like the new ships just fine. I just wish there were many more of them. That is the only thing I find a pity.

There are expansions coming. Certainly this means more new ships.

[surferx]

Lordmuck, if you think this here is not insulting, then i really dont get your way of having a conversation.

Because they found a pen drive of some students assignment in his/her first year of 3d game modelling course and decided to use this crap :/ [...]"

Having an opinion and voicing it is one thing, pushing down everyone involved and comparing with beginners of ones craft is not cool.

The thread started with a question about the metallness of ships and derailed into a ship bashing session.
Been there, done that.

I am confident, that the upcoming ships are better recieved.

EDIT:
Yes @Imperial God, teladi paintjobs are in general less metallic compared to argon or paranid ships.

There is a group of players who want to push their agenda that X3 (after years of fixes, expansions, refinements and polish) is better than Foundations. Even unfinished, X4 is the better game by a mile.

[linolafett]

There is a group of players who want to push their agenda that X3 (after years of fixes, expansions, refinements and polish) is better than Foundations. Even unfinished, X4 is the better game by a mile.

It doesnt have to be an agenda, just a personal preference and this is totally fine.

[surferx]

There is a group of players who want to push their agenda that X3 (after years of fixes, expansions, refinements and polish) is better than Foundations. Even unfinished, X4 is the better game by a mile.

It doesnt have to be an agenda, just a personal preference and this is totally fine.

That's fair enough. Posting first thing in the morning before coffee, not a good idea.
[Edit] Sticking to my 2nd comment tho.. That's my preference.

[radcapricorn]

[Edit] Sticking to my 2nd comment tho.. That's my preference.

You can stick to it all you want, it won't change the fact that X3 is way more appreciated than X4. Just check stats on Steam and GoG. So your miles seem to be negative

[BlackRain]

[Edit] Sticking to my 2nd comment tho.. That's my preference.

You can stick to it all you want, it won't change the fact that X3 is way more appreciated than X4. Just check stats on Steam and GoG. So your miles seem to be negative

In my opinion, this really isn't a fair comparison. Again, which version of X3 are you talking about? If you want to compare X3 to X4, we should look at the original version of X3 vanilla. Not TC, not AP and not with mods.

The original version of X3 was superior in some ways, but inferior in others. The things that were superior however, are those things which we will most likely see in X4 in the future. On the flip side, the things superior in X4 you will never see in X3. Things like more ships, more diversity with factions, more factions, more sectors, etc that make X3 superior are all things which will eventually be in X4. The only thing I am concerned about with this is the weapon and other equipment diversity. Not sure if we will see a huge change here in X4 but I hope so.

I don't really see what people think is so much better about X3 though. At the core of both games, things haven't changed much except that X4 has gone even further. What is really different from the original X3 vanilla and the X4 as it is now other than the things I already mentioned? I think people are really just looking back with rose tinted glasses here. Is what made X3 better in your mind the extended development and expansion over the years? Well, again, you shouldn't compare that with X4. Is it because it was more difficult to make money in X3 and you believe this gave a greater sense of accomplishment in the long haul? But then, the whole idea of X3 was to take forever to build up to a certain point and that was the game because once you did build up to that point there was nothing left to do. Whereas in X4, it doesn't take nearly as long to build up, but at least once you do you can take part in actual wars.

Let's discuss because I have been thinking of how I can improve the game through modding.

[MegaJohnny]

I like the new ships just fine. I just wish there were many more of them. That is the only thing I find a pity.

Super agree with this. I don't have many criticisms with X4, and a lot of them boil down to there not being as much "stuff" - sectors/ships/factions/etc, which is bottlenecked by art resource. What there is though, I do like.

[Buzz2005]

This wars should be a constant thing, there should always be some combat in boarder gates/sectors, no down time ever

And the economy of the NPCs should be number 1 focus always on ship building, no down time too.
Waiting for hull parts and engine parts is just wrong and then the capacity for said wares is just to low, and you cant even configure that on your shipyards

putting 4 L container modules and have 2700 capacity for engine parts??? but energy cells is in 270 thousand?

This way the performance should not be an issues bc the ships would die constantly

If some down time happens the enemy moves further

[radcapricorn]

You can stick to it all you want, it won't change the fact that X3 is way more appreciated than X4. Just check stats on Steam and GoG. So your miles seem to be negative

In my opinion, this really isn't a fair comparison. Again, which version of X3 are you talking about? If you want to compare X3 to X4, we should look at the original version of X3 vanilla. Not TC, not AP and not with mods.

First of all, any version of X3 has higher ratings than X4 at the moment. But, regarding the argument itself, it's completely unjustified. No, we shouldn't look at the original version of X3 vanilla. What, did TC and AP never happen or something? Egosoft already went through the process of updating X3, they knew what they did, they knew what they liked and what they didn't, they knew what players liked and what they didn't. Yet you're suggesting to ignore all that, because, well, reasons. By that logic, we shouldn't have ship interiors, walking on stations, we shouldn't have cockpits, crewmen, drones, station planner... None of that was in Reunion, right?

The original version of X3 was superior in some ways, but inferior in others...

I don't really care what the original version of X3 was compared to X4. X4 is supposed to be X4 today, not in 2028.

I don't really see what people think is so much better about X3 though.

It works as it should, much like X4 doesn't at the moment. The moment being version two point freaking five.

But then, the whole idea of X3 was to take forever to build up to a certain point and that was the game because once you did build up to that point there was nothing left to do. Whereas in X4, it doesn't take nearly as long to build up, but at least once you do you can take part in actual wars.

"Actual" wars? Are we playing the same game, or what? What we have in X4 are not wars. Just like in AP, it's a facade. Except that in AP, it was barely passable because it was an obvious slap-on to the engine, but here, it was supposed to be one of core mechanics. Allegedly. Yet, there's no logic behind NPC actions; there are no goals to these wars; factions are running infinite budgets, so pretty much any goals would be irrelevant anyway; there are indestructible stations; there are nonsensical missions which bear no impact on these "wars" whatsoever. Fleet control is a joke. Travel in formation does not exist, any order to wing leader sends its escorts way ahead, or makes them lag behind. Ships sit still. Ships teleport. Ships ignore orders. Ships are "awaiting orders" all the time. Ships leave their AO for a single small target on the other side of a sector. Ships complain of being attacked without giving you any way to immediately respond to it. Drones disappear and magically reappear. Defense stations are actually self-defense stations. Personnel management is forced upon players with no UI for it to speak of. Weapon balance is all over the place. Ship roles are virtually non-existent. Map updates become delayed, or corrupted until restart. Game steals control from you for "thanks" (or buffers those "thanks" until you reload, at which point you sit there for a minute receiving all that delayed gratitude). I can go on, but I'll stop here.
You mentioned rose-tinted glasses, well, there you go. All of the above should not have been in 1.0, let alone 2.5.

[BlackRain]

When X3 came out, or TC, or AP, it was already many years ago. First, the climate of gaming has completely changed. Secondly, X3 was following X2 and X3 brought a completely different experience like none before. Thirdly, those of us playing back then didn't have any other options. Although this hasn’t changed much today, a lot of us have gotten older and changed, especially our tastes and expectations. I have been around way longer than you so I saw all of this and have first hand experience. You clearly came way later and your view/perspective is at a much different time. So you want to compare ratings? Please learn how to argue a point before bringing up nonsense. X3 and its expansions are already many years old and have had considerable time for ratings to come up. Ratings from an already established game with a large fan base over time plus many changes, corrections, add-ons, different time period, different expectations/experiential knowledge of players, etc. can't be used as a comparison to X4 which has none of those aspects I just mentioned.

Let's look at the so called ratings, I assume you mean steam ratings:
Total X4 ratings: 5,571 of which 3,732 are positive and 1,839 are negative. By the way, a lot of those negative reviews are because of bugs at launch or even bugs that still exist in the game and many of them say that X4 has potential if these things are fixed. So even though they are negative, it isn't because they necessarily hate the game or don't see the potential in it.

Total X3 (including all DLC's) ratings on steam: 3,264 of which 2892 are positive and 372 are negative. Keep in mind that for these games many of the reviews from steam were put up around 2 or more years after the games were released. In comparison, many of the X4 ratings came out right after X4 was released and it hasn't even been a year yet.

So how you can use ratings as your argument baffles me. If you can't see the illogical aspects of your argument in regards to this, then there is no point in me discussing with you anymore.

As for a comparison of X3 to X4, yes you should look at the original version. X4 is a brand new game with a different vision from X3. I don't think you get that. X4 is not just an expansion to X3, it is a different engine, different game logic, etc. They can't just take X3 and transpose it into X4. Sure, some of the things could have been included into X4, like more ships, etc. but we all know the reason why we don't have that. Limited budget and time. I have no clue about what you are talking about regarding "Yet you're suggesting to ignore all that". No clue what you are saying I want to ignore. No clue what most of your point is in that nonsense paragraph actually. The only things X3 had that X4 doesn't is more ships, more variety between factions, more factions, more overall sectors (but smaller overall actual game space), etc. These are all things X4 will have eventually. As for bugs, this is because of a completely different engine so saying that just because of "insert here" experience from X3 should alleviate these things, not necessarily. What else did X3 have that X4 doesn't? Because it seems from your post that the only thing is bugs? I agree that bugs should always be fixed.

You don't really care what the original version of X3 was compared to X4? Excellent, good thing I don't care about your argument either (actually non argument). I mean, did you even make an argument other than trashing my opinion and then talk about ratings?

Let's talk about the war. The war in vanilla needs work, but to call it a facade is just a lack of understanding of the code beneath. Since you are not a modder and don't know anything about the code at all, I guess I can understand why you can't see the work put into it. There is logic to how the factions will fight over territory, etc. Sure, it could be more indepth and such, but it isn't bad. The problem is that it just needs to be fixed and improved a bit. Nonetheless, it is there. I use mods (my own plus others) to make this part of the game work correctly and it is fantastic. Most of the other stuff you say is just nitpicking, for example "Ships teleport". No, only under one minor circumstance does this happen. This only happens when dealing with the encounter part of the game which is one of the most minor aspects of the game in my opinion. So again, your use of hyperbole is just ridiculous as you use through most of your posts. Most of the other stuff you say is stuff that will eventually be fixed and work properly which is something I mentioned in my original post as eventually getting there.

As for your last comment, saying something has rose-tinted glasses, perhaps you don't get the phrase. No one is saying the game doesn't have bugs. These are things which can and will be fixed. What I was addressing were the actual game mechanics/ideas/logic behind the games. X4 is superior in many of these aspects. The other things will all come in time. And this is why we absolutely should compare X4 to original X3, because I am pretty confident that X4 will eventually be superior in every way to X3 (bar maybe all the additional things added by mods like litcube's mod, but we may even see those in X4 eventually as well).

Please try to actually bring something to the table other than an emotional rant. Your response to my post (which wasn't even targeted towards you and where I specifically asked for exact elements of how x3 is better and got none) lacked details, lacked an overarching argument (other than ratings), and was quite aggressive without any real substance.

I agree that X4 still needs a lot of work though and needs much more content. This includes ships, factions, sectors, missions, etc.

[adeine]

I think the reason is because the paints applied to the surface are meant to be plastic in some cases? As opposed to the largely unpainted or poorly painted ships of X3.

In X4 Some paint jobs look more metallic than others.

I think it's partially due to the new engine making reflections look bad across large surfaces. Paranid capital ships were basically flying mirrors which looked "ok" with X3's fakey environmental mapping, but try applying a reflective paint job on an X4 Paranid capital ship and turn it so you can see a planet reflected on it. It looks like a pixelated mess.

[Imperial Good]

I think it's partially due to the new engine making reflections look bad across large surfaces. Paranid capital ships were basically flying mirrors which looked "ok" with X3's fakey environmental mapping, but try applying a reflective paint job on an X4 Paranid capital ship and turn it so you can see a planet reflected on it. It looks like a pixelated mess.

I would imagine reflection resolution being controlled by a graphic setting. For example in TES Oblivion, a 2006 game, one could alter the size of the reflection texture. StarCraft II also allows one to do this.

[adeine]

I think it's partially due to the new engine making reflections look bad across large surfaces. Paranid capital ships were basically flying mirrors which looked "ok" with X3's fakey environmental mapping, but try applying a reflective paint job on an X4 Paranid capital ship and turn it so you can see a planet reflected on it. It looks like a pixelated mess.

I would imagine reflection resolution being controlled by a graphic setting. For example in TES Oblivion, a 2006 game, one could alter the size of the reflection texture. StarCraft II also allows one to do this.

I think I have it cranked to maximum.

[dholmstr]

To chip in on Blackrains comment about not comparing X4 to years old with patches and fixes X3 game. But one could argue about why concepts, that were praised and good thing for the game, not to be used again. Many concepts that are not depended on graphics/AI/whatever engine/code.

I actually like the ships in X4. Some I maybe find boring or not to my taste, but that is the way it should be. The "paint job" on X3 ships cannot be compared to the actual physical/mechanical detail levels on X4 ships. I mean my X3/TC Tyr was shooting miniaturized blackholes (which glowed ) from a side window, while the X4 Behemoth has actual turrets that spins around and can be destroyed (sadly to easily for my taste).

What I'm more sad about is the low diversity. All S-ships have 1 or 2 shield slots. That is so boring. Most ships have 2 to 4 guns (only one with 6). This with really dull guns you don't get much to choose from. The problem stems from Egosofts idea to make guns and shieldgenerators so damn big compared to ships hull size, that you just can't fit more to the frame.

[IRONOX]

TBH: We should compare X4 more with X Rebirth.
Even Rebirth doesn´t had the "fly every ship by yourself"-thing, they have many more mechanics in common than X3 with X4.

From the art style point of view i would say that X4 is more "simple" - in terms of unified.
Rebirth had that more vibrant and colorful apperance which gave it a more "pleasent to look at" thingy.
And X4 on the other hand is more bland and grim which made it - as said - look "simple".

I would love to see Egosoft would move X4, art-wise, more in direction of X Rebirth.

[dholmstr]

TBH: We should compare X4 more with X Rebirth.
Even Rebirth doesn´t had the "fly every ship by yourself"-thing, they have many more mechanics in common than X3 with X4.

From the art style point of view i would say that X4 is more "simple" - in terms of unified.
Rebirth had that more vibrant and colorful apperance which gave it a more "pleasent to look at" thingy.
And X4 on the other hand is more bland and grim which made it - as said - look "simple".

I would love to see Egosoft would move X4, art-wise, more in direction of X Rebirth.

This I can go for.

[BlackRain]

To chip in on Blackrains comment about not comparing X4 to years old with patches and fixes X3 game. But one could argue about why concepts, that were praised and good thing for the game, not to be used again. Many concepts that are not depended on graphics/AI/whatever engine/code.

I actually like the ships in X4. Some I maybe find boring or not to my taste, but that is the way it should be. The "paint job" on X3 ships cannot be compared to the actual physical/mechanical detail levels on X4 ships. I mean my X3/TC Tyr was shooting miniaturized blackholes (which glowed ) from a side window, while the X4 Behemoth has actual turrets that spins around and can be destroyed (sadly to easily for my taste).

What I'm more sad about is the low diversity. All S-ships have 1 or 2 shield slots. That is so boring. Most ships have 2 to 4 guns (only one with 6). This with really dull guns you don't get much to choose from. The problem stems from Egosofts idea to make guns and shieldgenerators so damn big compared to ships hull size, that you just can't fit more to the frame.

I agree with you, but could you elaborate more on the concepts which were praised but not used again. I am curious what those are only because I am wondering if there are reasons why they didn't include them in X4 or not. Honestly, I can't think of any of them even though I played X3 extensively, it has been many years. The only thing I can think of off the top of my head is jumpdrive but there are good reasons they took it out. Could you explain some of the other things to refresh my memory?