Carriers make no sense in X4

[kobayashimaru]

Just as the subject says, I think carriers make no sense in this game. And I'm not talking about the bugs that make them completely useless currently. I'm talking about logic.

What is the point of a carrier? Why does it exist? What is the carrier's main purpose? Look at real life examples that these games are based upon. Carrier's purpose is to (surprise, surprise) carry small aircraft to distant locations across the world which, due to large distance from aircraft owner's home territory, would otherwise be impractical to access and operate in by those aircraft if they would be based in home territory land bases, due to limited aircraft range, refueling, rearming and service requirements. Thus aircraft carriers serve as mobile refueling spots, service points and landing strips to project air power across the globe. X4's carriers are none of that.

In X3, carriers made some sense because of jump drive and because they could also rearm fighters. I don't see any of that in X4. There's no jump drive, no rearming of fighters, no fuel, no repair. What's the use of carriers then? Why couldn't fighters just fly to the target themselves? If anything, they would only arrive faster than when they are carried by carrier. It really makes no sense currently.


On other topic, when I'm talking about logic, destroyers don't make any sense either. In real life, destroyer's original purpose was to destroy torpedo boats and smaller craft, later it was to hunt submarines and now it also serves as antiaircraft platform. Destroyers are meant to be fast, nimble and adaptive to fight off smaller targets and protect the fleet, while still packing a punch if needed. Destroyers in X4 can't defeat or even hit anything smaller than a frigate. How come?

[CaptainX4]

Just as the subject says, I think carriers make no sense in this game. And I'm not talking about the bugs that make them completely useless currently. I'm talking about logic.

What is the point of a carrier? Why does it exist? What is the carrier's main purpose? Look at real life examples that these games are based upon. Carrier's purpose is to (surprise, surprise) carry small aircraft to distant locations across the world which, due to large distance from aircraft owner's home territory, would otherwise be impractical to access and operate in by those aircraft if they would be based in home territory land bases, due to limited aircraft range, refueling, rearming and service requirements. Thus aircraft carriers serve as mobile refueling spots, service points and landing strips to project air power across the globe. X4's carriers are none of that.

In X3, carriers made some sense because of jump drive and because they could also rearm fighters. I don't see any of that in X4. There's no jump drive, no rearming of fighters, no fuel, no repair. What's the use of carriers then? Why couldn't fighters just fly to the target themselves? If anything, they would only arrive faster than when they are carried by carrier. It really makes no sense currently.

bernd was probably playing too much eve online and copied the crap carriers with drones that are otherwise useless... current x4 carriers are very alike. seriously, with the old style of side docks it would have been so easy to do it.

[kobayashimaru]

Just as the subject says, I think carriers make no sense in this game. And I'm not talking about the bugs that make them completely useless currently. I'm talking about logic.

What is the point of a carrier? Why does it exist? What is the carrier's main purpose? Look at real life examples that these games are based upon. Carrier's purpose is to (surprise, surprise) carry small aircraft to distant locations across the world which, due to large distance from aircraft owner's home territory, would otherwise be impractical to access and operate in by those aircraft if they would be based in home territory land bases, due to limited aircraft range, refueling, rearming and service requirements. Thus aircraft carriers serve as mobile refueling spots, service points and landing strips to project air power across the globe. X4's carriers are none of that.

In X3, carriers made some sense because of jump drive and because they could also rearm fighters. I don't see any of that in X4. There's no jump drive, no rearming of fighters, no fuel, no repair. What's the use of carriers then? Why couldn't fighters just fly to the target themselves? If anything, they would only arrive faster than when they are carried by carrier. It really makes no sense currently.

bernd was probably playing too much eve online and copied the crap carriers with drones that are otherwise useless... current x4 carriers are very alike. seriously, with the old style of side docks it would have been so easy to do it.

Yes, I was thinking about docks and docking last night as my eyes bled while I watched the agony that is fighters trying to dock on the carrier. It's so messed up and broken and it takes FOREVER for 10 fighters to dock. I mean, I like how Egosoft wanted to make everything realistic, that each ship actually lands on a freaking carrier and is carried away to the internal storage if landing pad needs to be cleared for another ship and all that actually happens before your eyes, BUT the AI can't handle it! I would rather see fighters magically disappear when they get close to the carrier and magically reappear when they are about to launch, just as in X3, than this, because this does not work and it's questionable if it ever will.

[Shehriazad]

Carriers just need 2 things to be actually useful in X4.



1: Make the docking/undocking a LOT faster on them.

2: JUMP. DRIVES. Seriously. If a Condor with 10M and 40S Ships can just APPEAR in a sector and bring its entire squad with it in an instant...then that, is insanely good.


A possible number 3: Give them shield regen in combat and actually make them soak some station damage...because right now a well equipped Xenon Station can melt a carrier a bit too fast.



Alternatively you could do some MORE work and allow the upcoming resupply-carriers to do Drive-through restock and repair work. Have a bunch of missile gunboats flying around and their missiles are empty? Just swish through the drive-through and get restocked.

There you go...

[kobayashimaru]

seriously, with the old style of side docks it would have been so easy to do it.

Colossus even has some kind of opening in the middle of the ship that I thought was dock. Then I saw my quasars struggling to land on those little landing pads haha.

[kobayashimaru]

Alternatively you could do some MORE work and allow the upcoming resupply-carriers to do Drive-through restock and repair work. Have a bunch of missile gunboats flying around and their missiles are empty? Just swish through the drive-through and get restocked.

This, MOST OF ALL! It should be the main purpose of a carrier- refuel, rearm and repair on the go.

But the current design of the ship equipping and rearming style does not allow something like this.

[CaptainX4]

Yes, I was thinking about docks and docking last night as my eyes bled while I watched the agony that is fighters trying to dock on the carrier. It's so messed up and broken and it takes FOREVER for 10 fighters to dock. I mean, I like how Egosoft wanted to make everything realistic, that each ship actually lands on a freaking carrier and is carried away to the internal storage if landing pad needs to be cleared for another ship and all that actually happens before your eyes, BUT the AI can't handle it! I would rather see fighters magically disappear when they get close to the carrier and magically reappear when they are about to launch, just as in X3, than this, because this does not work and it's questionable if it ever will.

i wouldnt like them disappearing but what we had in x3 trading stations and carriers, you flown in on the side and docked into clamps, now it could be the same with a rotating dock. fly in dock, dock turns fighter around to be ready for instant launch... enjoy. so many missed oportunities... i like landing pads on stations but on ships they are total mess, especially the drones using the same landing pads is a joke

[kobayashimaru]

i like landing pads on stations

Wait until you get stuck on a busy station with a single M pad, while your M ship is pulled to the internal storage and you can't get it out because of all the traffic. LOL

[thanos]

bernd was probably playing too much eve online and copied the crap carriers with drones that are otherwise useless... current x4 carriers are very alike. seriously, with the old style of side docks it would have been so easy to do it.

If only...

Eve carriers:
- Can jump (subcaps cannot jump).
- Can obliterate any subcap 1-1. In X4, a single fighter can kill a carrier. Try that in Eve with a (solo) frigate vs the carrier.
- Can repair other ships (FAX variant, and before that, the carrier itself could do it).
- Are actually good at making ISK.
- Are very powerful when used in large numbers, since their fighters have serious dps.

It's true that Eve carriers are not Galactica, but they're 'balanced' Eve-style. X4 carriers aren't even that.

[CaptainX4]

i like landing pads on stations

Wait until you get stuck on a busy station with a single M pad, while your M ship is pulled to the internal storage and you can't get it out because of all the traffic. LOL

been there done that, and i actually still like it. small cheap factories shouldnt have too many landing pads and so its a necessity and very life-like imo... it would need the deliver command so its brought back to you to leave on request but otherwise its good... not so much on a combatship that should be optimised for assaults.
of course on busy stations like wharfs and equipment docks they should have a lot more docking spaces... teladi trading stations are cool imo

[kobayashimaru]

i like landing pads on stations

Wait until you get stuck on a busy station with a single M pad, while your M ship is pulled to the internal storage and you can't get it out because of all the traffic. LOL

been there done that, and i actually still like it. small cheap factories shouldnt have too many landing pads and so its a necessity and very life-like imo... it would need the deliver command so its brought back to you to leave on request but otherwise its good... not so much on a combatship that should be optimised for assaults.
of course on busy stations like wharfs and equipment docks they should have a lot more docking spaces... teladi trading stations are cool imo

Yes, I agree. Even though it was somewhat surprising and irritating to wait, while I couldn't do anything to speed up the process, I still like how it's realistic. And as you said, it should not be the case on combat ships.
It could work as it is, only if AI would handle docking better. When I think about it now, I actually like this concept of carrier landing pads as it is currently. It brings more immersion and design options to the game. Besides flat hangar capacity, carriers now also have launch capacity, that is, they now have a "stat" which says how much fighters they can launch in a certain period of time, which depends on the number of landing pads, which is nice IMHO. It's kinda immersive and opens up another design consideration for carriers. More hangar space/less landing pads, more turrets/less landing pads, more M pads/less S pads etc. It's nice.

[ReverieSwimming]

Carriers also don't use their launch tubes unless the player is calling a ship from internal storage. This means it can take significantly longer to launch 5 waves of 8 fighters each, as they all have to be brought up the elevators, rather than launching in quick succession from the tubes, Galactica-style. They also have a tendency to get in each other's way and bounce the mothership about when launching from the elevators.

Seriously though, why do carriers have 10+ launch tubes when the only time they are used is when the player is personally launching a single ship? Is there a script that isn't working, or was this disabled on purpose for some reason?

[pref]

Indeed. Carriers are so useless not even NPCs use them as carriers - have yet to see one that has some fighters docked.

[Falcrack]

If carriers had jump drives to quickly get around, and could act as mobile missile restocking and repair stations for their fighters, they would have a real purpose...

[Chebz]

I think they were tack on feature that (maybe) egosoft will flesh out later... having said that, I want XL cap ship with XL turrets that is actually good at killing stations.

[Requiemfang]

On other topic, when I'm talking about logic, destroyers don't make any sense either. In real life, destroyer's original purpose was to destroy torpedo boats and smaller craft, later it was to hunt submarines and now it also serves as antiaircraft platform. Destroyers are meant to be fast, nimble and adaptive to fight off smaller targets and protect the fleet, while still packing a punch if needed. Destroyers in X4 can't defeat or even hit anything smaller than a frigate. How come?

Modern destroyers serve more of what a WWII battleship or Cruiser role use to be, Battleships in the modern world do not exist anymore due to the advancements in technology, if anything Battleships became obsolete in the modern world with the introduction of Carriers and a thing that's called cruise missiles, we have two types of ships now that serve that purpose at least in the US navy and that's Aegis Destroyers and Aegis Cruisers which can carry cruise missiles which outstrip a WW2 Era battleship's damage capabilities. Lets not forget that the big navies in the world currently are developing railgun platforms for ships, I've seen two instances of this, China and the US are still testing these experimental weapons, I wouldn't be surprised in the near future where conventional ship weapons are totally replaced with these type of weapons.

[Sandalpocalypse]

Repair doesnt matter much because every ship can mostly repair itself with service crew.

Ordnance restock would be helpful.

Enhanced drones would be rad. Another idea would be carrier-only cruise torpedos that need guidance from a fighter/drone with a designator weapon.

no to jump drives lol c'mon guys

[Requiemfang]

Jump Drives won't happen period, the devs have taken a very cemented stance on that and said multiple times it will not be in the game.

[TDQuasar]

I really tried to find a use for them and failed. Much simpler just to use destroyers in 1.50.

They should repair/recharge, rearm the fighters with a short cooldown. Undocking/redocking of fighters need to be improved a lot. Near the carrier the fighters should enjoy some minor advantages, such as increased shield and faster max speed so the player would want to use fighters WITH the carriers.

I would love to be able to effectively use carriers in X4.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

@OP: I disagree, your comparison with real world carriers are also moot in the main.

In X4 we have two basic types of Carrier:-

1. S ship Carrier - most if not all L ships fall into this category and a few M size ships can carry a single S size ship.
2. S/M ship Carrier - the Odysseus and all XL Carriers

Of the S/M ship carriers only the Odysseus lacks the extra S ship launch tubes that allow internalised ships to launch without requiring an S sized landing pad. The Odysseus also is unique amongst the Destroyers by having the M ship landing capability but this comes at the cost of 2 S landing/launching pads which effectively halves the fighter/drone recovery/launch rate versus other Destroyers.

The S/M sized carrier (whether Odysseus or a full Carrier) can serve essentially 2 purposes:-

1. Bailed/Claimed Ship carrier
2. Personal ship/wing carrier (c/f Carriers in X2)
3. An actual carrier (they can deploy and recover wings of ships much faster than a destroyer can)

Effective use of carriers (as carriers) is a tricky one, the main issue we have is a more general problem with the level of control over subordinate ships. As it currently stands, we have very little control over how subordinate ships are organised and deployed. We can structure subordinates as wings forming a try like structure but controlling who launches when is a bit of a bug bear - as is control of launch and recovery of drones.

It would also help to have better pad management so we can call specific ships to specific docks or even manually internalise a ship on a docking pad.

As it currently stands, the main benefit of a Carrier is the ability to carrier vast amounts of crew and marines making boarding ops of other ships at least a bit easier - the only real problem is with the crew transfer mechanisms in that regard - there really needs to be a facility for bulk crew transfers.

I also disagree with the suggestion that the fighters need any *additional* "special advantages" just because they happen to be near to or being used with a carrier. As it currently stands, when ships are assigned as subordinates they should work as a team with each other and with the carrier. This aspect is currently fully automated with very little control over how or when things are done - the command and control aspect is the only aspect of the carrier mechanics that arguably needs to be tweaked by Egosoft. Anything else is really the purview of community mods.