Auto-trader and auto-miner suggestions.

This forum is the ideal place for all discussion relating to X4. You will also find additional information from developers here.

Moderator: Moderators for English X Forum

Post Reply
sh1pman
Posts: 592
Joined: Wed, 10. Aug 16, 13:28
x4

Auto-trader and auto-miner suggestions.

Post by sh1pman » Wed, 9. Jan 19, 22:23

Now that the holidays are over, and my posts have a (hopefully) higher chance to be noticed by an ES dev, I’d like to make some suggestions about how to improve auto-trader and auto-miner behavior. After 150 hours of playtime, I find their AI ... very limited, to say the least. I am confident that their behavior needs to be improved in vanilla game, not by modders. Because, you know, ventures, and all that. So:

1) Auto-traders need to look for the highest total profit per trade run, as opposed to the current situation when they only check the price difference between buyer and seller. 10 e-cell trades by an L freighter need to go.

2) Minimum cargo percentage/slider, to further discourage almost-empty trade runs.

3) Blacklist for factions (including player’s own) and sectors for both mining and trading. I’ve seen cases where my auto-miners were trying to mine in Xenon sectors. Ability to discriminate between factions is useful if you want to make your auto-captains stay away from your own factories, or trade exclusively with them.

4) Station-assigned auto-traders and miners always put all of their station’s resources and wares to their auto-trade UI, and it resets it you try to limit the list. This is an obvious oversight, we should be able to choose which wares they deal with.

5) Miners assigned to stations that deal with more than one raw resource can get their cargo filled with a resource that the station can’t hold any more of. It gets stuck, and they can’t drop it (unless you do it manually). The miner will then just fly around, unable to mine anything else. Solution: Station-assigned miners shouldn’t mine more than they can offload at their station.

6) Captains should really be able to auto-trade at 1 star, same as mining. Not only is finding a 3-star captain ...unreliable, as is their leveling, but it’s also inconsistent - miners can find the best place to sell their resources at 1 star, why can’t traders do almost the same thing, but without the mining part and with the buying part?

7) Auto-miner drones need fixing ASAP. Just watch L ships mine (gas or solid, doesn’t matter), their drones ALWAYS get left behind. Make L miners stay still until all of their drones are docked before moving to another spot.

8) Miners again. How do they know where to mine? Make them require resource probes or something like that (just one per sector is ok), it breaks my immersion that they always know the right spots without prospecting first!

9) It’d be nice if hired captains had some sort of salary, or a cut from their deals. Don’t want to feel like they’re slaves.

10) Proper range settings for miners: home sector, distance (in jumps) to mine, distance to sell. Right now they have a single max range option that doesn’t even work. I saw miners ignoring their max range completely.

Feel free to post other suggestions! (I really hope they see this...)
Last edited by sh1pman on Thu, 10. Jan 19, 07:20, edited 2 times in total.

peteran
Posts: 269
Joined: Thu, 26. Jul 07, 13:01
x4

Re: Auto-trader and auto-miner suggestions.

Post by peteran » Wed, 9. Jan 19, 23:28

I win, I've got 224 hours on Steam. Although thats not all on the same gamestart or active playtime.

I would say that almost all the auto behavious in general MUST be changed to some sane behaviour in vanilla. New players will be discouraged and probably ask for a refund if they discovered how the game works in time. I know I would have asked for a refund if I hadn't known what I was buying and getting. Or well, I almost knew what I was getting since I got the game a day after rekease. In my opinion the game should have been early access and is still not at a point where I would call it ready (in any sense of the word) for new players.

Yes, there already are several wonderful mods that increase your quality of life and reduces the number of poor usability decisions or fix broken/lacking game mechanics. The vanilla game needs some of these not just for the venture problem but also to be friendly and welcoming to new players.

Your suggestions sound pretty good but there needs to be a balance between ease of use and configurability. Right now what is lacking is a description of what the different options are supposed to be doing. There are almost no tooltips in the game and not a reasonable manual. This leads to intended behaviour being reported as bugs when nobody knows what is supposed to happen.

I would suggest that the traders would learn things by doing.
The personnel could for instance have a set of skills that affect them in the following way:
[*] Piloting: Affects route planning and on higher levels the possibilitt to avoid certain sectors is added
[*] Morale: Response to hostile behaviour
[*] Management: Affects general behaviour of auto traders

This would make seminars more valuable.

The crew could notify the player when they have learned something valuable, i.e. "I've discovered that I can avoid certain sectors." This obviously need to be optional to avoid spamming players with larger empires with notifications.

Falcrack
Posts: 4997
Joined: Wed, 29. Jul 09, 00:46
x4

Re: Auto-trader and auto-miner suggestions.

Post by Falcrack » Thu, 10. Jan 19, 01:48

All wonderful points, OP. Hopefully ES takes them into consideration.

User avatar
grapedog
Posts: 2398
Joined: Sat, 21. Feb 04, 20:17
x4

Re: Auto-trader and auto-miner suggestions.

Post by grapedog » Thu, 10. Jan 19, 05:48

sh1pman wrote:
Wed, 9. Jan 19, 22:23
1) Auto-traders need to look for the highest total profit per trade run, as opposed to the current situation when they only check the price difference between buyer and seller. 10 e-cell trades by an L freighter need to go.
not that it's a perfect solution, but I've removed ECells from my auto-traders wares lists, and on all my stations I've maxed out the sell price, to reduce the chances of my own traders selling ECells, and the amount of NPC traffic. They can come for other stuff...

I'd like to see also a way to blacklist sectors too, which pretty much is the same as blacklisting a faction. I can't think of a single sector that has more than 1 faction, unless you're talking about HAT and ARG, or SCA and TEL perhaps. If trading is going to be a little more dangerous, which it should be, there should be tools to help deal with it. Right now we have no tools.

I also agree completely with being able to edit trade lists of those traders who are subordinate to a station, without the stations resetting them back to default.

I want the digital training seminars to work.

I want all areas of a station accessable, like Bar, Traders Corner, Engineering Section, Security Section.... and at those places, we have a chance at finding decent personnel. The bar could have pilots, but really anything, the engineering section would have engineers, and the security area could have marines.

Trades that cannot be completed should have more notification. I don't need 3 different notifications that a trade has been completed, my reputation went up a fraction, and how much was made. Profit/Loss should be tracked by trader, and not always sent to the notification window. That should be for important things... like trades not being completed, police interdiction, reputation loss. I have SO MUCH SPAM right now, that when I complete a mission, ANY mission, I have to wait anywhere from 15-60 seconds to get notified that the mission was completed and how much the payout was. That's not right.

sh1pman
Posts: 592
Joined: Wed, 10. Aug 16, 13:28
x4

Re: Auto-trader and auto-miner suggestions.

Post by sh1pman » Thu, 10. Jan 19, 21:50

grapedog wrote:
Thu, 10. Jan 19, 05:48
Trades that cannot be completed should have more notification. I don't need 3 different notifications that a trade has been completed, my reputation went up a fraction, and how much was made. Profit/Loss should be tracked by trader, and not always sent to the notification window. That should be for important things... like trades not being completed, police interdiction, reputation loss. I have SO MUCH SPAM right now, that when I complete a mission, ANY mission, I have to wait anywhere from 15-60 seconds to get notified that the mission was completed and how much the payout was. That's not right.
Yeah, the notification spam is quite insane at this point. If there’s no option to turn them off, it definitely needs to be implemented.

RodentofDoom
Posts: 406
Joined: Sat, 27. Feb 16, 09:37
x4

Re: Auto-trader and auto-miner suggestions.

Post by RodentofDoom » Thu, 10. Jan 19, 23:40

If you configure them sensibly on the behaviour panel they work very well
Just because you 'can' add [allthewares] doesn't mean that you should.
Seeing as 2* is for distribute wares (Which is sector based, and that's why there is no gate setting on that duty) a 3* rating is a sensible requirement for a free roving untended trader

The market economy has changed dramatically for X4, thinking what used to work in X2/3/R will equally work in X4 is an error on your part.

User avatar
grapedog
Posts: 2398
Joined: Sat, 21. Feb 04, 20:17
x4

Re: Auto-trader and auto-miner suggestions.

Post by grapedog » Fri, 11. Jan 19, 00:26

RodentofDoom wrote:
Thu, 10. Jan 19, 23:40
If you configure them sensibly on the behaviour panel they work very well
Just because you 'can' add [allthewares] doesn't mean that you should.
Seeing as 2* is for distribute wares (Which is sector based, and that's why there is no gate setting on that duty) a 3* rating is a sensible requirement for a free roving untended trader

The market economy has changed dramatically for X4, thinking what used to work in X2/3/R will equally work in X4 is an error on your part.
There is no more distribute wares.

sh1pman
Posts: 592
Joined: Wed, 10. Aug 16, 13:28
x4

Re: Auto-trader and auto-miner suggestions.

Post by sh1pman » Fri, 11. Jan 19, 00:27

RodentofDoom wrote:
Thu, 10. Jan 19, 23:40
If you configure them sensibly on the behaviour panel they work very well
Just because you 'can' add [allthewares] doesn't mean that you should.
Seeing as 2* is for distribute wares (Which is sector based, and that's why there is no gate setting on that duty) a 3* rating is a sensible requirement for a free roving untended trader

The market economy has changed dramatically for X4, thinking what used to work in X2/3/R will equally work in X4 is an error on your part.
Except they don’t work well. They do bad trades, sometimes don’t work at all and lack a lot of vital settings. Where have I said that I wanted to add all the wares? I want to be able to LIMIT the wares of station-assigned traders, and I can’t. I don’t want them to do 3 (three) weapon components trade runs, and I can’t prevent that. I don’t want miners to mine in Xenon space, limiting their range doesn’t work because they IGNORE that setting for some reason. And so on, and so forth. Have I ever said that I want them to work exactly like in X2/3? Would it be a bad thing if they worked better than they do now? Don’t be ridiculous. If you don’t think that they need to be improved, please ignore this thread.

pref
Posts: 5607
Joined: Sat, 10. Nov 12, 17:55
x4

Re: Auto-trader and auto-miner suggestions.

Post by pref » Fri, 11. Jan 19, 01:23

sh1pman wrote:
Fri, 11. Jan 19, 00:27
they don’t work well. They do bad trades
I'm wondering if they did good trades all the time what would that result in balance wise?
Getting a couple 100k or much more with Ls per run. And an M run takes a couple mins only...

I'm happy if they add more settings like min volume, sector blacklist, min/max price for station traders but that shouldn't result in getting mills per hour just because we sent a single trader with a few clicks.
The current amount of cash they make seems just right imo.

sh1pman
Posts: 592
Joined: Wed, 10. Aug 16, 13:28
x4

Re: Auto-trader and auto-miner suggestions.

Post by sh1pman » Fri, 11. Jan 19, 01:48

pref wrote:
Fri, 11. Jan 19, 01:23
sh1pman wrote:
Fri, 11. Jan 19, 00:27
they don’t work well. They do bad trades
I'm wondering if they did good trades all the time what would that result in balance wise?
Getting a couple 100k or much more with Ls per run. And an M run takes a couple mins only...

I'm happy if they add more settings like min volume, sector blacklist, min/max price for station traders but that shouldn't result in getting mills per hour just because we sent a single trader with a few clicks.
The current amount of cash they make seems just right imo.
I don’t want them to be ultimate money printing machines either. That role should be reserved for mega-factories :) What I suggest is to give us more tools to make them do exactly what we want them to do, that is all. And fix some obvious bugs/oversights, like with mining drones being constantly left behind.

Alan Phipps
Moderator (English)
Moderator (English)
Posts: 30433
Joined: Fri, 16. Apr 04, 19:21
x4

Re: Auto-trader and auto-miner suggestions.

Post by Alan Phipps » Fri, 11. Jan 19, 14:20

I noted a report from the OP asking for this thread to be moved to Tech Sp. That will not happen as a suggestion/discussion thread is not appropriate for that forum.

If actual game bugs are to be reported there then they should each be posted one per thread along with all the supporting game and system information and clear steps to reproduce the issue.
A dog has a master; a cat has domestic staff.

sh1pman
Posts: 592
Joined: Wed, 10. Aug 16, 13:28
x4

Re: Auto-trader and auto-miner suggestions.

Post by sh1pman » Fri, 11. Jan 19, 19:35

Apparently, there was a bug with the way traders find good trade deals that is fixed in 1.51 beta. If traders are now good at their job and don’t prioritize 30 energy cell trades, then I’d say that my “1)” suggestion is probably obsolete. I’ll leave it there for now, until the patch is out of beta.

Post Reply

Return to “X4: Foundations”