6 destroyers destroyed by a bunch of fighters

[DeFragMe]

I think the most stupid thing ever invented is that recharge delay. That must go away! Makes jokes out of capital ships!
A fart in your general direction keeps the huge capacitor banks of your 1200 m battleship from recharging the one thing that is made to be shot at?!? Seriously?
Of course shields are regenerating constantly!

Then while they are at it , reworking the turrets in general, Egosoft should introduce real capital ship weapons!
How many hits from a 360 mm ship howitzer do they think a gun boat can withstand?

farting in ones general direcion is exactly what turrets do. And thats why they fail to destroy anything. Their projectile speed is poop, thats why they fail to hit smaller objects. When current in athmopshere weapons can reach exit speeds of 1000ms, one would expect that futuristic weapons in space would actually have much higher speeds to exactly circumvent that Problem of not hitting stuff at 1,5km+ distance. But instead we have those big soap bubble fart turrets that cannot hit anything at decent speed. Even the pulse laser turrets have such a bad speed that any course/speedchange makes the projectiles miss, And this makes any lead aim the AI turrets do completely being a nonworking concept. And thus we all best use laser turrets because they hit due to not having any traveltime.

But I just wonder, how are off-sector battles done? Do they only get calculated? Does accuracy of turrets not matter then? Because I had an L trader which did fairly well until the moment I went to watch it live and then ti seemed to not being able to hit anything anymore.

i dont really want to add much to the discussion.. but about the speed of the bullets.. most bullets in the game move at more than 2km/s , only weapon slower than 2km/s is Plasma and missiles. The aim of the guns is just.. horrible.

[Grimmrog]

I think the most stupid thing ever invented is that recharge delay. That must go away! Makes jokes out of capital ships!
A fart in your general direction keeps the huge capacitor banks of your 1200 m battleship from recharging the one thing that is made to be shot at?!? Seriously?
Of course shields are regenerating constantly!

Then while they are at it , reworking the turrets in general, Egosoft should introduce real capital ship weapons!
How many hits from a 360 mm ship howitzer do they think a gun boat can withstand?

farting in ones general direcion is exactly what turrets do. And thats why they fail to destroy anything. Their projectile speed is poop, thats why they fail to hit smaller objects. When current in athmopshere weapons can reach exit speeds of 1000ms, one would expect that futuristic weapons in space would actually have much higher speeds to exactly circumvent that Problem of not hitting stuff at 1,5km+ distance. But instead we have those big soap bubble fart turrets that cannot hit anything at decent speed. Even the pulse laser turrets have such a bad speed that any course/speedchange makes the projectiles miss, And this makes any lead aim the AI turrets do completely being a nonworking concept. And thus we all best use laser turrets because they hit due to not having any traveltime.

But I just wonder, how are off-sector battles done? Do they only get calculated? Does accuracy of turrets not matter then? Because I had an L trader which did fairly well until the moment I went to watch it live and then ti seemed to not being able to hit anything anymore.

i dont really want to add much to the discussion.. but about the speed of the bullets.. most bullets in the game move at more than 2km/s , only weapon slower than 2km/s is Plasma and missiles. The aim of the guns is just.. horrible.

Aim is not horrible, they aim as well as lasers do, the issue is still travel times. you cna observe that when an enemie does not move in an one directional vector, because only then stays the prediction of the preaim circle true to where the opponent will be. otherwise you just miss, and that happens most of the time when the opponent moves in any vector that changes like, takign turns, changing speed. laser turrets just don't have to aim at a leading circle, and they hit, if aiming would be bad they would also miss. but the aim prediction is the issue, and it is also why a quick and nimble ship can avoid fire of opponents, since they aim the same way. As a human player you just adabt (except you are doing jousting battles) a flight style that tries to align your vector with the one of the opponent so that the aim lead is not affected by multiple directional changes.

In elite dangerous this is a similar thing but projectiles there have more variety (some at liek 800m/s others at whole 1600m/s, but ships are less nimble there when it comes to sudden vector alterations, which then creates the same issue only at specific distances depending on the guns. and here in X we see the same, where pulses are kinda fine, Lasers definately strike(not hard without ravel time) but the other weapons being smply too slow for the quickness of all small ships. And this simply comes from the way how vector changes are too unpredictable by how quickly you can change them compared to projectile speed.

[DeFragMe]

farting in ones general direcion is exactly what turrets do. And thats why they fail to destroy anything. Their projectile speed is poop, thats why they fail to hit smaller objects. When current in athmopshere weapons can reach exit speeds of 1000ms, one would expect that futuristic weapons in space would actually have much higher speeds to exactly circumvent that Problem of not hitting stuff at 1,5km+ distance. But instead we have those big soap bubble fart turrets that cannot hit anything at decent speed. Even the pulse laser turrets have such a bad speed that any course/speedchange makes the projectiles miss, And this makes any lead aim the AI turrets do completely being a nonworking concept. And thus we all best use laser turrets because they hit due to not having any traveltime.

But I just wonder, how are off-sector battles done? Do they only get calculated? Does accuracy of turrets not matter then? Because I had an L trader which did fairly well until the moment I went to watch it live and then ti seemed to not being able to hit anything anymore.

i dont really want to add much to the discussion.. but about the speed of the bullets.. most bullets in the game move at more than 2km/s , only weapon slower than 2km/s is Plasma and missiles. The aim of the guns is just.. horrible.

Aim is not horrible, they aim as well as lasers do, the issue is still travel times. you cna observe that when an enemie does not move in an one directional vector, because only then stays the prediction of the preaim circle true to where the opponent will be. otherwise you just miss, and that happens most of the time when the opponent moves in any vector that changes like, takign turns, changing speed. laser turrets just don't have to aim at a leading circle, and they hit, if aiming would be bad they would also miss. but the aim prediction is the issue, and it is also why a quick and nimble ship can avoid fire of opponents, since they aim the same way. As a human player you just adabt (except you are doing jousting battles) a flight style that tries to align your vector with the one of the opponent so that the aim lead is not affected by multiple directional changes.

In elite dangerous this is a similar thing but projectiles there have more variety (some at liek 800m/s others at whole 1600m/s, but ships are less nimble there when it comes to sudden vector alterations, which then creates the same issue only at specific distances depending on the guns. and here in X we see the same, where pulses are kinda fine, Lasers definately strike(not hard without ravel time) but the other weapons being smply too slow for the quickness of all small ships. And this simply comes from the way how vector changes are too unpredictable by how quickly you can change them compared to projectile speed.

oh, dont worry, i know that, but have you ever seen how especially turrets shoot at stuff that flies completly silently without turning? i mostly see this on khaak (since their movment is quite linear compared to Xenon and other factions), the guns just.. miss, for no real reason. i would expect my pulse turrets (shoots nearly flying 4km/s on a target not even 2km away) to constantly hit the target. Afterall it is not changing direciton, speed or anything. but no, most shoots still miss.

thats why i think they are not aiming at the right place, and there for the aim is quite bad. The shots usually land (at least on khaak ships) behind the target, like it is not traking far enough into the front. One might say it is traking speed, but it isnt, i have the same problem with turrets that trak slower or faster. Its like it has a randomnees inside it of how good it actually will hit.... but hey , maybe it is the crew, i dont know.

[pref]

I also think the shield-draining boost mechanic is silly. I mean, when do you most need to boost? When you're getting your arse kicked and your shields are out! A separate capacitor for boost - or even separate "emergency boost" fuel would be a far far better mechanic in my view.

But then you get an easy way out of any harm, and if NPC ships also have this this would be extremely annoying - no battle ever finished, anyone can escape whenever they please.
Game hasn't enough tension even in current state, would be sad to see it being made even more easy.

[Sentinel-Ghost]

I also think the shield-draining boost mechanic is silly. I mean, when do you most need to boost? When you're getting your arse kicked and your shields are out! A separate capacitor for boost - or even separate "emergency boost" fuel would be a far far better mechanic in my view.

But then you get an easy way out of any harm, and if NPC ships also have this this would be extremely annoying - no battle ever finished, anyone can escape whenever they please.
Game hasn't enough tension even in current state, would be sad to see it being made even more easy.

The boost mechanic definitely needs a rework, maybe shorten the boost duration and have it on its own separate 'fuel gauge'?

Capital ship weapons do seem a bit lackluster, the projectile speed seems fairly comparable to X3, its just the DPS, range and cool-downs that seem to be out of whack.

[mistervec]

Yeeeh. Turrets and shield regen are def the issues here.

The thing is, I don't think that the existing turrets are need to be reworked. They're all mark 1 weapons, afterall, so having them be lackluster would kind of make sense if there were also better options available. There just aren't.

For instance, large ships can mount missile launchers in their medium turrets. Medium-sized ships can't, so clearly turret options can be limited by hull size or ship type. Why not have mark 2 turrets for L and XL ships? Maybe they put more bullets in the air, increasing their odds of hitting. Or maybe have turrets that fire a minimally damaging projectile that temporarily reduces the target's speed and maneuverability (making them easier to hit). Even having some turrets that are actually effective at zapping incoming missiles, but do mediocre shield/hull damage. There are options is what I'm getting at.

As for shield regen, that's going to be a bit tougher. I do think the current system makes larger ships far more vulnerable than they should be. Constant regen is one option, as is periodic regen (where the shields heal a set amount once every few seconds). Basically, I shouldn't be able to destroy a capital ship with a pair of the weakest weapons in the game just by parking in one spot and holding the trigger for twenty minutes. Or capture one, which I've done a couple of times already now.

[pref]

The boost mechanic definitely needs a rework, maybe shorten the boost duration and have it on its own separate 'fuel gauge'?

Capital ship weapons do seem a bit lackluster, the projectile speed seems fairly comparable to X3, its just the DPS, range and cool-downs that seem to be out of whack.

Or just not enter any situation without thinking about risks, or if you do at least leave before shields are fully drained. I find that idea terrible - don't even get why it would need a rework in the first place. Because you can't just pull out from anywhere, anytime?

What could use a bit of balance is hull/shield ratio - shields should probably last longer and hulls should be the last 10-30% of the ship's "HP".
That would make it easier to keep the last drops of shield energy for an emergency escape.

[Dreez]

I am waiting for 2.0 to see any changes to ships, AI and turrets.
I will make an indepth post with constructive criticism of the current system, once 2.0 is out.

[Scoob]

But then you get an easy way out of any harm, and if NPC ships also have this this would be extremely annoying - no battle ever finished, anyone can escape whenever they please.
Game hasn't enough tension even in current state, would be sad to see it being made even more easy.

It's a fine balance for sure, but having zero options when your shield is suddenly instantly taken down isn't fun. Having say three seconds worth of boost, for example, gives you time to reorient and stand a fighting chance. It's less about the current mechanic which allows you to boost away at insane speeds if you have some shield left. I personally think changing the boost mechanic will make combat a little more tactical. It's not an instant escape tool any more, but can be used to advantage with skill.

Currently, if I come under a hail of fire from just two Xenon N's while in my Cerberus for example, that can be the end of me. They strip my shield in seconds, and then I cannot get away, the craft simply isn't nimble enough to evade fire = shields never recharge. My turrets are hopeless, and even if they're landing regular hits - which they don't without mods - they barely do any damage. It's the same the other way around, I can easily take out a Frigate in my starting ship...that's just not right.

Boosting is just one element of the combat dynamics that need addressing. Mods are already making massive improvements in other areas. I.e. allowing turrets to sometimes hit their targets rather than only rarely, while also having them do at least some damage. Being able to use boost separately to shield energy, allows for a ship to gain some distance, allowing for re-engagement.

So, yeah, for me boost is not really about always being able to escape, it about being able to stay in the fight.

Scoob.

[pref]

Currently, if I come under a hail of fire from just two Xenon N's while in my Cerberus for example, that can be the end of me. They strip my shield in seconds, and then I cannot get away, the craft simply isn't nimble enough to evade fire = shields never recharge. My turrets are hopeless, and even if they're landing regular hits - which they don't without mods - they barely do any damage. It's the same the other way around, I can easily take out a Frigate in my starting ship...that's just not right.

This is more because of turret hitrate and dps, generally more and more messed up balance as you go up ship classes, the shield recharge mechanics etc.

In such a situation you shouldn't even think about boosting away, so granting a 3sec free boost even isn't the real solution.
Bigger ships should be deadly to smaller ones, one shouldn't be able to deal with a K in a disco either.

Unfortunately there are more problems here then what boost could solve, and a free 3 sec boost is still a good way to eliminate any pressure and the need to think about what you are doing a bit ahead of time.

[Scoob]

This is more because of turret hitrate and dps, generally more and more messed up balance as you go up ship classes, the shield recharge mechanics etc.

In such a situation you shouldn't even think about boosting away, so granting a 3sec free boost even isn't the real solution.
Bigger ships should be deadly to smaller ones, one shouldn't be able to deal with a K in a disco either.

Unfortunately there are more problems here then what boost could solve, and a free 3 sec boost is still a good way to eliminate any pressure and the need to think about what you are doing a bit ahead of time.

That was my point really, changing the boost mechanic is in no way a counter to the various other short-comings of the game currently. However, the other issues have been at least partially addressed with mods, so if Mods can effect how boost works too, that's a solution I'd use.

As the game stands now, I only use boost to close the distance on something quickly, and then only light taps to preserve my shields. So, in that sense boost is a non-issue when I'm personally flying a ship. However, it's how the AI uses it that's a total pain. Gaining an easy kill because my AI opponent decided to randomly boost for no valid reason reducing his shield to zero is silly. Equally, losing one of my own ships because the idiot decides to activate "shield depletion mode" is just as infuriating. Thankfully, mods have addressed this aspect of boosting to a degree, making fights much better.

How I envisage boost being used is when a ship is in trouble and just wants to gain a little distance. It doesn't go fast enough to take it right out of combat, but it buys the player (or AI) time to reposition and bring weapons to bare again. If turrets were effective this would be small ships getting out of the danger zone to attack from a different vector, or perhaps a less manoeuvrable ship gaining enough distance to face a particularly nimble one.

I personally want to see ships boosting and dodging in combat. If this means an AI gets away from me then GREAT, all these pilots either fighting until death or bailing is a little simplistic. Having a foe realise they're over matched and retreating is cool in my book. Perhaps they'll return with buddies next time. The player shouldn't always be able to catch them, and the other way around too, a quick boost to avoid fire for 10 seconds, then engaging travel mode to flee. I can always give chase if I choose.

Scoob.

[AllGamer]

Just my 2 cents, but yep in the current form of the game it's extremely unbalanced for Larger ships.

Anything Large, are too easily destroyed by a dozen of fighters.

The funny thing even large Xenon destroyers needs to run away from fighters being shot at helplessly without a way to fight back, the balance of the game is way way off.

[radcapricorn]

The funny thing even large Xenon destroyers needs to run away from fighters being shot at helplessly without a way to fight back, the balance of the game is way way off.

I'm afraid that even taking rebalancing of turret accuracy, damage and range into account, they would at best become mediocre against NPC ships and/or in low-attention combat. Against players though... as vulgar as it sounds, without some serious redesign, the poor overgrown grubs can be easily taken iguana-style.

[Bubonosaure]

I really like what Blackrain has done to turrets, bigger shields and some constant regen. Much better range and damage. Makes every ship feel useful. Drones carriers heavily dilute turret fire while dishing out reasonably now, capitals can actually destroy fighters reasonably while being able to deal and soak a lot of damage. And he didn't go all the way like some other mods, which I like. It's too early for me to stray away from the original intent. Buffing proj speed of many projectiles also helped tremendously with accuracy. It's not pinpoint so fighters do get to do their thing but they need back up.

try it out.

[Ghalador]

But I just wonder, how are off-sector battles done? Do they only get calculated? Does accuracy of turrets not matter then? Because I had an L trader which did fairly well until the moment I went to watch it live and then ti seemed to not being able to hit anything anymore.

Yes, there is and always was a thing called OOS in X (out of sector).
If you are not there, the whole environmental part of it does not apply and THEN those fighters lose badly against a destroyer.

[LennStar]

I find it hilarious that when controlling a destroyer you need to use the main cannons to take out fighters reliably.

Also scaling is questionable. Bombers have 4 turrets 2 main guns, literally packed to the brim. Destroyers with 10 times the surface area have 10 turrets 2 main guns with obvious gaps on their structure.

Yeah and on carriers you don't eve see those turrets, they are so tiny, do so little dmg and there are so few of them that it simply feels as if they weren't there. The balance is none-existent in X4... so are the turrets... considering how bad they are... You pretty much flying a bunch of metal meat shield that can do little of anything other than flying...

Admitteldy you could say carriers are packed full with fighters who are supposed to fight, so the carier does not need turrets.

But that aside even the destroyers have less turrets than they should have (definitely at current effectiveness).

Aren't there only M and L turrets now??
Current beam turrets should be S and destroyers and especially battleships (to be implemented XL) should be sprinkled with them for anti-fighter. Makes great lightshow, too. And then a few medium and heavy turrets, where the heavys are so slow to move they can only hit cap ships.

[reanor]

I find it hilarious that when controlling a destroyer you need to use the main cannons to take out fighters reliably.

Also scaling is questionable. Bombers have 4 turrets 2 main guns, literally packed to the brim. Destroyers with 10 times the surface area have 10 turrets 2 main guns with obvious gaps on their structure.

Yeah and on carriers you don't eve see those turrets, they are so tiny, do so little dmg and there are so few of them that it simply feels as if they weren't there. The balance is none-existent in X4... so are the turrets... considering how bad they are... You pretty much flying a bunch of metal meat shield that can do little of anything other than flying...

Admitteldy you could say carriers are packed full with fighters who are supposed to fight, so the carier does not need turrets.

But that aside even the destroyers have less turrets than they should have (definitely at current effectiveness).

Aren't there only M and L turrets now??
Current beam turrets should be S and destroyers and especially battleships (to be implemented XL) should be sprinkled with them for anti-fighter. Makes great lightshow, too. And then a few medium and heavy turrets, where the heavys are so slow to move they can only hit cap ships.

Add to that current bug that some docked subordinates never undock to protect the carrier unless manually undocked, and you pretty much have nothing...