Missile lead pursuit

[Falcrack]

For those not aware, modern missiles, when following their target, follow a lead pursuit course. This simply means they are aiming their nose at the point where the missile and target will intercept, rather than pointing the nose continually at the target itself and making constant course corrections. If the target does not change course or speed, the missile will need no course corrections in flight. This is the most sensible thing to do, since it means the missile has less distance to travel and will intercept the target sooner than if if followed a "lag pursuit" course, especially for targets travelling perpendicular to the missile trajectory. This by the way is the default behavior of laser shots in X3. They lead the target and aim for the point where the target will be when the shot arrives, rather than shoot right towards the target and miss. The calculations to follow such a course are neither complex nor taxing for modern CPUs.

I wonder if the devs have given any thought to having the missiles follow a lead pursuit course for X4? In X3, the failure to follow such a course seems to be the main reason that, so often, the missile would trail after an enemy, and right when it should be hitting the target, it goes into a series of hilarious loops and circles around the target, which is most likely to happen when chasing a target flying at right angles to it or incoming and off to a slight angle.

Lead pursuit courses need not apply just to missiles, but also the course a fighter would fly when trying to intercept another fighter. It would be cool if the AI would take such things into consideration. I naturally follow a bit of a lead pursuit when trying to intercept another fighter, aiming the nose of my ship a bit more to the left when intercepting a fighter travelling left relative to me.

[mr.WHO]

Huh? Isn't missiles in X-games already do this?
As you stated lasers do this in order to hit their target and the same should be true for missiles as otherwise you have missile flying in needesly long and inefective way (taxing CPU and calculation update).

[Falcrack]

Huh? Isn't missiles in X-games already do this?
As you stated lasers do this in order to hit their target and the same should be true for missiles as otherwise you have missile flying in needesly long and inefective way (taxing CPU and calculation update).

No, in X3 they point their nose directly towards target, they do not try to lead the target. I know because I have spent enough time watching and observing this behavior. I don't know for X:R because I never really could get into playing it for too long.

Missiles in X3 definitely do fly in needlessly long and ineffective ways, but I don't think it changes CPU utilization or increased calculations to use one method over the other. They still have to track and update their calculations regularly to either lead the target or head straight towards it.

[X-Raptor]

@Falcrack,
I totally agree with what you've stated, very well!

You said,

Missiles in X3 point their nose directly towards target, they do not try to lead the target... Missiles in X3 definitely do fly in needlessly long and ineffective ways.

Exactly... and I shall add to what you've stated (that the missile should be aiming its nose at the point where the missile and target will intercept, rather than pointing the nose continually at the target itself), that's also true particularly for missiles that have shorter ranges (and those that aren't much faster than target) so that they will expire and self-destruct before hitting the target rather than otherwise potentially hitting it if they were aiming at the intersection point. And that's how X4 AI would be much smarter.

[Falcrack]

I suppose though with modern missiles there are some exceptions to the lead pursuit model, such as heat seeking missiles, since they do not necessarily have info regarding the target speed, direction, or distance like a radar guided missile would.

[ZombiePotatoSalad]

Missiles in X3 did that because the ships don't move faster than the missiles. You may hope to try to outmaneuver the missile, but it will keep looping until it either self-destructs, connects, or is destroyed. I believe there was no countermeasure system originally in X3AP, so the best option was the configure your turrets as a sort of CIWS.

Most video games do this, as it requires no extra coding, and there really is no need for target leading. This is most visible in the Ace Combat series. There is either HIT or MISS (In X3, counting "missile destroyed" as a miss). The X series is really no different.

[LittleBird]

I hate this intercept mechanic!
You can easily exploit it so only fast weapons can hit you and you can easily miss if the target changes directions.

I hope this crap is gone or at least improved.

[ZombiePotatoSalad]

It also makes it to where if you don't have a countermeasure system or turrets (i.e. just starting out in My First Ship), you're pretty much out of luck as soon as the first missile is fired.

[Sandalpocalypse]

target follow missiles look cooler and are easier to dodge, dodging is good!

[A5PECT]

You can still (theoretically) dodge missiles that lead their target. You'd have to dodge them in slightly different ways, e.g. you could quickly decelerate to make the missile overshoot its target.

[Falcrack]

In general, I hope that missiles in X4 are faster relative to ships than they are in X3. I always felt it was odd that ships would routinely outrun missiles in X3.

[X-Raptor]

It also makes it to where if you don't have a countermeasure system or turrets (i.e. just starting out in My First Ship), you're pretty much out of luck as soon as the first missile is fired.

In the event that the Player don't have a countermeasure system or turrets (e.g. just starting out in Our First Ship), you still can either aim at the missile and shoot it or do evasive maneuvers especially that the starting First Ship usually a Fighter like the Nova which can dodge missiles more easily. Also the missile may be fast but its maneuverability isn't that high so you have a chance to outmaneuver it.

[LittleBird]

You can still (theoretically) dodge missiles that lead their target. You'd have to dodge them in slightly different ways, e.g. you could quickly decelerate to make the missile overshoot its target.

You can easily exploit missiles that lead their target the same way you can easily dodge laser shots where the AI computes the interception point.
Just roll an steer simultaneously.

In general, I hope that missiles in X4 are faster relative to ships than they are in X3. I always felt it was odd that ships would routinely outrun missiles in X3.

Pick specific missles for specific ship classes. If the missle is to slow it is meant for a higher ship class. If it is way to fast it does just minor damage.
If you keep the ship classes in mind almost every missle is faster. Outrunning impossible.

[X-Raptor]

You can still (theoretically) dodge missiles that lead their target. You'd have to dodge them in slightly different ways, e.g. you could quickly decelerate to make the missile overshoot its target.

You can easily exploit missiles that lead their target the same way you can easily dodge laser shots where the AI computes the interception point.
Just roll an steer simultaneously.

[Edit]

This may be true but for only dumb-fire missiles in which case they are cheaper and are meant for heavier (i.e. less maneuverable) targets. But for the tracking missiles, you can't easily exploit them as you say.

So remember that there are two missile categories: Dumb-fire Missiles and Tracking Missiles. The dumb-fire missiles really need that 'missile lead the target' technique or otherwise those missiles will often miss the target (which means loss of Credits). And for the tracking missiles, they may be either Heat-Seekers in which case they won't lead the target, they instead follow the target, or advanced tracking missiles that should use the 'intersection point' technique while they are still not as much maneuverable as the heat-seekers.

[csaba]

I don't know for X:R because I never really could get into playing it for too long.

They are the same in XR. Almost useless against targets smaller than an M ship.

I myself am not sure we should make missiles smarter. While you can still dodge them, you could easily have dozens shot at you in a regular game even without pissing off something like an M7M. Large capital ships will likely have several Astrobee launchers as well. Making them path predict could lead to players never wanting to engage capital ships in small fast ships.

Better just make anti fighter missiles faster, they would still hit the target even if they are nose pointing.

[Phoynix]

Thats something in say X3 sucked, as a fighter you could take down any capital ship and they didn't feel dangerous.
If missiles are made to be more effective(they were a waste of credits in x3 against smaller ships) and that made capitals feel tougher, then good I say.

If the Turrets are not utter crap accuracy wise both the player/NPC can use a turret as a point defence.
You go from missiles being pathetic to dangerous but capable of being dealt with. Hell its not like you can't target and shoot missiles themselves, making missiles an actual danger then requires a response isn't a bad thing.

I don't know for X:R because I never really could get into playing it for too long.

They are the same in XR. Almost useless against targets smaller than an M ship.

I myself am not sure we should make missiles smarter. While you can still dodge them, you could easily have dozens shot at you in a regular game even without pissing off something like an M7M. Large capital ships will likely have several Astrobee launchers as well. Making them path predict could lead to players never wanting to engage capital ships in small fast ships.

Better just make anti fighter missiles faster, they would still hit the target even if they are nose pointing.

[X-Raptor]

Also remember that, in X4, there is boosting which is an excellent way for dodging missiles even if they are 'intercept, not follow' type.

Another thing is that for the missiles being more effective, while some people dislike those smarter missiles for being more dangerous, it's very good for the Player so your missiles could have better chances to hit enemy targets (higher hit efficiency) otherwise wasting them and wasting your credits.

[csaba]

Well yea it's better for the player to use but it is better for the AI as well.

We also need better missile indication than what was in XR. The initial sound drops as the enemy release the missile, the sound for incoming is too late and quite. It doesn't matter if you boost away the missile will turn around and find you even without the ahead pointing. Best examples are trying to board Balors. Every time you do the hacking minigame it's a risk you'll die since novadrones fly around for 20 kms before they die. The Balor could have shot those missiles 5 minutes ago and they would still find you because you droped your guard.


We saw countermeasures as well but I'd rather not turn X games into "don't forget to pack you flares" game.

Faster missiles are better as they make them useful all the while you can still dodge them albeit harder than in previous games. Dodging missiles becomes a skill just as dodging plasma fire from capital ships. It requires more skill than pressing the flare button.

Dodging slow moving ahead targeting missiles is way harder, you need to turn in an angle that it cannot follow while forward thinking at that exact distance. They are hard to dodge, it's better to run them out with boosting.

Fast moving pointing missiles are easier to dodge but you need to react fast.

Combine the 2 and you get Jet simulator where only flares can save you.

[Slashman]

We saw countermeasures as well but I'd rather not turn X games into "don't forget to pack you flares" game.

And I say some sort of ECM/Flares are exactly what we need. In fact is it is unrealistic that no one thought of hacking a missile or decoying it in mid flight in the whatever century the X games take place in.

Well counter measures are in so it doesn't really matter either way.

[csaba]

We saw countermeasures as well but I'd rather not turn X games into "don't forget to pack you flares" game.

And I say some sort of ECM/Flares are exactly what we need. In fact is it is unrealistic that no one thought of hacking a missile or decoying it in mid flight in the whatever century the X games take place in.

Well counter measures are in so it doesn't really matter either way.

I don't mind ECM/flares just in a game with limited cargo capacity the last thing I need is to always reserve space for them and make them mandatory to survive. I want to be able to dodge missiles when I'm flying fast ships and only use them when I'm low on shields and can't boost.