9 Steam Curators have reviewed X4

[StoneLegionYT]

I'm all fine with people reviewing the game based on a shorter game time, as long as it's made clear that they have actually tried to play the game and for whatever stated reasons they gave up with it.

I think we can all agree though, that it's ridiculous for people to have already "reviewed" X4 when it's not even out yet and they haven't even played for ONE single MINUTE

Keep in mind that these are not really reviews but recommendations. I mean their used for both but still it's a broken steam system that should be removed but is instead just got to craps like most of steam community features.

[Vandragorax]

^^ Yup totally agree. Valve need to pull their fingers out and stop with all these weird social experiments, because they never work properly - since people are generally idiots lol

[csaba]

^^ Yup totally agree. Valve need to pull their fingers out and stop with all these weird social experiments, because they never work properly - since people are generally idiots lol

Like Valve did anything the past 4 years... I bet it's a bot that does all the paperwork and negotiates the margins when developers want to post new games.... Steam is like the perfect money printing station from the X games at this point.

[sd_jasper]

Wow that's a long post... I'm going to have to break this up to answer/discuss...

Sadly but fact STEAM has become the Amazon of the gaming industry and I'm not sure how this has been allowed. I would like to see the EU community boffins get a grip of this platform and impose restrictions on them as they a law unto themselves imo.

What? Sorry I don't under stand what you are saying here. What does it mean to be the "Amazon of the gaming industry"?

There is nothing you can do as a gamer if the only way to buy a game is through Steam then as box set stop being the norm and companies save on distribution this Steam effect will become a disease we can not cure in the future.

Sorry, but I still don't get what you are saying. Steam might be the top digital distributor, but they have competition. Every X game has been released on GOG. It would not surprise me if X4 doesn't get a release there sooner or later.

The terms and condition for gamer's buying on Steam is nothing short of criminal and they have been allowed to get away with it and I feel this is another reason gaming companies use Steam as they know once a game has been sold whether it's good or bad once the consumer has accessed it for more than two hours you lose the right to refund!

First off, what's criminal? Not getting a refund? I've been a PC gamer for long time, and long before digital distribution, PC games were not allowed to get refunds. It was too easy to just copy the disks and then return them, so almost every retailer didn't allow refunds on PC games. In fact for a long time you couldn't get refunds on any media that could be copied if it was opened. I tried to return a damaged DVD a few years back and couldn't get a refund! Many digital products offer no refunds, at all.

Is two hours enough time to know if a game is good or bad? Certainly you don't know if the "end game" of an MMO is good in 2 hours, or if the empire building in an X game works... but many other games can be easily beaten in under 2 hours. In those cases, the steam refund policy is essentially letting people play a game for free! So it isn't perfect... but I feel that 2 hours is enough time to get a taste of the game.

The fact that Steam allows these people to even discuss the game before it is in the public domain is also a breach of consumer confidence by a small minority who feel they are above the law or manipulate system to allow them to gain Kudos when in fact they are just idiots looking for hit to enhance they rewards and following.

I don't think you are using "public domain" correctly. And what's the problem? Curators are recommending a game that isn't out? Should YouTube also take down all the videos by people that are excited for X4? Can I recommend a game to my friends before it is released based on what I know about the game? Or would you prefer that I be subject to criminal charges for having a less than 100% informed opinion?

The fact that people lack the ability to even hold meaningful conversation anymore these days sadly it just goes to show that so called social media is in fact anti social in many ways people have lost or are losing the art of communication and the longer it is allowed to continue the worse it will get whether it be in gaming or just everyday things. It's easy for anyone to misinterpret something written and offend folks which then spiraels into a troll fest for the for's and against and rather than being a debate become a witch hunt and this is the case 99% of the time for the reviews on Steam. I only use Steam to login to games now I never use the social side of it unless it's to talk to folks I'm already connected too. I do not join groups or even discuss games whether I like them or not I have stopped leaving any feedback on games.

Okay, I could go on for days about the ills of social media... but this is really drifting off the core discussion here....

Most of my comments on games have come after hundreds of hours game play and I feel I'm able to give a good assessment after playing for over 200 plus hours anyone leaving feedback with less than 100 hours should be ignored imo. I feel people should use a little bit of common sense rather than just jumping into pre ordering a game these day and not fall for the sales tactic so many of the selling platforms offering shiny bits of crap to tempt you to order in advance. Wait for the games to release then watch live streams of people actually playing the game for a few days and then make your decision on whether to buy it or not at least that way you won't fall into the Steam two hour trap and will always get value for money. I pre ordered XR installed it and got called out to work and left my PC on for 18 hours returned home then tried to play the game and it kept crashing on me I tired for 2 weeks to get a refund with screen shots and evidence I'd been at work but Steam were not interested so I treat Steam with the disrespect it now deserves and use it only when I am forced to.

Yeah, isn't it great that steam shows how many hours a person has played in the reviews?

Personally I believe as consumers we should vote with our wallets not our mouth as this has a better and direct impact,

Well, there we agree.

sadly many people lack the ability to constrain themselves due to the society we have been brought up in. We are guilty of the must have syndrome and whilst it's not for me to dictate who and where people should buy things they want or need I feel we are all seduced by the media.

Now I think we've gotten to the heart of the matter. Blame the media, blame society, it doesn't really matter. What it really boils down to is that people make choices you disagree with. They vote with their dollars on something you don't. You say you don't want to dictate the buying habits of others, but you advocate legislation that IMO amounts to the same thing.

Look I don't like micro-transactions, so I don't buy games with them. I don't like reality TV, so I don't watch it. But enough people do like these things that I doubt they are going away anytime soon, and I'm okay with that. I don't want to control others, and there are plenty of other choices. In fact there is greater volume of every type of entertainment that I consume, and of the type I like, coming out now than I can ever remember. So, I'm a lot more "picky" than I use to be. I don't buy every new 'AAA' game. I buy what I want, and ignore the rest. And I'm a lot happier not worrying about how others are spending their money.

[Sandalpocalypse]

Curators are just "if you like X you might like Y", except done by people instead of an algorithm. Not much different from tags. Nothing to get worked up over.

[spankahontis]

Pretty much all the Games Reviewers have to pander to the Editors who in turn Editors have to pay lip service to Games Companies, unless they are small companies like Egosoft, they can pretty much use as sacrificial lambs.

7 out of 10 for a crap game that they are not allowed to drop any further to 6 or below as they would lose their exclusive with the games company, no flying off to a 5 star hotel, no early-access of the game.
You can't trust them cause the Games Companies got them by the balls, again, unless you're a small independent company then they don't have to worry about being Blacklisted, many pick on the small companies just to prove they are not restrained by companies, that they can go past 7 out of 10 once in a while.

Zaric Zhakaron has done a few good videos about the Game Review culture.

[spankahontis]

What? Sorry I don't under stand what you are saying here. What does it mean to be the "Amazon of the gaming industry"?

I think what he means by that is Amazon is one of the richest most powerful companies for buying/selling wares on the planet.
I'm sure there must be alternatives out there, Ebay Etc.
There are companies out there that do what Steam do, GOG, DirecttoDrive, plus companies like Humble Bundle for those that don't want to be slaves to just one avenue of Game Purchase.
I don't like Steam simply because I've been personally used to having a 30 day warranty on my games in the past, 2 hours just isn't enough time to make a valid decision on whether I like a game or not? It's just not. Even Shadow Warriors took me 3 hours to realise what a pile of steaming tunky it was and that's the worst First Person I've ever played in my life.

Plus the thought of buying digital and owning nothing but a Terms of Service Agreement that Steam has the power to withdraw if they feel like it. All those Games in your collection go poof with your account.
So I can relate to what Billy is saying, not owning a physical copy in my Hand is pretty creepy and invites video game Piracy to fill the gap.

First off, what's criminal? Not getting a refund? I've been a PC gamer for long time, and long before digital distribution, PC games were not allowed to get refunds. It was too easy to just copy the disks and then return them, so almost every retailer didn't allow refunds on PC games. In fact for a long time you couldn't get refunds on any media that could be copied if it was opened. I tried to return a damaged DVD a few years back and couldn't get a refund! Many digital products offer no refunds, at all.

Is two hours enough time to know if a game is good or bad? Certainly you don't know if the "end game" of an MMO is good in 2 hours, or if the empire building in an X game works... but many other games can be easily beaten in under 2 hours. In those cases, the steam refund policy is essentially letting people play a game for free! So it isn't perfect... but I feel that 2 hours is enough time to get a taste of the game.

What Country are you from?
In the UK, If I bought Retail and I didn't like it within 30 days? As long as I kept the receipt then I was legally entitled under Trading Standards to get a full refund of the purchase.
If this Right has somehow changed? Then we have seriously 'regressed' in or Consumer Rights and we should be worried. Companies have a way of taking the Yard and having only a couple of hours to decide instead of 30 days, I wouldn't go as far as saying "Criminal" as it would suggest a crime has been committed buy it's "Immoral" from a Consumer Rights standpoint.
We should NEVER allow the Government to bow their Heads to Companies and rob us of this basic Right as a consumer.

Is two hours enough time to know if a game is good or bad? Certainly you don't know if the "end game" of an MMO is good in 2 hours, or if the empire building in an X game works... but many other games can be easily beaten in under 2 hours. In those cases, the steam refund policy is essentially letting people play a game for free! So it isn't perfect... but I feel that 2 hours is enough time to get a taste of the game.

Which makes the argument that 2 hours is a reasonable time? As a complete folly. Companies attacking our Rights to a refund.
Because there is a Main reason why People buy a game? Re-Playability! Nothing else matters after that.. I don't buy games I intend to throw away after a week.

For example, I bought FF7 when I was a kid, at first I didn't like it.
I had a weekend to think about it before my mam would send me to Chips (The game store) for a refund as I had 30 days.
And so I thought "What the hell?" and hammered the game over the weekend, didn't even reach Disc 2 of 3 and I saw for the first time my first taste of an open world game and fell in love with the game.
I replayed that game around 20 times to unlock all the secret Weapon Battles Emerald, Ruby, Ultima Etc.

Had I not liked the game and it was Steam then i'd be stuck with it. Digitally wise Steam reserves the Right to withhold my access of the Game if they choose? That's madness!
Steam ever did that to me, then i'd know that my Rights as a consumer would not be worth the paper it's printed on. A big win for Game Piracy!

Heck I don't even know how one sells a game second hand on Steam from a retail copy? If that is a no-no?
I know from watching a few Jim Sterlings that certain Companies have made it so they lock you out of a second hand purchase.
The Game Industry has been getting more and more shady every year and Consumer Rights are being eroded away. Retail Watchdogs need to intervene if it gets to the point where it's just snakeoil salesman.

Personally the idea of a "Netflix for everything" model sounds like a perfect solution.

Now I think we've gotten to the heart of the matter. Blame the media, blame society, it doesn't really matter. What it really boils down to is that people make choices you disagree with. They vote with their dollars on something you don't. You say you don't want to dictate the buying habits of others, but you advocate legislation that IMO amounts to the same thing.

Look I don't like micro-transactions, so I don't buy games with them. I don't like reality TV, so I don't watch it. But enough people do like these things that I doubt they are going away anytime soon, and I'm okay with that. I don't want to control others, and there are plenty of other choices. In fact there is greater volume of every type of entertainment that I consume, and of the type I like, coming out now than I can ever remember. So, I'm a lot more "picky" than I use to be. I don't buy every new 'AAA' game. I buy what I want, and ignore the rest. And I'm a lot happier not worrying about how others are spending their money.

Everyone thinks they can rule the World better than the next person, it gets boring arguing that logic to them
But I totally agree, you don't like it you don't buy it, you don't watch it, you don't endorse it Etc.

I agree Micro-Transactions belong to Free to Play Games. They have no place in a PC/Console Game, as well as Loot Crates that are just gambling and i'm glad the EU is taking matters seriously on this. Addictive personality Disorder is a real thing and among Gamers, rampant. To exploit the Minds of gamers like this who they refer to as "Whales" and "Dolphins" is the scummy side of the Games Industry. Again Jim Sterling has done a ton of videos on this and how getting rid of Micro-Transactions wouldn't effect these Companies Profits, they're nothing more than Icing on the Cake of an already BIG Cake.
But in the End, they exist because kids will buy them and they need to understand that they are being manipulated by shrewd Marketing psychology. Sure, give them what they want, but convincing them what they want even if it's against their better judgement is creepy and dark.

[sd_jasper]

Too much to reply to at the moment... so I'll just skip to what I think are the key points:

Which makes the argument that 2 hours is a reasonable time? As a complete folly. Companies attacking our Rights to a refund.
Because there is a Main reason why People buy a game? Re-Playability! Nothing else matters after that.. I don't buy games I intend to throw away after a week.

1) I'm from the US, and have bough games from EB Games, Best Buy, Gamestop, Fry's, and others. I don't think any of them have ever allowed refunds on PC games. At most they offer to replace your copy if it is damaged.

2) I don't believe in a "Right to a refund".

3) Many, many people don't replay games. The VAST majority of gamers don't even complete most games. I think it is something like only 10% of gamers finish their games (for games that have endings). And a smaller percent are going to go back and play them over. You may be an exception. And there may be some games that buck the trend... but overall that isn't what most people do.

[spankahontis]

Too much to reply to at the moment... so I'll just skip to what I think are the key points:

Which makes the argument that 2 hours is a reasonable time? As a complete folly. Companies attacking our Rights to a refund.
Because there is a Main reason why People buy a game? Re-Playability! Nothing else matters after that.. I don't buy games I intend to throw away after a week.

1) I'm from the US, and have bough games from EB Games, Best Buy, Gamestop, Fry's, and others. I don't think any of them have ever allowed refunds on PC games. At most they offer to replace your copy if it is damaged.

2) I don't believe in a "Right to a refund".

3) Many, many people don't replay games. The VAST majority of gamers don't even complete most games. I think it is something like only 10% of gamers finish their games (for games that have endings). And a smaller percent are going to go back and play them over. You may be an exception. And there may be some games that buck the trend... but overall that isn't what most people do.

PC/Console, all games in the UK are/were covered by a 30 Day Guarantee, replacements were simply optional, you had choice.
Unless it changed any retail copy of a game has or (had) in the UK a 30 day money back guarantee and that's reasonable, we can argue how many hours/days we should have until we can no longer claim a refund.. But 2 Hours is insulting to me. You have a different view down to where your born so what I see as absurd is normal to you.. But I simply find protections against Snake Oil Salesman as essential to a modern country, being intentionally sold broken gear and have no legal challenge to it is backwards. People go to Prison for Shoplifting, why should selling us dodgy gear get a free pass to you?

What I have learned from Childhood, I remember Jet Set Willy on the Commodore 64, the game was workable but broken, you couldn't complete it cause certain rubbish items you had to pick up was in areas that were unreachable or getting back down would cost you one of your 10 lives and I never even knew they later released a version that was fixed. But I still paid full price for a broken Game, no refund.
Double Dragon 2 on Commodore 64 was another, crashed on the last level, literally 40% of games my mam bought me growing up were broken and never refunded.. They could get away with that if the Player wasn't any good at Games, but most games I could complete and I saw these flaws in the base game. Back then Games Companies could get away with murder, then things changed. And i'm glad they have, I lost ALLOT of money on broken games over the last 30-35 years, hundreds of pounds.

That's not morally Right and you should NEVER defend that!
You're giving con-artists free license to rob you, that's why we have protections over here.
America seems more anti-regulation from those I've talked to, they put up with it and they shouldn't. They code it as "red tape" to give consumer protections a negative spin.

And third and final, What's your source on this 10%?
if they don't replay the game after they've bought it?
Then they've bought a bad game and it should be refunded. I've played games I've never completed simply because they're crap and I never pick them up again. These Games I send back because they hold no value to me.
I'd never settle for that, and i'm not an exception to that, Jasper.. I simply practice my Consumer Rights on principle and if i'm a minority then that's only because people are too polite, they don't want to rock the boat!! When they should!!
You let them get away with robbing you then things wont change! And if what you say is true and I account for 10% of the Consumer Market.. Then so what? All it shows is People aren't educated on their Rights as consumers or don't have the motivation to fight back when they're robbed.

And like I said I have experienced 30+ years of this crap and have lost 100's of pounds (Possibly over a 1000 pounds) on defective games, it is an outrage! And if people aren't angry they dam well should be!!
Your House gets burgled and they punish you rather than the Burglar then you'd be bating for Blood! You'd get in touch with your local politicians and fight back.

All this could be solved if they had a Netflix style website where for a monthly subscription you could play any game you liked?
Steam could solve this problem with refunds overnight if they rolled out a subscription service.

[TrixX]

PLEASE BE AWARE that some things I am about to say may offend some people so please do not take what I am about to write personally it's just me pointing out my feelings about a situation and if you are easily offended then please ignore my post!!! Also apologies for the long post but hey wanted to say how I feel, like to see what others feel about this too thanks for reading in advance.


I would like to see the EU community boffins get a grip of this platform and impose restrictions on them as they a law unto themselves imo.

Not offended. Repulsed by the thought you consider the idiots in the EU could have any idea what's going on with Steam or anything outside their little insanity bubble in Strasbourg when they table stuff like Article 11 and Article 13 having zero concept of the full ramifications just in an attempt to hold power over the other nation states and control the flow of information.

Everything else you said was pretty much disqualified as soon as you typed this.

[Sandalpocalypse]

Steams refund policy is pretty much just cuz of europe, so.

[TrixX]

Steams refund policy is pretty much just cuz of europe, so.

Not sure how that's relevant to this. The other dude is literally demanding legislation to protect himself from an inability to think critically. If you can't pick a curator who's joking or is a troll (there's one called Cmdr Shepherd taking the piss using a Mass Effect joke to recommend everything, the Fortnite guy is just the inverse joke) then there's far bigger problems.

The Steam refund policy was never really much of an issue unless there was a truly broken product (something now common Steam but not when the refund policy was enacted). Even then it would have been enacted anyway without EU nonsense.

[caldersey]

In the UK, If I bought Retail and I didn't like it within 30 days? As long as I kept the receipt then I was legally entitled under Trading Standards to get a full refund of the purchase.

That's not quite right. Under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 you are only legally entitled to a refund within 30 days if the product is non working or faulty, if you're returning it simply because you changed your mind then a refund is down to the goodwill of the retailer.

[Cycrow]

In the UK, If I bought Retail and I didn't like it within 30 days? As long as I kept the receipt then I was legally entitled under Trading Standards to get a full refund of the purchase.

That's not quite right. Under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 you are only legally entitled to a refund within 30 days if the product is non working or faulty, if you're returning it simply because you changed your mind then a refund is down to the goodwill of the retailer.

not quite right either. You are only entitled to a remedy if its inherently faulty. Within the first 6 months, its assumed it is and upto the retailer to prove otherwise, after 6 months its upto the consumer to prove that its faulty.
The remedy could be a refund, repair, or replacement, there is no guarantee of getting a refund.

[DaMuncha]

Quotes

Not GOTY. Life is short. Don't play any games before you've played the best games

100% cutting-edge hardcore gaming, because "indie" games are garbage.

Space offers the finest opportunities for man-on-man love.

Not Fortnite. Why play it then? Don't play any game unless it is Fortnite.

---

In NZ we have the fair trading act. In regards to refunds/returns you are allowed to return any goods within a week if your not happy with them. that also applies to food tho most people dont return food unless its spoiled. You can return goods within a year if they do not work as intended, are damaged, they dont do what they were advertised to do, or if you were told by a seller that it did something it doesnt do. Its been the law since the 1960s but most foreigners who set up businesses here dont know or understand the fair trading act, and frankly dont care. I know, I worked for one who broke every trading law there is.

THIS ALSO APPLIES TO GOODS/SERVICES/PRODUCTS THAT ARE SOLD TO/WITHIN OUR COUNTRY BY A COMPANY BASED IN ANOTHER COUNTRY, i.e. Steam/Valve/Egosoft, but its extremely hard to get a refund for software as most of those companies are not in our country. Steams policy to refuse to give refunds if game has been played for more than 2 hours is against the law here but no one is gonna take Valve to court.

[Roguey]

I guess we just have to wait for the official reviews..

[Zloth2]

Looks like only 8 curators now. I was already ignoring 3 of them and just added a bunch more.

[Deeparth]

"Space offers the finest opportunities for man-on-man love."

[spankahontis]

In the UK, If I bought Retail and I didn't like it within 30 days? As long as I kept the receipt then I was legally entitled under Trading Standards to get a full refund of the purchase.

That's not quite right. Under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 you are only legally entitled to a refund within 30 days if the product is non working or faulty, if you're returning it simply because you changed your mind then a refund is down to the goodwill of the retailer.

not quite right either. You are only entitled to a remedy if its inherently faulty. Within the first 6 months, its assumed it is and upto the retailer to prove otherwise, after 6 months its upto the consumer to prove that its faulty.
The remedy could be a refund, repair, or replacement, there is no guarantee of getting a refund.

It's still a better policy than being stuck with it, It's amazing that the best policy they have in the US is the 2 Hour Guarantee on Steam. It's like they enjoy being robbed over there.
I remember how it felt to be sold a broken game and feel powerless to contest it.
No law expert so the Consumer Rights 2015 Act must of changed things in previous Acts cause I could simply take it back in the past to the store I bought it from with my receipt and everything was sorted.

Quotes

Not GOTY. Life is short. Don't play any games before you've played the best games

100% cutting-edge hardcore gaming, because "indie" games are garbage.

Space offers the finest opportunities for man-on-man love.

Not Fortnite. Why play it then? Don't play any game unless it is Fortnite.

---

In NZ we have the fair trading act. In regards to refunds/returns you are allowed to return any goods within a week if your not happy with them. that also applies to food tho most people dont return food unless its spoiled. You can return goods within a year if they do not work as intended, are damaged, they dont do what they were advertised to do, or if you were told by a seller that it did something it doesnt do. Its been the law since the 1960s but most foreigners who set up businesses here dont know or understand the fair trading act, and frankly dont care. I know, I worked for one who broke every trading law there is.

THIS ALSO APPLIES TO GOODS/SERVICES/PRODUCTS THAT ARE SOLD TO/WITHIN OUR COUNTRY BY A COMPANY BASED IN ANOTHER COUNTRY, i.e. Steam/Valve/Egosoft, but its extremely hard to get a refund for software as most of those companies are not in our country. Steams policy to refuse to give refunds if game has been played for more than 2 hours is against the law here but no one is gonna take Valve to court.

Better law than us, the 1 Week rule seems fair to me.