egosoft.com

I was really hoping Egosoft would learn from the Rebirth fiasco. But it does not seem to be the case. A player posts a relevant request which many others shares and what he gets instead? He is immediately attacked by Egofanboys and even moderators.
Strange behavior from a company that should do anything possible to get players trust back. Not to mention that every time a company refuses to show any actual gameplay videos it has something to hide (e.g. ME Andromeda). It is a simple fact that has been proven time and again. It is also a fact that gameplay videos prior relase are becoming a standard. I could see gameplay from AC Odyssey a month before relase. And as I liked what I saw, I did not have a problem to order the game.
The most strange thing is that to fullfill this request does not require anything special, just put someone to a PC and let him record an hour of gameplay. From the main menu, through starting a new game, flying around, doing some missions and maybe some small upgrades to ship. Nothing more, nothing less. And if everyone is busy, then ask some tester to do it. Wait, there are testers, right?
But it seems Egosoft would rather face Steam refunds than spend one hour of reocrding. Well, it is their choice. My choice is to keep my wallet closed.

plynak wrote: ↑

Thu, 8. Nov 18, 08:13

I was really hoping Egosoft would learn from the Rebirth fiasco. But it does not seem to be the case. A player posts a relevant request which many others shares and what he gets instead? He is immediately attacked by Egofanboys and even moderators.
Strange behavior from a company that should do anything possible to get players trust back. Not to mention that every time a company refuses to show any actual gameplay videos it has something to hide (e.g. ME Andromeda). It is a simple fact that has been proven time and again. It is also a fact that gameplay videos prior relase are becoming a standard. I could see gameplay from AC Odyssey a month before relase. And as I liked what I saw, I did not have a problem to order the game.
The most strange thing is that to fullfill this request does not require anything special, just put someone to a PC and let him record an hour of gameplay. From the main menu, through starting a new game, flying around, doing some missions and maybe some small upgrades to ship. Nothing more, nothing less. And if everyone is busy, then ask some tester to do it. Wait, there are testers, right?
But it seems Egosoft would rather face Steam refunds than spend one hour of reocrding. Well, it is their choice. My choice is to keep my wallet closed.

Please, read some answers from Egosoft and try to understand them:

CBJ wrote: ↑

Wed, 7. Nov 18, 01:42

...
Here we go again. No, we are not being secretive, and especially not "this time around". We have talked about, and shown, far more about this game than we have ever done with any previous game, and we continue to do what we can, when we can. However, as has been explained on several occasions, the reason you're not seeing new information now is that we are a small team, and right now we're in full "crunch mode" doing all the things that have to be done in the last few weeks before release. Repeatedly saying that we ought to be doing X or Y because some other larger company does it isn't going to change that, nor is there a "lesson" that can be learnt that will magically free up resources to create, or even just review and edit, appropriate new material to show people. We would love to be able to do and show more, because we are not as oblivious to the benefits of marketing as some people seem to think, but we simply don't have that luxury.

Xenon_Slayer wrote: ↑

Wed, 7. Nov 18, 15:09

... I expect we'll be answering some of these questions closer to release (although we won't want to spoil anything special).

CBJ wrote: ↑

Sun, 4. Nov 18, 21:16

As a potential customer, you are entitled to be as cautious as you like. Nobody, least of all us, has a problem with that. But this thread has gone from reasonable caution to trying to claim that there's an information blackout, which is patently and demonstrably false. Not to mention people making up reasons why there's not as much new information forthcoming at the moment, when the reasons have been clearly stated.

I really love how people are convinced that they know what Ego should or should not do.

What way of promoting the game should Ego choose is up to them, and I am sure that they are 100% aware of pros and cons. No need to remind them of XR too (for maybe 2763982th time).
The decision to buy the game or not is, however, entirely ours and no one forces us to do it now. I am sure that gameplay videos will be available after release.

Summing up, I would welcome any gameplay video but in no way I am going to demand it from Egosoft.
Also remember that a video about PHQ was promised to us before release, so we should all keep our fingers crossed

barszcz wrote: ↑

Thu, 8. Nov 18, 10:39

Also remember that a video about PHQ was promised to us before release, so we should all keep our fingers crossed

If you really want a video outlining the Player HQ, maybe you should record a few shots of your computer desk? I know mine is my player HQ...

The only thing i'm hoping for is that Egosoft learned from X:R and doesn't make the same mistake twice.
It's getting closer now, only 12? days left for release and eventho i haven't pre-ordered and i don't have any expectations,
i'm really really hoping that Egosoft hits this one out of the park, and Foundations becomes a huge hit with great reviews.

But that remains to be seen. I'm still missing my worty successor of X3:Terran Conflict - best 4X game ever made (sofar ).

DavidGW wrote: ↑

Thu, 8. Nov 18, 12:52

barszcz wrote: ↑

Thu, 8. Nov 18, 10:39

Also remember that a video about PHQ was promised to us before release, so we should all keep our fingers crossed

If you really want a video outlining the Player HQ, maybe you should record a few shots of your computer desk? I know mine is my player HQ...

Well ok then how about this
https://imgur.com/a/GhaXw16

I dont think it counts tho.

Dreez wrote: ↑

Thu, 8. Nov 18, 13:51

It's getting closer now, only 12? days left for release

Watch out! You risk a heart attack by the devs.
22 Days are left. Release is Nov. 30.

LittleBird wrote: ↑

Thu, 8. Nov 18, 13:58

Dreez wrote: ↑

Thu, 8. Nov 18, 13:51

It's getting closer now, only 12? days left for release

Watch out! You risk a heart attack by the devs.
22 Days are left. Release is Nov. 30.

Exactly. He probably swapped release date with Battlefield 5 (20 Nov.)

So only 3 weeks from now .... it will be SOON (tm)

Ultimately it is the company who provides a product, and a customer who decides to purchase the product based on their views. This is the same for shoes, clothing, automobiles and even space rockets.

If you do not like what a company is doing, then carry on. While it may be nice for more videos, there will never be 100% fulfillment for every potential or current customer as everyone has different standards and tastes. We are human after all.

To clarify a few things about XR release:

- It was on a new engine so devs had little experience at the time compared to now
- The game was tested on a small number of computers as Egosoft is a small company this was the main cause of the performance issues
- Most refunds were claimed because of the performance issues
- The game got 20+ patches in the first 2 months
- XR VR was released on the Vulkan engine which X4 uses and that didn't have issues afaik (I don't have a VR set)


How this translates to this whole topic:
- If the devs release a gameplay video (as they did in the past year 3 times) you cannot check for performance issues since it will be on the PC they use and know
- No sane Devs will show bugs/glitches connected to the story or mechanics on screen. You can't check for those in a released gameplay video
- The only time they could have reliably shown bugs or glitches is at a live show which they skipped this year. We can do nothing about this anymore since release is around the corner. That could have also been a special dev version as well like NMS had with way more detailed creatures in their show version than in the actual game (Funnily enough some glitches were caught there on camera and people still bought the game) However I can totally understand the people who pointed to this lack of presentation.

Taking all these into account anyone skeptical here will(should) stay the same regardless if they put a 20 hour gameplay video on Youtube or not.

I bought the CE while knowing full well what to expect from an X game at launch. Anyone else who is just a little bit skeptical I ADVISE TO STAY AWAY from the game until us "Egosoft fanboys" (lol) post our experiences.

DaMuncha wrote: ↑

Thu, 8. Nov 18, 13:57

DavidGW wrote: ↑

Thu, 8. Nov 18, 12:52

barszcz wrote: ↑

Thu, 8. Nov 18, 10:39

Also remember that a video about PHQ was promised to us before release, so we should all keep our fingers crossed

If you really want a video outlining the Player HQ, maybe you should record a few shots of your computer desk? I know mine is my player HQ...

Well ok then how about this
https://imgur.com/a/GhaXw16

I dont think it counts tho.

Eww, there are used tissues crumpled on your desk (please God stop me from thinking about how they were used!). For crying out loud, there was an empty roll of toilet paper. Muncha, you should probably police that up before you let us view the inner sanctum of your little bachelor pad

csaba wrote: ↑

Thu, 8. Nov 18, 18:25

To clarify a few things about XR release:

- Most refunds were claimed because of the performance issues
- The game got 20+ patches in the first 2 months

How this translates to this whole topic:
- If the devs release a gameplay video (as they did in the past year 3 times) you cannot check for performance issues since it will be on the PC they use and know

I shortened it to highlight this point

And there you make a logical mistake.
Most refunds are based on the performance issues and bugs because they are the first problems you notice in a game. If it is technically unplayable you will never see other issues.
So you have to ask: Assumed X:Rebirth had zero performance issues and was bug free, would people have refunded it because of other things?
And there is a lot. Just remember what Egosoft patched gameplay wise and you have your answer.

So your argument that video material can not show performance issues and bugs is hardly relevant.
Video material is often polished. That is common sense. So nobody expects discovering bugs and glitches.

But refusing to show more video material has the feeling the game could be buggy.
Refusing to show game mechanics has the feeling they are poorly designed like in X-Rebirth (*cough* Minigames and cleptomania on stations *cough*)
And that is because the amount of information material on X-Rebirth was also low.
People now see similarities to the disastrous X-Rebirth launch.

Showing more video material could reduce such concerns even if everybody knows the material is hand-picked.

Understand this post as an explanation not a demand on Egosoft

LittleBird wrote: ↑

Thu, 8. Nov 18, 19:52

csaba wrote: ↑

Thu, 8. Nov 18, 18:25

To clarify a few things about XR release:

- Most refunds were claimed because of the performance issues
- The game got 20+ patches in the first 2 months

How this translates to this whole topic:
- If the devs release a gameplay video (as they did in the past year 3 times) you cannot check for performance issues since it will be on the PC they use and know

I shortened it to highlight this point

And there you make a logical mistake.
Most refunds are based on the performance issues and bugs because they are the first problems you notice in a game. If it is technically unplayable you will never see other issues.
So you have to ask: Assumed X:Rebirth had zero performance issues and was bug free, would people have refunded it because of other things?
And there is a lot. Just remember what Egosoft patched gameplay wise and you have your answer.

Understand this post as an explanation not a demand on Egosoft

- No they couldn't cause by design you need to play more than 2 hours to face most of those bugs/bad game mechanics at which point your steam refund will likely be voided.

- Also because of this design the Devs cannot show every aspect of gameplay cause it would be literally a several hour long video. They could ofc edit in the "important" stuff. However what's "important" is subjective.

-For example The sliders (which I hate btw) were not (or not properly) shown pre-XR launch. The Devs deemed it unnecessary to show, they obviously didn't think about it much at the time since they didn't change the damned thing in 3 years so they can still care less.

-For example they can edit out the travel time between the stations in a video for good reasons (don't want to spoil every ship pre launch) and there could be a dozen things happening there that could annoy someone while the ones doing the video bat no eye to it, find it not important enough to show

- Gameplay in a game like X4 is an evolving thing based on FEEDBACK. You can't give proper feedback unless you play the game. You can only make ASSUMPTIONS on a video. There were plenty of SUGGESTIONS (from experience with previous games )on this forum which the Developers probably read even if only the title

csaba wrote: ↑

Thu, 8. Nov 18, 20:27

- No they couldn't cause by design you need to play more than 2 hours to face most of those bugs/bad game mechanics at which point your steam refund will likely be voided.

You face the awfull minigames in your first hour for sure. You face the tedious i-hunting on stations, your stupid personal inventory in stations and you face all... two useless airvents.

csaba wrote: ↑

Thu, 8. Nov 18, 20:27

- Also because of this design the Devs cannot show every aspect of gameplay cause it would be literally a several hour long video. They could ofc edit in the "important" stuff. However what's "important" is subjective.

Nobody is asking for a presentation of everything.

csaba wrote: ↑

Thu, 8. Nov 18, 20:27

- Gameplay in a game like X4 is an evolving thing based on FEEDBACK. You can't give proper feedback unless you play the game. You can only make ASSUMPTIONS on a video. There were plenty of SUGGESTIONS (from experience with previous games )on this forum which the Developers probably read even if only the title

Showing the mechanics is also gameplay.
We saw the new map, a tiny bit of station building and ship equipment... that's it!

Now check X-Rebirth. Videos that explained the mechanics 2 months before release.
Honestly I can't believe it. Actually we had more shown of the game from X-Rebirth than X4!
I should stop digging further.

LittleBird wrote: ↑

Thu, 8. Nov 18, 22:17

csaba wrote: ↑

Thu, 8. Nov 18, 20:27

- No they couldn't cause by design you need to play more than 2 hours to face most of those bugs/bad game mechanics at which point your steam refund will likely be voided.

You face the awfull minigames in your first hour for sure. You face the tedious i-hunting on stations, your stupid personal inventory in stations and you face all... two useless airvents.

No you don't refund in that case in an Hour. I hated the sliders but I just avoided them until I realized they are necessary for getting upgrades for your NPCs which came way later. I probably didn't open my inventory for hours since there was no need for it. Vents I only did like once or twice and left the station. Other complaints were about the single ship being the Skunk but that was communicated a lot. The lazy capital ship "bridge" designs weren't apparent until you got your second Cap ship and realized it's the same damn docking area.

LittleBird wrote: ↑

Thu, 8. Nov 18, 22:17

csaba wrote: ↑

Thu, 8. Nov 18, 20:27

- Gameplay in a game like X4 is an evolving thing based on FEEDBACK. You can't give proper feedback unless you play the game. You can only make ASSUMPTIONS on a video. There were plenty of SUGGESTIONS (from experience with previous games )on this forum which the Developers probably read even if only the title

Showing the mechanics is also gameplay.
We saw the new map, a tiny bit of station building and ship equipment... that's it!

plus travel mode, the majority of ship classes, a bunch of walking around on docks, we saw the trading, there is screenshot here on the forums on the ship buying screen, boosting, FA off (or decoupled for SC players), adapting flight controls, SETA, a carrier launching fighters, a bunch of AI built stations, we know there are 3 main races, we know about 2 starting scenarios, we know about 2 paranid factions fighting to the death, Accelerators-Highways, we know how travel will be between sectors.

LittleBird wrote: ↑

Thu, 8. Nov 18, 22:17

Now check X-Rebirth. Videos that explained the mechanics 2 months before release.
Honestly I can't believe it. Actually we had more shown of the game from X-Rebirth than X4!

I Call BS. There was 1 25 minute video and a few 2-5 minutes ones for XR, X4 had so far 3 60+ minutes ones, 2 trailers +one extra gameplay video.
Please point out 1 thing pre launch XR videous showed X4 didn't show so far.

And again, this is a free and open forum. We are allowed to post our opinions, and others are allowed to post theirs, and people don't always agree. However, it's getting to a point where I kinda feel personally attacked for voicing my concerns, and how it makes me feel as a customer. As I said, I don't think Egosoft is withholding information to scam us out of money, and releasing information early can be both a boon and a detriment. It is ultimately their decision, and even if I don't agree with it, I still respect it. I'm not going to refund my pre-order because they don't show any new gameplay. I still believe in this game and want it to succeed. I'm just voicing my opinion.

It is entirely possible to experience bugs, glitches, and features you don't like within the first hour of gameplay. As mentioned, in X Rebirth, you experience the disorienting sliders, often empty air vents, and repetitive minigames within the first hour of gameplay. Within the first hour of No Man's Sky, I was chugging along at 15FPS, and my machine at the time was no slouch. I had pretty much experienced all the game had to offer.

Take a look at the market as well. Fallout 76 is a flaming bag, with bugs aplenty. They're also destroying the lore of the series, just because they can, and the game is 2 weeks away from release. I'd call it late Alpha, at best. Diablo Immortals is also ablaze, with Activision stock plummeting 7 points, and they're currently going through a PR nightmare. Battlefield 5 was incindiary in its own way as well, with its devs shoving in PC agendas and saying "This WAS World War 2, and if you don't like it, you're uneducated."

When I ask people if they ever tried the X series, they often say they either could not get past X3's "learning cliff," or say X Rebirth was an abysmal failure. Gaming has been going horribly this holiday season, with Red Dead Redemption 2 being the only exception so far. I think the timing is perfect for Egosoft to take center stage in time for the holiday season, and give this game and company great success and recognition. The problem is, no one really knows what to expect. Most comments I see are calling this "X Rebirth 2," in a derogatory sense. People say "Star Citizen: Gameplay Edition is looking great," or "Is this Elite: Dangerous?" Most of the posts I see on the forums are people asking genuine, non-spoiler questions, and getting either shot down or told to "just wait." Most of the posts are pure speculation on the Egosoft forums, and on Steam, it's mostly memes.

Egosoft doesn't have to release more information if they don't want to. However, the community today isn't the same as it was 10 years ago. People are more leery of games and developers, especially when they seem silent, even if that silence means they're doubling down on polishing their game. People don't take developers at their word, after hearing "Yes" and "It just works" one too many times.

@csaba
I did the highlighting not just for fun.
The most time we saw graphics but not the actual game. Not gameplay. Not the mechanics.
That is what the X-Rebirth videos provided.

@ZombiePotatoSalad

I'm sorry if I ever upset you it was never my intention.

I just don't agree with some of your statements. Egosoft withholding information for one. After over 3 hours of QAs, videos and screenshots it is just wrong to say so. People also pointed out those are mostly a year old, but I'd like to remind all these people that it would be actually a scam if they don't include all those things in the game. I'd also imagine that they would announce something major changed like if they'd withdraw for example the map control feature.

Experiences differ from person to person. I usually take it slow especially with sandbox games like X, if I don't like 1 part of the game I move along and do something else. I guess patience is not a virtue anymore so I accept your and LittleBirds comments on possible refunds connected to unacceptable content.

Your point on triple A titles is iffy in my eyes. Egosoft never seemed to shoot for this position. They actually tried it with XR with AAA style marketing but it backfired on them and I think they learnt from that and so we see more QAs now. They look like more of a small band of friends doing something they like than something faceless these days like Activision. (First time I heard of Immortal, Jesus, left a few dislikes on YT , I grew up on D2 even before knowing about X games existed. ) While we all whish great success for their games it doesn't look like they would suddenly just turn into a large company like Blizz did after WoW if X4 would rack in the money.

What non-regular X playing people say about the learning curve and the XRebirth failure is connected to Egosoft being a small company. They don't have several big hits behind them so people don't talk about them a lot. If you would ask someone who Egosoft is 1 out of 100 gamers might know who they are. This has the effect that they only hear some rumors and bad rumors stick like glue. You wont hear how they fixed XR, what they added, the free TO expansion to preorderers, or the performance fixes they did. Honestly the only good feedback I get from these people is usually X3TC being a decent game and that is also very rarely.

If anything they failed to point out that they already have 3 hours of material on YT when they dropped the release trailer. That's a big mistake. I actually commented under ObsidiAnt's video about X4 where he mentioned station's not being talked about a lot while there is about 30 minutes of it in one of their videos.

LittleBird wrote:@csaba
I did the highlighting not just for fun.
The most time we saw graphics but not the actual game. Not gameplay. Not the mechanics.
That is what the X-Rebirth videos provided.

I listed 2 rows of mechanics that were shown man.... I need to go to sleep but I can timetable and link each one tomorrow night if you like.

LittleBird wrote: ↑

Thu, 8. Nov 18, 22:17

We saw the new map, a tiny bit of station building and ship equipment... that's it!

Now check X-Rebirth. Videos that explained the mechanics 2 months before release.

I think that's an illusion.

First I've seen more new features from X4 then you're mentioning. But the thing is those are only new features. When Rebirth was about to be released they've shown many things and ALL of them were new. That's what creates illusion they've shown more.

In X4 videos you see those things too but you take them for granted. You've seen drones loading capitals, but you don't mention it because it's known. You see highways (now without minigame) but again, known so you don't mention it. Sector/zones, minimap, different cargo types, gravity well, separately shielded turrets, capital parts to destroy, "city complexes", scanning station parts, trading ship UI, ship crew ... all those things are on X4 videos as well but you overlook them now as those are not new features. And that was ALL Rebirth videos had (that plus Skunk and Yisha is all Rebirth had on release).

Truly, for people who left Rebirth after release (and still have PTSD until today) the best new feature reading are Steam guides explaining 2.0, 3.0 and 4.0 features. To get into what will be in X4 in some form.

And then watch X4 videos showing new map, new station layout planning (as the rest will be the same as in late Rebirth, just go see Rebirth station building tutorials to see complete station building beyond the X4's new planning thing), ship equipment, new traveling modes/SETA, cockpit + in/out walking, capital bridges + capital control, flyable ships (you've somehow forgot about the most important X4 feature ), spacesuit, flight assist off mode. And more new features and changes are known from Q&A/text (not shown on videos). Those are just neat things I care

Alci wrote: ↑

Fri, 9. Nov 18, 02:25

LittleBird wrote: ↑

Thu, 8. Nov 18, 22:17

We saw the new map, a tiny bit of station building and ship equipment... that's it!

Now check X-Rebirth. Videos that explained the mechanics 2 months before release.

I think that's an illusion.

First I've seen more new features from X4 then you're mentioning. But the thing is those are only new features. When Rebirth was about to be released they've shown many things and ALL of them were new. That's what creates illusion they've shown more.

And I think you are partly right.
Many things you mentioned I would classify as "graphics" because the game mechanics behind them were not shown.

I wanna see how trading works, I wanna see how fabrics work.
I wanna see how the AI manages evading complex structures.
I wanna see how the reputation system works.

In short. Systems and game mechanics. Crucial parts where X-Rebirth could not deliver.