capital ship gravity draft removes combat challenge

[Len5]

How much of a blindspot do capships have if they're protected by swarms of drones?

[adeine]

They have "huge powerful engines" which easily beat fighters when running at full speed (i.e. boosting). Even with mk5 supercharged engines it would be impossible to keep up with my freighter for long without it (I have on occasion drifted just a little too far, been left behind & had to try to catch up).

It's not just about stealing other people's stuff, it's also damn handy for flying in formation with my own capitals on long journeys. It's also one of those things that's very easy to avoid using if you don't like it. Certainly very rare for me to use it offensively, generally prefer to avoid being a slow moving or stationary target if there are hostile capitals with lots of guns in the vicinity - hence those mk5 supercharged engines.

Hope it's still present in X4.

Larger ships are faster than small ships in X:R?

Oh dear.

This sounds like a poor decision in so many ways, gameplay-wise. Not only does it make piracy irrelevant (want to catch my heavy freighter with your fighters? well, let me just run away), but it also makes scout ships completely useless. Whereas previously in an X fleet it made sense to have fast scout vessels to clear the area or shield for missiles/whatnot, there'd be no point if your capital ships are faster at getting around (and manoeuvrability doesn't matter since you have turrets). It also makes flying small ships yourself pointless because if you make a capship angry, you won't be able to get away.

While I haven't played it myself, the more I read about this "feature" it seems to be a hacky workaround for bad design. Not to mention it's kind of weird and unpredictable from a control standpoint.

[Killjaeden]

Do we want a game that only a "super elite" with superb reflexes and flying / fighting skills can enjoy.

I explained it's easier with gravity draft. I suggested the option to turn it off - and more universally - adjustable difficulty options in general. Your rant is completely unwarranted.

[Sandalpocalypse]

its very predictable and much easier to control than the alternative.

Capital ships are only faster strategically, not tactically.

XR capital ships have few actual blindspots (even ignoring drones), but its relatively easy to create some by destroying turrets. What actually controls this is that you don't necessarily get a lot of benefit from just destroying a capital vs boarding it, and boarding requires much more widespread destruction of surface elements. Xenon K have to be destroyed but are fairly likely to be engaging in the vicinity of a station which provides the raw firepower.

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

@Killjaeden

Oh dear the selective quote and call it ranting so that the rest of the post can be dismissed tactic. How sad.

If I recall correctly you think that X-Rebirth was a "huge failure", that you don't actually play the game. So the OP in this thread is pure speculation on your part, it is not based on fact or even your own experience.

Myself and others have used this feature to allow us to fast travel along side a capital ship. Indeed I have seen capitals boosting with their own fighter support using this technique. It allows a capital to deploy its support very quickly once boosting stops.

Seems to me this is just another in a long line of its not in X3 so it shouldn't be in X4 type threads. Which to my mind is saddening as modders usually bring new game-play and innovation to the series, it
just seems that some of them, don't like Egosoft doing the same.

[GCU Grey Area]

While I haven't played it myself, the more I read about this "feature" it seems to be a hacky workaround for bad design.

Personally would never even consider going onto a forum & posting at length about features in game I have never played. You are in fact entirely wrong about everything you posted. Piracy of capital ships is far from irrelevant (indeed it can be a lot of fun). Small ships have useful roles. As for not being able to get away from capitals, you're simply ignorant about how capital ship boosters work & the circumstances in which they can be activated. Why not try the free XR demo so you can see for yourself how these features work in practice?

[DavidGW]

Larger ships are faster than small ships in X:R?

Oh dear.

Yes, they are. When boosting. Only when boosting.

Although I guess they are also faster than small ships when jumping, if that counts.

This sounds like a poor decision in so many ways, gameplay-wise. Not only does it make piracy irrelevant (want to catch my heavy freighter with your fighters? well, let me just run away), but it also makes scout ships completely useless. Whereas previously in an X fleet it made sense to have fast scout vessels to clear the area or shield for missiles/whatnot, there'd be no point if your capital ships are faster at getting around (and manoeuvrability doesn't matter since you have turrets). It also makes flying small ships yourself pointless because if you make a capship angry, you won't be able to get away.

None of this is true in X Rebirth. You can always catch cap ships, because they only boost between zones. Worst case scenario you have to chase one across a system, but most of the time you can fly faster than them. And if not, you have plenty of time when they are navigating around stations, and can't boost.

Furthermore, you can also easily outrun a cap ship because they are useless at manoeuvring. I don't think I've ever had a cap ship boost after me, but even if they could, all you would need to do is fly away on a vector not straight in front of them, and you'd be gone by the time they turn.

While I haven't played it myself, the more I read about this "feature" it seems to be a hacky workaround for bad design. Not to mention it's kind of weird and unpredictable from a control standpoint.

That's the main problem. You haven't played it, so you haven't seen cap ship behaviour in context, and therefore you can't really judge. One of the reasons the feature exists is to avoid accidental collisions with cap ships. I don't have a problem with this, because accidental collisions with cap ships (especially just after transiting an accelerator or gate) really annoyed me in X3: unavoidable insta-death.

Furthermore, I maintain that this idea is 'realistic', as a magic inertia field device would be necessary to get 'real' ships to move like they do in these games, without killing everyone inside. Perfectly reasonable to expect that the field would extend beyond the ship a small way as well.

[LittleBird]

Larger ships are faster than small ships in X:R?

Oh dear.

Yes, they are. When boosting. Only when boosting.

If you keep up this explanations people who never played X-Rebirth are confused.

So no. They are not faster!
- Small ships use Highways for long range travel between zones.
- Capital ships are way to huge for highways. They use some kind of travel engine to boost trough the empty space between zones.

[MegaJohnny]

My only gripe with cap boosters is that, while they happily use hem to get away, they don't use them to catch up unless the target boosts into another zone. If you're the pursuer you can do kludges like "withdraw from battle" to make it boost straight ahead, or tell it to travel to a zone on the other side of the target. But it'd be best if the AI would do it by itself.

[Tomonor]

I think you guys are overcomplicating this matter. It's easy to solve imo: put this feature automatically into "easy" gamemode. Let it be an optional upgrade in "medium", and disable it completely in "hard".

[Alan Phipps]

@ repatomonor: Do you mind if I watch when you suggest to CBJ having an additional "easy to solve" 'optional' gameplay function in an X game?

[Tomonor]

@ repatomonor: Do you mind if I watch when you suggest to CBJ having an additional "easy to solve" 'optional' gameplay function in an X game?

Then just make it optional like the flight assist in Rebirth? I don't know much about the development policies here. All I see is the fanbase siding 50:50 to the features introduced in Rebirth, and I'm trying to come up with a possibly easy solution.

[LittleBird]

@ repatomonor: Do you mind if I watch when you suggest to CBJ having an additional "easy to solve" 'optional' gameplay function in an X game?

Then just make it optional like the flight assist in Rebirth? I don't know much about the development policies here. All I see is the fanbase siding 50:50 to the features introduced in Rebirth, and I'm trying to come up with a possibly easy solution.

With X-Rebirth Egosoft fokused on ship systems on the surface. I am sure this is in X4 as well.
You simply need some kind of flight assist for this mechanic. And people who say they could maneuver without on the surface or - even better - inside the capital ships... are dreaming.

[DavidGW]

I can see that they might decide to switch off cap ship wake when flight assist mode is disabled. I very much doubt they would add it as an overall game toggle. If they did that, they would have to balance the game for both situations, which would be hard.

I do believe that there is an excellent chance it will be easy to mod out, though.

[adeine]

Personally would never even consider going onto a forum & posting at length about features in game I have never played. You are in fact entirely wrong about everything you posted. Piracy of capital ships is far from irrelevant (indeed it can be a lot of fun). Small ships have useful roles. As for not being able to get away from capitals, you're simply ignorant about how capital ship boosters work & the circumstances in which they can be activated. Why not try the free XR demo so you can see for yourself how these features work in practice?

I've briefly tried X:R but did not enjoy it enough to buy or seriously play it (and clearly don't remember a lot of it).

I'd agree with you if this was an X:R forum, but I think ignorant (re: X:R) posts like my own are warranted when we're talking about a sequel to a game I am familiar with and would love to see lived up to.

It's not so much that I'm saying this is how things are in X:R, clearly I don't know, but what I think is a bad idea for the reasons given.

That's the main problem. You haven't played it, so you haven't seen cap ship behaviour in context, and therefore you can't really judge. One of the reasons the feature exists is to avoid accidental collisions with cap ships. I don't have a problem with this, because accidental collisions with cap ships (especially just after transiting an accelerator or gate) really annoyed me in X3: unavoidable insta-death.

Furthermore, I maintain that this idea is 'realistic', as a magic inertia field device would be necessary to get 'real' ships to move like they do in these games, without killing everyone inside. Perfectly reasonable to expect that the field would extend beyond the ship a small way as well.

Thanks for the clarifications regarding boosting. Still seems weird to me, but at least mitigates some of the gameplay problems.

Not convinced magic inertia fields are the best way to solve the auto-pillock though (cf: hacky workaround for bad design).

[Killjaeden]

Oh dear the selective quote and call it ranting so that the rest of the post can be dismissed tactic. How sad.

OK let's examine what other parts of your post where dismissed then

The ship gravity system was put in by the developers to help the player when flying around L and XL ships. Now you want to remove it for the exact same reason?

Why do you ask why or what i'm asking about, when the answer is in the OP? Summarized for your convenience: It is less challenging and therefore less interesting with the "gravity draft assist mechanic" - which is why an option for disabling or not using it will be valuable for people who like to be challenged by the game mechanically - people who do not want the help that is forced on them

This "lets make it harder for the player" kind of thinking leads to game play that for a number of people will make some actions nigh on impossible.
Do we want a game that only a "super elite" with superb reflexes and flying / fighting skills can enjoy. I suspect that there are a number of players like myself that are at the older end of the spectrum, we sometimes need all the help we can get.

Baseless complaint, because i'm advocating for an "opt out" for the assistment system, which means players actively choose to make it harder if they use the option, not the other way round.

If the base game does not come with some control over the level of difficulty that effects this kind of thing, then is this not something that a re-balance mod should address?

Rebalance mods can't remove stuff that is hardcoded into the engine. And mechanics like flight controlls and assist systems are generally the sort of thing that is hardcoded. If there is a config flag that can be toggled to enable/disable that assist function then i achieved all i am after with this topic - as has been stated in the last sentence of the OP. But as i said, based of experience from modding games this is not the type of feature that can be influenced by modding, which is exactly the reason why this topic exists in the first place.

So the OP in this thread is pure speculation on your part, it is not based on fact

It is based on observation. I analyze and try to find out why i dont like things, and explain them, instead of living in bias.

Try and prove the opposite of what i say: That combat is not easier when the gravity draft system is "abused" (my biased description) by the player to fight capital ships. Then you would have a case on my argument beeing wrong. So far everything ive read is dodging around the topic of combat challenge while utilizing the gravity draft - which i consider as confirmation of my points made in the OP.

Which to my mind is saddening as modders usually bring new game-play and innovation to the series, it just seems that some of them, don't like Egosoft doing the same.

New features do not make everything better automatically, and/or do not make everything right the first time. Iteration is a keyword in game development for a reason. It's worth looking at a feature objectively after they are implemented.

With X-Rebirth Egosoft fokused on ship systems on the surface. I am sure this is in X4 as well.
You simply need some kind of flight assist for this mechanic. And people who say they could maneuver without on the surface or - even better - inside the capital ships... are dreaming.

What does you or egosoft let come to the conclusion that the player must fly as close to the surface of a cap ship that this feature is considered a necessity? It would rely on the assumption that
a) it is necessary for the player to be extremely close (<10m) to a capital ship to enjoy or benefit from surface details provided by subcomponents
b) that it is mechanically impossible to guide and keep a ship manually close to a capital ships surface.
Both are wrong. Subcomponents can be worked with just fine from a distance where you don't need the assist mechanic (say 50- 100m distance to the surface) most of the time. Exceptions are docks*
Players can manually stay very close to a capital just fine in X3 (it is challenging, but that doesnt matter).

So no, there is no definite reason that the game could not live without this feature. The feature is nice to have, for people who like it or feel like they need it, which is entirely ok. Some people don't want it however. In XR there is no way to "engage" this "gravity draft" mode by choice upon closing in on a cap ship, it is always forced upon you. So giving the option to "opt out" (remove this feature), or to let the player "opt in" by pressing a hotkey or button once in range of a capital ship (gravity assist off/on) would adress this conflict of interest.

*But this is not a unique problem to X, landing on a moving carrier is a staple of many flight simulators and can be made very easy by having a capital stay it's course when landing permission was granted until the ship is docked, or - even easier - to have it stop like in X3 until ships are landed or started.
___

@ repatomonor: Do you mind if I watch when you suggest to CBJ having an additional "easy to solve" 'optional' gameplay function in an X game? Very Happy

Yeah it's always fun to wield such generalisations as a club to swat all arguments with. It's not very nuanced however.
If someone would just use such generalisations and simplifications as development principle for their game there would not be a game to be played, because "its all too much work, or too difficult, or simply not worth the bother" in principle. The irony of this statement is not lost on me.

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

Here are some easy questions for you to answer then.

1) Do you play Rebirth
2) Have you ever used the "gravity draft" system
3) Have you ever captured a Fulmekron using this method or any other XL ship
4) If you have not answered yes to any of the above. How can anything you say be based on "observation"?

[Killjaeden]

If you have not answered yes to any of the above

None of those things are required to make observations.

[GCU Grey Area]

None of those things are required to make observations.

Just curious, what are you basing those observations on if you have no personal experience of the feature?

i'm advocating for an "opt out" for the assistment system, which means players actively choose to make it harder if they use the option

It's already optional - no need to waste dev time putting a toggle in game options. It only works if the player slows down to the same speed as the capital ship. Stay fast & it has no effect.

[Killjaeden]

It's already optional - no need to waste dev time putting a toggle in game options. It only works if the player slows down to the same speed as the capital ship. Stay fast & it has no effect.

That's the on the same line as saying "There is this graphical glitch, but if you don't look at it, it won't affect you.".
No this is not an option. If you slow down to stay in position relative to a ship you have no choice, because it is automatically removing any need for maneuvering and therefore the challenge of it - the point i already explained in the OP.

what are you basing those observations

Observation... as in observing other people play ?