Factions not defending themselves

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oddible
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Factions not defending themselves

Post by oddible » Tue, 4. Oct 22, 14:23

So this is the kind of thing that really grinds me. The ZYA have a RAPTOR in-sector while a Xenon K is beating up their Equipment Dock in the same sector. And it isn't moving to help. It just sits there doing nothing.

Something is off here.

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Re: Factions not defending themselves

Post by CBJ » Tue, 4. Oct 22, 14:25

Something might be off, but nobody is going to be able to tell from just a screenshot. If you think something is wrong then make a post in Tech Support, with all the information requested at the top of that forum, and provide an unmodified savegame demonstrating the situation you're describing.

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Re: Factions not defending themselves

Post by GCU Grey Area » Tue, 4. Oct 22, 15:00

oddible wrote:
Tue, 4. Oct 22, 14:23
It just sits there doing nothing.
May not be doing nothing. Looks to me that it's possible it might be guarding the nearby gate (it's a pity you don't have better ZYA rep so we could see it's current orders). Anyway, unless my knowledge of the X4 map is badly wrong that sector is Zyarth's Dominion I. If that's the case the gate near to the Raptor leads to Matrix #598. In almost every game I've played that particular sector has been absolutely seething with Xenon ships. Guarding that gate may be the best thing that Raptor can do, rather than get distracted by a single Xenon ship on the other side of the sector, leaving the gate unguarded.

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Re: Factions not defending themselves

Post by Nanook » Tue, 4. Oct 22, 17:51

Probably not the smartest thing to do, guard the door to the chicken coop when the fox is already inside. :wink:
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Re: Factions not defending themselves

Post by GCU Grey Area » Tue, 4. Oct 22, 22:57

Nanook wrote:
Tue, 4. Oct 22, 17:51
Probably not the smartest thing to do, guard the door to the chicken coop when the fox is already inside. :wink:
That analogy assumes there's only one fox. Still a reason to guard the coop door if there's a vast horde of other foxes prowling around right outside. This is what Matrix #598 looked like in one of my games: https://www.dropbox.com/s/n7z3rl0o4pa8w ... 1.jpg?dl=0

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Re: Factions not defending themselves

Post by oddible » Wed, 5. Oct 22, 00:44

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Tue, 4. Oct 22, 22:57
That analogy assumes there's only one fox. Still a reason to guard the coop door if there's a vast horde of other foxes prowling around right outside. This is what Matrix #598 looked like in one of my games: https://www.dropbox.com/s/n7z3rl0o4pa8w ... 1.jpg?dl=0
Meanwhile you've got no chickens left to guard cuz the K destroyed them all while you were guarding the door.

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Re: Factions not defending themselves

Post by GCU Grey Area » Wed, 5. Oct 22, 01:14

oddible wrote:
Wed, 5. Oct 22, 00:44
Meanwhile you've got no chickens left to guard cuz the K destroyed them all while you were guarding the door.
Suggest updating your original post with a screenshot of the empty sector if that's happened.

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Re: Factions not defending themselves

Post by Nanook » Wed, 5. Oct 22, 20:04

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Tue, 4. Oct 22, 22:57
Nanook wrote:
Tue, 4. Oct 22, 17:51
Probably not the smartest thing to do, guard the door to the chicken coop when the fox is already inside. :wink:
That analogy assumes there's only one fox. Still a reason to guard the coop door if there's a vast horde of other foxes prowling around right outside. This is what Matrix #598 looked like in one of my games: https://www.dropbox.com/s/n7z3rl0o4pa8w ... 1.jpg?dl=0
You're assuming, probably incorrectly, that all those ships are being held back by the lone Raptor, and would immediately charge into the sector if that Raptor wasn't there. That's not how the Xenon operate. If they wanted to come into the sector, they'd simply engage that lone Raptor, either dying or destroying it. Meanwhile, the Raptor is doing nothing to prevent the loss of the station. It should move to help the station, and then move back to the gate if successful. The equipment dock is a much more valuable asset than the Raptor, after all.
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Re: Factions not defending themselves

Post by GCU Grey Area » Wed, 5. Oct 22, 21:31

Nanook wrote:
Wed, 5. Oct 22, 20:04
You're assuming, probably incorrectly, that all those ships are being held back by the lone Raptor, and would immediately charge into the sector if that Raptor wasn't there. That's not how the Xenon operate. If they wanted to come into the sector, they'd simply engage that lone Raptor, either dying or destroying it. Meanwhile, the Raptor is doing nothing to prevent the loss of the station. It should move to help the station, and then move back to the gate if successful. The equipment dock is a much more valuable asset than the Raptor, after all.
Not quite. I'm assuming that the Raptor has a specific job to do - stay near the gate & attempt to destroy anything hostile that appears within radar range. I doubt it's job includes anything to do with defending a specific station. As to whether such jobs should be changed by the devs to include intervening when stations are attacked is another matter. My initial post was simply an observation that the Raptor was probably doing something (guarding a gate), rather than doing nothing, as oddible asserted.

As to the relative value of a Raptor vs. an equipment dock. This is ZYA we're talking about - they tend to lose their fleet fairly quickly after the start of a new game & without outside help often lack the resources to replace losses. Entirely possible that Raptor's the only capital ship they have left, arguably making it significantly more valuable than an equipment dock. After all, that station only remains useful while the faction still has ships for it to service.

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Re: Factions not defending themselves

Post by Nanook » Thu, 6. Oct 22, 02:53

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Wed, 5. Oct 22, 21:31
...
As to the relative value of a Raptor vs. an equipment dock. This is ZYA we're talking about...
Not really. Read the OP closely and you'll see he's using this as an example:
So this is the kind of thing that really grinds me.
This kind of thing happens all the time. I've seen it numerous times in different races' sectors. And I believe the OP posted because he believes this behaviour needs to be changed.

Let's not get bogged down in the details of one specific example. :wink:
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Re: Factions not defending themselves

Post by Raevyan » Thu, 6. Oct 22, 14:55

This is an issue since 1.0. NPC fleets only react, not every time, if the enemy is within their radar range. I remember that back in TC or even Rebirth, NPC came after me and my assets if they started to fire at stations. Factions basically do not respond to enemies killing slowly station after station in their territory.
And the few times they send some defenders, they send them one by one.
I saw HOP parking a sizeable fleet in True Sight while PAR was taking over HOP sectors without any defense.

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Re: Factions not defending themselves

Post by -=SiR KiLLaLoT=- » Thu, 6. Oct 22, 16:43

I opened a new discussion in the technical section with save and screenshots attached.
If you have any material for devs let us try to help them improve these behaviors ;)

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Re: Factions not defending themselves

Post by jlehtone » Thu, 6. Oct 22, 16:56

rene6740 wrote:
Thu, 6. Oct 22, 14:55
This is an issue since 1.0. NPC fleets only react, not every time, if the enemy is within their radar range. I remember that back in TC or even Rebirth, NPC came after me and my assets if they started to fire at stations. Factions basically do not respond to enemies killing slowly station after station in their territory.
Factions do not really attack either. The action we see is reaction too. Like the infamous ZYA "Hey, we got a ship, lets ride! Oh, a foe, shoot!". The recent "17 K on Teladi TradeStation" seen by Alan was probably a fluke too; accidental roll.

The current system where factions die left and right is "awesome" for the Teladi player; lots of sales of everything.
The current system where factions do not act in coordinated fashion (attack nor defend) is nice for "fight" player too; going into combat is not insta-death.
Hardcore fight players do not like to win hands down.
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